Incarceration rates around the world

[thegreekdog]

Are there statistics showing the number of years, on average, someone is incarcerated in the various countries?

By the way mrs. - you still haven't taken me up on my offer to fight about this... I'd still rather live in the US.

Dunno. Do your own damn Googling.

And okay. How about: America or North Korea?

America

Duk I'm not saying that the U.S. Numbers are artificially high. What im saying is most likely China's numbers are artificially LOW. 164 for China is insanely low considering all of the human rights violations that have been observed.
Also:

Although the Chinese government classifies the number of inmates in its prison and administrative detention facilities as a state secret, the Laogai Research Foundation estimates that the Laogai System is currently comprised of over one thousand detention facilities in which millions of individuals are imprisoned. Since its inception, we estimate that over fifty million people have been incarcerated in the Laogai System.

IF we assume that the number is roughly the same over the past 65yrs. The number in this is just under 10million. Probably between 7-8 million. (7.69 ish)
That assumes that the number is the same which i highly doubt b/c of Mao's popularity during his reign. And the amount of death caused by some of his policies. So i'll estimate that while the number is probably closer to 10 million, 7.7-8 mill is a safe bet.
The only thing is that China has over 1 billion people.. This could cause the number to seem artificially low ( the only thing that might drive down the number).
However the number estimated in the wikipedia link is about "prison population of 2,300,000" which resulted in a number of 164. I think that china, while it may not be as high as the US is probably closer to the 400-500 range.

I won't dispute your numbers because you've obviously studied the issue and I haven't. I certainly have no doubt that China falsifies its statistics and whatever the real numbers are, they are higher than reported. Yet, even the numbers you cite give you a final result in the 400-500 range, which is considerably lower than the (relatively undisputed) 650 given for the U.S.

Even if the numbers were the same, that would still be a horrific condemnation of U.S. policy. China is a repressive dictatorship. For a country like the U.S. which masquerades as the world's bastion of freedom, to even be flirting with numbers in the same range as China's is an embarrassment. It turns out that the alleged land of the free is actually the home of a great many unfree people.

Even if China's numbers were a little higher, I would still consider that an indictment of U.S. policies. Slapping yourself on the back for being a little less repressive than a dictatorship like China is sort of like bragging that you have a better health care system than Liberia, or a better highway network than Uzbekistan.

Yeah, so look guys - the question you're asking is "would you rather live in the United States or [insert country] because more people go to jail in the United States than in [insert country]."

So I guess my question is - what's your point? Do you think you can get to that in this thread? Are you saying China > than United States? Does whether or not you are more likely to go to prison (statistically speaking*) factor that much into your decision to live in China versus the United States?

* Note, I use "statistically speaking" because I'm fairly certain I would not go to prison for anything in China, just like I'm also not going to prison for anything in the United States.

[notyou2]

Tax evasion......

[mrswdk]

Yeah, so look guys - the question you're asking is "would you rather live in the United States or [insert country] because more people go to jail in the United States than in [insert country]."

So I guess my question is - what's your point? Do you think you can get to that in this thread? Are you saying China > than United States? Does whether or not you are more likely to go to prison (statistically speaking*) factor that much into your decision to live in China versus the United States?

1 - kudos for acknowledging the statistics. You are the first American to come into this thread and do something other than spout propaganda
2 - I would honestly rather move back to Beijing than any part of the USA

Incarceration rates are a symptom, not the whole picture - it's a question of freedom. I don't wanna live somewhere where every aspect of my life is regulated to asphyxiation.

It's not just China. China has only become the focus of this thread because the CIA cybertrolls are desperately trying to turn the spotlight away from America and onto someone else. Look at all the other many, many countries on that list who fall miles below America for incarceration rates. I'd rather move to Malaysia, Vietnam or New Zealand. Kenya, South Korea or most of Europe (Spain's great but f*ck France). There's so much freedom out there - why would I move to the US?

[Symmetry]

Yeah, so look guys - the question you're asking is "would you rather live in the United States or [insert country] because more people go to jail in the United States than in [insert country]."

So I guess my question is - what's your point? Do you think you can get to that in this thread? Are you saying China > than United States? Does whether or not you are more likely to go to prison (statistically speaking*) factor that much into your decision to live in China versus the United States?

1 - kudos for acknowledging the statistics. You are the first American to come into this thread and do something other than spout propaganda
2 - I would honestly rather move back to Beijing than any part of the USA

Incarceration rates are a symptom, not the whole picture - it's a question of freedom. I don't wanna live somewhere where every aspect of my life is regulated to asphyxiation.

It's not just China. China has only become the focus of this thread because the CIA cybertrolls are desperately trying to turn the spotlight away from America and onto someone else. Look at all the other many, many countries on that list who fall miles below America for incarceration rates. I'd rather move to Malaysia, Vietnam or New Zealand. Kenya, South Korea or most of Europe (Spain's great but f*ck France). There's so much freedom out there - why would I move to the US?

Indeed, you'd probably end up on one of those "To Catch a Predator" shows.

[apey]

Alot of prisoners in the US are in because of sentencing laws
I know of a man that is in federal prison for the next 15 years and has already served 10 yrs because he had a little over an ounce of marijuana
He had spent two prior short terms in prison one for assault and one for another minor drug offense.
I think alot of it is bullshit.

