Redskins change nickname to Football Team

[jimboston]

I am not intentionally piling on. I don't believe you are being malicious.

I also don't think Walter looks too far removed from many of the people that I believe are most likely his distant relatives.



It's interesting, that reports they sold the land.

show

Yes, he has some “typical” Native American features... skin tone, and the nose is common to Native Americans and Jewish people.

That said...
His height, his nose, and his name all make me laugh when you tell me he was a Native American chief.

I know NOTHING about the guy. I assume he was a good guy... my default assumption about most people.
I assume he was smart... you don’t rise in politics (typically) if you’re a dummy.

If I’m insensitive then let’s go boycott Mel Brooks...

[jimboston]

These companies happen to have their own police forces and make-believe governments.

What’s the difference between this and the US Govt.?

[2dimes]

Well we recently lost his bestie Carl R, Mel probably will stop being funny here soon enough.

[jimboston]

They are both alive, and not extinct...but if you want to claim that they are extinct and their sovereign rights kept alive through agreements with the federal gov'ts over generations should be dissolved cus 'casino's in vegas are run by the mob' it won't come as much surprise to them. The US gov't has been raping them for so long it's no wonder the children come out half bred white.

I think their ‘sovereign rights’ should be terminated because...

1) They aren’t sovereign rights...they are pseudo sovereign at best.
Native American “Nations” are not independent nations in any way that a real independent nation would recognize or accept.
If you offered those same “rights” to Palestinians with Israel playing the role of the US Gov’t... you think they’d cheer and accept it?
Do you think these “Native American Nations” would be able to viably exist today as independent nations?

2) They perpetuate a ‘second class citizen’ or “us / them” mentality that ultimately harms more Native American people than it helps.

I personally don’t care what your girlfriend and her mom look like or what % blood in Native. I hope for your sake she’s a hot Pocahontas stereotype but beyond that... nope. They’re both human and should be able to have opportunities to enrich and advance themselves. Native American ‘Elders’ prefer to keep the status quo to enrich themselves at the expense of the people they purportedly are supposed to serve.

Yes... our predecessors/the US Gov’t committed many many many atrocities against Natives. Some were unintentional (re. viruses), most were very intentional, and some were retaliatory. This happened and we should be aware of it and educated about it and we should work to make sure it doesn’t happen again. We can’t rollback history, and white people aren’t just gonna leave and go back to Europe. We need to acknowledge our past, but we also need to move on.

[jimboston]

Well we recently lost his bestie Carl R, Mel probably will stop being funny here soon enough.

Mel Brooks will only stop being funny because liberals will complain and censor every joke.

[2dimes]

I mean he will stop making jokes because, ded.

[mookiemcgee]

white people aren’t just gonna leave and go back to Europe. We need to acknowledge our past, but we also need to move on.

I don't think anyone suggested white people should leave.

I don't see how Natives operating Casino's on the small amount of land that us and state gov'ts agreed to leave as theirs, precludes you from 'moving on'. Plenty of state/cities and other locals have legalized casinos, this isn't something that is anyway some exclusive right, so how does it affect you at all?

I understand you didn't say it specifically but Saxi started with "Native Americans are extinct", and you then said "I agree with saxi". I appreciate you have since explained some of how your position and his own vary... but are you sticking with him on "Native Americans don't exist anymore"? Or this this really just about taxes, and issues with Tribal legal status?

(and yes, she's hot but she's west coast Indian so not really the same sterotype as Pocahontas. Also I don't really mind you calling her my girlfriend, but she is pretty adamant I use fiancee. I do sometimes slip)

[jimboston]

white people aren’t just gonna leave and go back to Europe. We need to acknowledge our past, but we also need to move on.

I don't think anyone suggested white people should leave.

I don't see how Natives operating Casino's on the small amount of land that us and state gov'ts agreed to leave as theirs, precludes you from 'moving on'. Plenty of state/cities and other locals have legalized casinos, this isn't something that is anyway some exclusive right, so how does it affect you at all?

I understand you didn't say it specifically but Saxi started with "Native Americans are extinct", and you then said "I agree with saxi". I appreciate you have since explained some of how your position and his own vary... but are you sticking with him on "Native Americans don't exist anymore"? Or this this really just about taxes, and issues with Tribal legal status?

(and yes, she's hot but she's west coast Indian so not really the same sterotype as Pocahontas. Also I don't really mind you calling her my girlfriend, but she is pretty adamant I use fiancee. I do sometimes slip)

I slipped on the fiancé.... I was mid stream and didn’t wanna open a new window to figure out if she was your wife, girlfriend, fiancé, or f*ck buddy.

Regarding the “hotness” factor... Pics or it didn’t happen.

Seriously though... I’m not gonna use language like Saxi and clearly don’t agree with everything he said.

I do recognize there are remnants of Native American culture, and Native Americans are welcome to retain and perpetuate and develop that to their heart’s content. I have no problem with that anymore than I have with Italian Americans claiming pizza and Irish Americans claiming Corned Beef and Cabbage. (Why Irish Americans would wanna claim this is a different question.)

That said... I agree with Saxi in the sense that the whole pseudo-independent nation thing has gotta go.

I do think it is abused by elites... both Tribal elites and white casino operators... but that isn’t my main problem with it.

My main problem is that I believe the mentality of “us/them” it perpetuates, along with the abuse by many Tribal Elders who use this system to better their lives at the expense of their people, ultimately HARMS more people who are part of these Tribes than it helps. Poverty on reservations is rampant, healthcare is bad, nutrition is poor, education sucks, etc. It needs to end.

[mrswdk]

Don't forget how many tribal elders have definitely been ignoring social distancing, so they're also harming their communities in that way.

[mookiemcgee]

Don't forget how many tribal elders have definitely been ignoring social distancing, so they're also harming their communities in that way.

Good point, Natives should forgive the white man and blame the 'Virus creator' country, China... because they are the most recent to attempt genocide of the Native population.

[mookiemcgee]

white people aren’t just gonna leave and go back to Europe. We need to acknowledge our past, but we also need to move on.

I don't think anyone suggested white people should leave.

I don't see how Natives operating Casino's on the small amount of land that us and state gov'ts agreed to leave as theirs, precludes you from 'moving on'. Plenty of state/cities and other locals have legalized casinos, this isn't something that is anyway some exclusive right, so how does it affect you at all?

I understand you didn't say it specifically but Saxi started with "Native Americans are extinct", and you then said "I agree with saxi". I appreciate you have since explained some of how your position and his own vary... but are you sticking with him on "Native Americans don't exist anymore"? Or this this really just about taxes, and issues with Tribal legal status?

(and yes, she's hot but she's west coast Indian so not really the same sterotype as Pocahontas. Also I don't really mind you calling her my girlfriend, but she is pretty adamant I use fiancee. I do sometimes slip)

I slipped on the fiancé.... I was mid stream and didn’t wanna open a new window to figure out if she was your wife, girlfriend, fiancé, or f*ck buddy.

Regarding the “hotness” factor... Pics or it didn’t happen.

Seriously though... I’m not gonna use language like Saxi and clearly don’t agree with everything he said.

I do recognize there are remnants of Native American culture, and Native Americans are welcome to retain and perpetuate and develop that to their heart’s content. I have no problem with that anymore than I have with Italian Americans claiming pizza and Irish Americans claiming Corned Beef and Cabbage. (Why Irish Americans would wanna claim this is a different question.)

That said... I agree with Saxi in the sense that the whole pseudo-independent nation thing has gotta go.

I do think it is abused by elites... both Tribal elites and white casino operators... but that isn’t my main problem with it.

My main problem is that I believe the mentality of “us/them” it perpetuates, along with the abuse by many Tribal Elders who use this system to better their lives at the expense of their people, ultimately HARMS more people who are part of these Tribes than it helps. Poverty on reservations is rampant, healthcare is bad, nutrition is poor, education sucks, etc. It needs to end.

Well I didn't spend any time in the thread saying there isn't 'problems', on actual reservations life can be really bad. I wouldn't want to live on her familys rez. In regards to their ability to do what they want on their land, I say that was the bargin struck, and many on the rez say you would have to kill them before they'd leave that land. So if that's the cost of ending reservations... armed conflict with the people living there... how do you approach 'ending' it?

That said some tribes have in effect sold out and entered licence agreements with casino operators. Other haven't! That doesn't mean anyone should denying their existence, nor does it mean all tribes have the same requirement or make the same decision about working with a company like Caesars.

Also, I would not be comfortable posting her pictures here. I fear Saxi would imagine strangling her while he masturbates.

[jimboston]

Well I didn't spend any time in the thread saying there isn't 'problems', on actual reservations life can be really bad. I wouldn't want to live on her familys rez. In regards to their ability to do what they want on their land, I say that was the bargin struck, and many on the rez say you would have to kill them before they'd leave that land. So if that's the cost of ending reservations... armed conflict with the people living there... how do you approach 'ending' it?

There are ways to end the Reservation System without armed conflict.

I’d start by NOT issuing new charters or expanding existing charters.

I’d heavily tax private companies that do enter into agreements with Native Tribes... maybe we can’t tax Native Tribes but we can tax private corporations and they have to move money through the US Banking System, so we could certainly make it less profitable for private corporations to tax advantage of Tribes. (You know they pay off the leaders to sign sweetheart deals. So the leaders get wealthy and the average Tribal member gets a low-wage job in a Casino.)

I would then negotiate with the remaining tribes buy-out plans... you could also create laws that make it obviously more beneficial to end the system.

People wouldn’t necessarily have to move...you’d just incorporate settlements as normal American towns.

I am not advocating sending in tanks. I’m advocating a slow measured process that ultimately ends the system.

Also, I would not be comfortable posting her pictures here.

Yeah, I figured. Ugly.

[Jdsizzleslice]

I’m insensitive because I found the name of a Native American chief to be humorous?

You need to thicken your blood.

This is seriously a joke right out of a Mel Brooks movie.

It’s so “comic-booky”... like Peter Parker, Lois Lane, Lex Luthor, J. Jonah Jameson, etc.

It’s funny. If you think it’s not funny you have no sense of humor.

"You have no sense of humor because you didn't laugh at my joke" (that no one else thought was funny).

I said who designed the logo was meaningless. One person may have profited from designing a logo 50 years ago. That doesn’t mean it’s important in the debate today whether or not the logo has value. Another way of phrasing it... one person’s opinion is not important (even if he’s from said group) especially since he presumably [if he designed the logo] got paid to design it or to act as a consultant on the design.

Um. It's not meaningless? He designed the logo to represent Native Americans? To represent his own heritage? To promote Native Americans? How can you say that this is unimportant in this conversation? I swear man, you're obtuse.

I DID NOT SAY that the sum total opinion of Native Americans was unimportant in the debate.

I think Native Americans and the owners of the franchise are the only people whose opinions should matter. IMHO if a majority of Native Americans are unoffended and/or take some pride in the current logo... then the rest of us should all not care. (Obviously the owners of the franchise can/should also be able to do whatever the f*** they want too...)

As previously cited, most either don't care or are unoffended. There have been multiple polls done throughout the past two decades that yield the same results.

As a person of Irish American Heritage I am not ‘offended’ by the Fighting Irish logo or the Boston Celtics logo. Quite the contrary, in my youth I took some sense of pride in these logos and thought the represented the ‘fighting spirit’ of the Irish or some such bullshit.

Perhaps Native Americans feel the same way about some of these logos. I don’t know. I do know, that if Native Americans are cool with the Redskins logo then liberal know-it-all’s should just shut up.

I agree with this. Celtics, Fighting Irish, Cowboys, Mountaineers. Hell, I wouldn't be offended if a sporting team decided that they wanted their mascot to be the "Rednecks." I'd laugh, it'd be cool to see.

BTW... why does no one complain about the Syracuse Orangemen? This university’s team name is insensitive to Irish Catholics and should be changed immediately. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangemen

I've never heard of this one before... Is this in reference to William III?


But seriously, what happened to this topic lolol.

[saxitoxin]

Well I didn't spend any time in the thread saying there isn't 'problems', on actual reservations life can be really bad. I wouldn't want to live on her familys rez. In regards to their ability to do what they want on their land, I say that was the bargin struck, and many on the rez say you would have to kill them before they'd leave that land. So if that's the cost of ending reservations... armed conflict with the people living there... how do you approach 'ending' it?

Yet their land keeps expanding from its treaty-agreed boundaries through trust land acquisitions, particularly under the Obama regime. The tribes take their billions in slots and roulette earnings, direct some of it into Obama regime political campaigns, then in return the Bureau of Indian Affairs acquires off-reservation land and places it under tribal governance. Interestingly, the tribes usually have little interest in acquiring historic properties or locations of their sacred trinkets off-reservation but seem to only want to expand into new properties that place them closer to population centers whereupon they promptly throw up casinos, fireworks stands, pot dispensaries, and cigarette shops.

Thankfully, President Trump has called for the Indian Reorganization Act to be reviewed to stop this corrupt process.

[jimboston]

I’m insensitive because I found the name of a Native American chief to be humorous?

You need to thicken your blood.

This is seriously a joke right out of a Mel Brooks movie.

It’s so “comic-booky”... like Peter Parker, Lois Lane, Lex Luthor, J. Jonah Jameson, etc.

It’s funny. If you think it’s not funny you have no sense of humor.

"You have no sense of humor because you didn't laugh at my joke" (that no one else thought was funny).

You have no sense of humor because you have no sense of humor.

... and now you’re attacking me when I’m mostly agreeing with you.

I said who designed the logo was meaningless. One person may have profited from designing a logo 50 years ago. That doesn’t mean it’s important in the debate today whether or not the logo has value. Another way of phrasing it... one person’s opinion is not important (even if he’s from said group) especially since he presumably [if he designed the logo] got paid to design it or to act as a consultant on the design.

Um. It's not meaningless? He designed the logo to represent Native Americans? To represent his own heritage? To promote Native Americans? How can you say that this is unimportant in this conversation? I swear man, you're obtuse.

ONE person’s opinion is really only important in this debate if he’s the sole owner / controlling partner of the franchise.

The fact that the designer or consultant is not really relevant because he’s ONE SINGLE PERSON.
One person does not speak for all Native Americans, one person does not even speak for their tribe.
Not even if he’s the chief. Especially if he was the chief 50 years ago.

If current Native Americans hold the logo in higher regard because this man helped create it... THAT matters.
That is a secondary effect which I addresses in the section. It is not a primary effect and doesn’t require an edit of my point.

I DID NOT SAY that the sum total opinion of Native Americans was unimportant in the debate.

I think Native Americans and the owners of the franchise are the only people whose opinions should matter. IMHO if a majority of Native Americans are unoffended and/or take some pride in the current logo... then the rest of us should all not care. (Obviously the owners of the franchise can/should also be able to do whatever the f*** they want too...)

As previously cited, most either don't care or are unoffended. There have been multiple polls done throughout the past two decades that yield the same results.

Right... so given that, assuming this is true, then it seems we’re basically in agreement here. So why are you attacking me?
Are you unable to follow the conversation? So you just assume I’m disagreeing with you?

As a person of Irish American Heritage I am not ‘offended’ by the Fighting Irish logo or the Boston Celtics logo. Quite the contrary, in my youth I took some sense of pride in these logos and thought the represented the ‘fighting spirit’ of the Irish or some such bullshit.

Perhaps Native Americans feel the same way about some of these logos. I don’t know. I do know, that if Native Americans are cool with the Redskins logo then liberal know-it-all’s should just shut up.

I agree with this. Celtics, Fighting Irish, Cowboys, Mountaineers. Hell, I wouldn't be offended if a sporting team decided that they wanted their mascot to be the "Rednecks." I'd laugh, it'd be cool to see.

Cowboys and Mountaineers aren’t ethnicities or races.

Cowboys and Mountaineers aren’t named after a hate-group like the Orangemen.

BTW... why does no one complain about the Syracuse Orangemen? This university’s team name is insensitive to Irish Catholics and should be changed immediately. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangemen

I've never heard of this one before... Is this in reference to William III?

The Orangemen are named after William of Orange, yes... but he wasn’t involved in the formation of this anti-catholic Irish hate group in the US.
Links were provided for further study. Most people don’t know the Syracuse team is named after a hate group.

(I honestly don;t really care about this name either... I just think it’s funny that it’s never mentioned, but the Fighting Irish name comes up once in awhile.)

[jimboston]

Well I didn't spend any time in the thread saying there isn't 'problems', on actual reservations life can be really bad. I wouldn't want to live on her familys rez. In regards to their ability to do what they want on their land, I say that was the bargin struck, and many on the rez say you would have to kill them before they'd leave that land. So if that's the cost of ending reservations... armed conflict with the people living there... how do you approach 'ending' it?

Yet their land keeps expanding from its treaty-agreed boundaries through trust land acquisitions, particularly under the Obama regime. The tribes take their billions in slots and roulette earnings, direct some of it into Obama regime political campaigns, then in return the Bureau of Indian Affairs acquires off-reservation land and places it under tribal governance. Interestingly, the tribes usually have little interest in acquiring historic properties or locations of their sacred trinkets off-reservation but seem to only want to expand into new properties that place them closer to population centers whereupon they promptly throw up casinos, fireworks stands, pot dispensaries, and cigarette shops.

Thankfully, President Trump has called for the Indian Reorganization Act to be reviewed to stop this corrupt process.

He’s not 100% wrong.

In Massachusetts one tribe just a few years ago got ‘recognized’ by the Feds. They didn’t have a large enough population qualify, so they pseudo-merged with members of a completely different tribe (one they used to war with in pre-colonial and colonial times). The new ‘merged’ tribe now had a big enough population to qualify.

They then immediately acquired property (or more precisely acquired the rights to buy the property) and began the process of getting this property certified. They got the money for the land by making a deal with some big casino chain. The land they wanted to get certified is NOT in their ‘traditional’ area... it is in the area of a third tribe (that is also too small to get recognized). The land however is in Southeast Mass, and right off a major highway, great location to capture traffic from Boston that would otherwise head down to CT casinos.

The deal (as of this writing) hadn’t finalized... it may still be in litigation. The funny thing is, one of the roadblocks to the Federal Recognition of the land was that 3rd Tribe. They sued to prevent the 1st Tribe from getting land Federally Recognized in a region that was historically their area.

[Jdsizzleslice]

You have no sense of humor because you have no sense of humor.

... and now you’re attacking me when I’m mostly agreeing with you.

Your reasoning has circular logic, just like the modern (changed) definition of racism.

ONE person’s opinion is really only important in this debate if he’s the sole owner / controlling partner of the franchise.

The fact that the designer or consultant is not really relevant because he’s ONE SINGLE PERSON.
One person does not speak for all Native Americans, one person does not even speak for their tribe.
Not even if he’s the chief. Especially if he was the chief 50 years ago.

If current Native Americans hold the logo in higher regard because this man helped create it... THAT matters.
That is a secondary effect which I addresses in the section. It is not a primary effect and doesn’t require an edit of my point.

Dude, you're taking this way to literally here. It's not that one person that designed it, rather the support that the individual got from expressing his ideas and viewpoints.

Similar story in tandem? Betsy Ross, making the first American Flag. By your logic, only Betsy Ross is able to hold the views of what the American Flag stands for.

Also, I don't get why the Indian Chief of a tribe wouldn't represent his tribe...

Right... so given that, assuming this is true, then it seems we’re basically in agreement here. So why are you attacking me?
Are you unable to follow the conversation? So you just assume I’m disagreeing with you?

Where am I attacking you?

Cowboys and Mountaineers aren’t ethnicities or races.

Cowboys and Mountaineers aren’t named after a hate-group like the Orangemen.

Redskins aren't either man. It's in reference to a particular group or people, just like a Cowboy.

The Orangemen are named after William of Orange, yes... but he wasn’t involved in the formation of this anti-catholic Irish hate group in the US.
Links were provided for further study. Most people don’t know the Syracuse team is named after a hate group.

(I honestly don;t really care about this name either... I just think it’s funny that it’s never mentioned, but the Fighting Irish name comes up once in awhile.)

You just referenced the Wiki page, what studys in particular are you trying to cite here?

[saxitoxin]

Well I didn't spend any time in the thread saying there isn't 'problems', on actual reservations life can be really bad. I wouldn't want to live on her familys rez. In regards to their ability to do what they want on their land, I say that was the bargin struck, and many on the rez say you would have to kill them before they'd leave that land. So if that's the cost of ending reservations... armed conflict with the people living there... how do you approach 'ending' it?

Yet their land keeps expanding from its treaty-agreed boundaries through trust land acquisitions, particularly under the Obama regime. The tribes take their billions in slots and roulette earnings, direct some of it into Obama regime political campaigns, then in return the Bureau of Indian Affairs acquires off-reservation land and places it under tribal governance. Interestingly, the tribes usually have little interest in acquiring historic properties or locations of their sacred trinkets off-reservation but seem to only want to expand into new properties that place them closer to population centers whereupon they promptly throw up casinos, fireworks stands, pot dispensaries, and cigarette shops.

Thankfully, President Trump has called for the Indian Reorganization Act to be reviewed to stop this corrupt process.

He’s not 100% wrong.

In Massachusetts one tribe just a few years ago got ‘recognized’ by the Feds. They didn’t have a large enough population qualify, so they pseudo-merged with members of a completely different tribe (one they used to war with in pre-colonial and colonial times). The new ‘merged’ tribe now had a big enough population to qualify.

They then immediately acquired property (or more precisely acquired the rights to buy the property) and began the process of getting this property certified. They got the money for the land by making a deal with some big casino chain. The land they wanted to get certified is NOT in their ‘traditional’ area... it is in the area of a third tribe (that is also too small to get recognized). The land however is in Southeast Mass, and right off a major highway, great location to capture traffic from Boston that would otherwise head down to CT casinos.

The deal (as of this writing) hadn’t finalized... it may still be in litigation. The funny thing is, one of the roadblocks to the Federal Recognition of the land was that 3rd Tribe. They sued to prevent the 1st Tribe from getting land Federally Recognized in a region that was historically their area.

The Duwamish Tribe in Washington state has been trying for decades to gain federal recognition.

Three other tribes - the Muckleshoot, Puyallup and Tulalip - have been spending a fortune on lobbyists to block them.

The Duwamish Tribe's traditional lands are in downtown Seattle, the state's major population center. These other tribes all operate casinos that people from Seattle have to travel 45 minutes to 2 hours to get to. If the Duwamish were to be federally recognized they could devastate the casino business of the other tribes by opening one up right in the middle of the city. In the case of the Puyallup, every Puyallup adult gets a $36,000 check per year from their casino revenue. So just for drawing breath - not even requiring any work - they get a $36,000 bonus every year (all of which is free of federal income tax). (The Tribal Council uses direct payments instead of providing any kind of government services to ensure the tribal elders continue to get the votes to be reelected because the elders are getting kickbacks many times that amount in consulting fees from the Vegas corporations that they've given the contract to for operating their casinos.)

These noble peoples who are one with the Earth are such an inspiration to the materialist white man.

[mookiemcgee]

These noble peoples who are one with the Earth are such an inspiration...

I thought they were extinct? Did you bring them back to live just so you could make fun of the for embracing American capitalist values in order to survive?

You say they are extinct, you make fun of them and critcize them for "operating business' off the rez and for doing what you would never criticize your president for doing (running casinos), are you just mad because the Aryan Nation can't gain tax exempt status to start it's own casino's too?

[jimboston]

You have no sense of humor because you have no sense of humor.

... and now you’re attacking me when I’m mostly agreeing with you.

Your reasoning has circular logic...

Not applying logic here... just stating the fact that you have no sense of humor.

ONE person’s opinion is really only important in this debate if he’s the sole owner / controlling partner of the franchise.

The fact that the designer or consultant is not really relevant because he’s ONE SINGLE PERSON.
One person does not speak for all Native Americans, one person does not even speak for their tribe.
Not even if he’s the chief. Especially if he was the chief 50 years ago.

If current Native Americans hold the logo in higher regard because this man helped create it... THAT matters.
That is a secondary effect which I addresses in the section. It is not a primary effect and doesn’t require an edit of my point.

Dude, you're taking this way to literally here. It's not that one person that designed it, rather the support that the individual got from expressing his ideas and viewpoints.

You stated his involvement in its’ creation as some how relevant to the current debate.

I showed how it’s not.

Similar story in tandem? Betsy Ross, making the first American Flag. By your logic, only Betsy Ross is able to hold the views of what the American Flag stands for.

This analogy doesn’t hold up. If anything it proves my point.

Also, I don't get why the Indian Chief of a tribe wouldn't represent his tribe...

He represents his tribe... but 1) that was 50 years ago; 2) he was PAID (presumably) to create the logo, so biased much; 3) he can represent his tribe but his one view / one opinion is no more valid than any other Native American’s opinion on the current matter.

Right... so given that, assuming this is true, then it seems we’re basically in agreement here. So why are you attacking me?
Are you unable to follow the conversation? So you just assume I’m disagreeing with you?

Where am I attacking you?

Where aren’t you?

Cowboys and Mountaineers aren’t ethnicities or races.

Cowboys and Mountaineers aren’t named after a hate-group like the Orangemen.

Redskins aren't either man. It's in reference to a particular group or people, just like a Cowboy.

Redskin is a racial slur based on a person’s race/ethnicity.

Cowboy is not a racial slur.
Mountaineer is not a racial slur.
These words are either careers or lifestyles... they are not race/ethic based slurs.

They’re not comparable to “Redskin”.

The Orangemen are named after William of Orange, yes... but he wasn’t involved in the formation of this anti-catholic Irish hate group in the US.
Links were provided for further study. Most people don’t know the Syracuse team is named after a hate group.

(I honestly don;t really care about this name either... I just think it’s funny that it’s never mentioned, but the Fighting Irish name comes up once in awhile.)

You just referenced the Wiki page, what studys in particular are you trying to cite here?

The links were provides for further study... so you can educate yourself about the history of the Orangemen.
I did not provide links to academic studies.

Do you understand English?

[Jdsizzleslice]

Not applying logic here... just stating the fact that you have no sense of humor.

Your opinions aren't facts. They're just your opinions. Feel free to have the opinion that I have no sense of humor if you wish, but that doesn't make it fact.

You stated his involvement in its’ creation as some how relevant to the current debate.

I showed how it’s not.

Jim, you didn't show anything. Agree to disagree I suppose, but the fact that a Native American who designed a Native American logo supported by many Native American people is relevant.

This analogy doesn’t hold up. If anything it proves my point.

How does it support your point? Your point is that the person who designed the logo shouldn't represent those of which the logo exemplifies. By that logic, no one should be able to tell you what the American flag represents except Betsy Ross herself (because she designed it).

He represents his tribe... but 1) that was 50 years ago; 2) he was PAID (presumably) to create the logo, so biased much; 3) he can represent his tribe but his one view / one opinion is no more valid than any other Native American’s opinion on the current matter.

1) So what if that was 50 years ago? How does that have any relevance to the conversation?

2) So what if he was paid to create the logo? Can a person be paid to design a logo and still have the support of the community to which he belongs? Can that same community see that logo as a sense of pride for themselves if the original logo creator was paid?

3) His viewpoint was backed up by the community, which overwhelmingly doesn't have a negative view of the term Redskins.

Where aren’t you?

Haven't we been through this before? Can you provide specifics?

Redskin is a racial slur based on a person’s race/ethnicity.

Cowboy is not a racial slur.
Mountaineer is not a racial slur.
These words are either careers or lifestyles... they are not race/ethic based slurs.

They’re not comparable to “Redskin”.

That's ok, we can agree to disagree. Just know that according to Native American people, the term Redskin isn't a slur. Most don't care. So none of these terms are slurs.

Using the word Cowboy as an example, refers to (in the United States) stereotypical white males who were ranchers out West. I understand your point between distinguishing occupations and groups of people.

The links were provides for further study... so you can educate yourself about the history of the Orangemen.
I did not provide links to academic studies.

Do you understand English?

The Wiki article for William III never uses the term "orangemen" in it so I was asking you to provide those academic studies because your original link doesn't really talk about the term in a derogatory way in which you originally suggest.

Si, hablo ingles muy bueno. Mi español? Mas o menos.

[Dukasaur]

Furthermore, I didn’t comment in anyway on his Native American heritage. I don’t care, and whether or not the logo was designed by an “actual Native American” or not is IMHO meaningless to the logo’s value today. Finally, he may have Native American blood, whatever that means... but he also must’ve had significant German or Jewish German blood. It’s also kinda funny that a guy with some German.Jewish roots winds up running an Native American Tribe.

If you don’t think that’s funny you need to thicken your skin a bit. That’s something out of a Mel Brooks movie.

Um. Why does it not matter whether or not a claimed racist logo was designed by a person of the same heritage of the logo and didn't find it racist?

For the same reason that it doesn't matter that the swastika was first used by some pre-Hindu animist priests 3000 years ago. It doesn't matter what a symbol meant in the past; what matters is what it means to people today. You've been on Conquer Club long enough to have seen a few of the dickheads who try to fly a swastika in their avatar, and then justify it by saying "I have a right to use a swastika because I'm Hindu." To which we always reply, "Bullshit!" because it is. To a person living in the 21st Century, a swastika means "Nazi". The fact that it was a Hindu symbol for "good health" before the Nazis stole it is historically interesting, but completely irrelevant. No actual Hindu uses it to identify himself in the 21st Century because he knows what it has come to mean. The meaning of words changes over time, and so does the meaning of symbols.

[Jdsizzleslice]

Furthermore, I didn’t comment in anyway on his Native American heritage. I don’t care, and whether or not the logo was designed by an “actual Native American” or not is IMHO meaningless to the logo’s value today. Finally, he may have Native American blood, whatever that means... but he also must’ve had significant German or Jewish German blood. It’s also kinda funny that a guy with some German.Jewish roots winds up running an Native American Tribe.

If you don’t think that’s funny you need to thicken your skin a bit. That’s something out of a Mel Brooks movie.

Um. Why does it not matter whether or not a claimed racist logo was designed by a person of the same heritage of the logo and didn't find it racist?

For the same reason that it doesn't matter that the swastika was first used by some pre-Hindu animist priests 3000 years ago. It doesn't matter what a symbol meant in the past; what matters is what it means to people today. You've been on Conquer Club long enough to have seen a few of the dickheads who try to fly a swastika in their avatar, and then justify it by saying "I have a right to use a swastika because I'm Hindu." To which we always reply, "Bullshit!" because it is. To a person living in the 21st Century, a swastika means "Nazi". The fact that it was a Hindu symbol for "good health" before the Nazis stole it is historically interesting, but completely irrelevant. No actual Hindu uses it to identify himself in the 21st Century because he knows what it has come to mean. The meaning of words changes over time, and so does the meaning of symbols.

By that same logic, the Confederate flag should be socially acceptable to fly because today it means "The South" in general. Forget the meaning it had in the past of advocating for slavery, today it means the Southern United States!

[jimboston]

Yes, he has some “typical” Native American features... skin tone, and the nose is common to Native Americans and Jewish people.

That said...
His height, his nose, and his name all make me laugh when you tell me he was a Native American chief.

I know NOTHING about the guy. I assume he was a good guy... my default assumption about most people.
I assume he was smart... you don’t rise in politics (typically) if you’re a dummy.

If I’m insensitive then let’s go boycott Mel Brooks...

No one commented on this?

[jimboston]

blah blah blah

You are boring to talk to and not too bright.
I’m done with you for the moment.