[Metsfanmax]

The government stated it was going to close laogai several years ago, and the 'Laogai Research Foundation' (everyone's apparent go to for anti-laogai research) seems to have fallen completely silent on laogai in the years since. Given that the government publicly stated it was ending laogai, and the main anti-laogai lobbying group has stopped claiming that laogai exist,

No. Here is LRF's current stance on the issue. They argue that the laogai still exist for all practical purposes, just under a different name:

Although the Communist Party nominally ended the laogai labor camp and recently formally abolished the laojiao labor camp, the fundamental structure of the Laogai System remains intact: the Party still operates a network of prison factories for convicted criminals and administrative detention facilities for non-criminal offenders in which inmates are forced to perform arduous labor and undergo intense political indoctrination. Administrative detention facilities in which inmates are forced to labor and endure political indoctrination include legal education centers, drug rehabilitation centers, and custody and education centers.

the onus is on the random internet guy to prove his claim that he knows better than everyone else.

This conveniently ignores the fact that the only reason we have to debate about these shitty numbers is that the Chinese government refuses to specify how many people it actually detains. The US does detain a lot of people but at least we know how many and where they are (at least, the ones on US soil anyway). I shouldn't have to say how much of an embarrassment it must be to try and defend a country that won't even say who it is imprisoning or executing. That's North Korea levels of shoddiness, not the behavior one expects from a country that obeys the rule of law.

I mean, China has been getting better at this with time, but it still has a ways to go.

The article gives a figure of 1,045 detention centers, which it credits to the Laogai Research Foundation's (LRF's) 2008 handbook. It then ignores the same handbook's estimate of 500,000 - 2 million people detained in those camps

rishaed and I already explained what is going on here, and I don't understand why you ignored it. The 500,000-2 million claim is just for the laojiao, not the laogai and the other detention centers. So the total number of people in detention camps that they estimate will be higher than that number.

in favor of the much higher figure of 6.8 million quoted in the Epoch Times, which claims it got that number from the LRF but doesn't actually provide a source.

In fact, I spent a little time searching for a source for the 6.8 million figure and could only find articles claiming that 6.8 million is the LRF's figure, but never actually providing a reference. Given that the LRF itself explicitly says 500,000 - 2 million, it would seem that 500,000 - 2 million is the safest figure. That is why I have continued using that figure and that is why you now have two eggs on your face instead of your previous total of one.

1) Even if the 6.8 million claim is completely made up, it does not justify your original assertion that the number came from "vandalism" of the Wikipedia page.
2) You can find some more information on their website, including this page which includes the claim that the number was at least 9 million at one point.
3) To some extent one should be charitable here. 6.8 million is a somewhat specific number and while it is possible that it was completely made up, it's also possible that it just comes from information which is not easily accessible on their website. You can decide for yourself how much you want to trust this reporting or even the LRF as a primary source, but that has nothing to do with the accusation that I am personally responsible for this issue. Again, the cause of this problem is entirely that China's justice system is opaque.

[Symmetry]

Alot of prisoners in the US are in because of sentencing laws
I know of a man that is in federal prison for the next 15 years and has already served 10 yrs because he had a little over an ounce of marijuana
He had spent two prior short terms in prison one for assault and one for another minor drug offense.
I think alot of it is bullshit.

I think a lot of it is the desire for politicians to be seen as tough on crime. Actually reducing crime rates isn't a priority for them.

Privatised incarceration makes incentives of these kind of laws too.

Who profits?

Jailing Americans for Profit

[Metsfanmax]

Yeah, so look guys - the question you're asking is "would you rather live in the United States or [insert country] because more people go to jail in the United States than in [insert country]."

So I guess my question is - what's your point? Do you think you can get to that in this thread? Are you saying China > than United States? Does whether or not you are more likely to go to prison (statistically speaking*) factor that much into your decision to live in China versus the United States?

1 - kudos for acknowledging the statistics. You are the first American to come into this thread and do something other than spout propaganda
2 - I would honestly rather move back to Beijing than any part of the USA

Incarceration rates are a symptom, not the whole picture - it's a question of freedom. I don't wanna live somewhere where every aspect of my life is regulated to asphyxiation.

It's not just China. China has only become the focus of this thread because the CIA cybertrolls are desperately trying to turn the spotlight away from America and onto someone else. Look at all the other many, many countries on that list who fall miles below America for incarceration rates. I'd rather move to Malaysia, Vietnam or New Zealand. Kenya, South Korea or most of Europe (Spain's great but f*ck France). There's so much freedom out there - why would I move to the US?

Now as to the US issue -- you won't hear any argument from me against the claim that our incarceration rates are too high. But this isn't built into our national DNA. Our excessively high rates are largely attributable to the drug and crime policies of the 1980s and 1990s, and they are reversible if we have the political will to do so. I hope that we do.

[Symmetry]

Yeah, so look guys - the question you're asking is "would you rather live in the United States or [insert country] because more people go to jail in the United States than in [insert country]."

So I guess my question is - what's your point? Do you think you can get to that in this thread? Are you saying China > than United States? Does whether or not you are more likely to go to prison (statistically speaking*) factor that much into your decision to live in China versus the United States?

1 - kudos for acknowledging the statistics. You are the first American to come into this thread and do something other than spout propaganda
2 - I would honestly rather move back to Beijing than any part of the USA

Incarceration rates are a symptom, not the whole picture - it's a question of freedom. I don't wanna live somewhere where every aspect of my life is regulated to asphyxiation.

It's not just China. China has only become the focus of this thread because the CIA cybertrolls are desperately trying to turn the spotlight away from America and onto someone else. Look at all the other many, many countries on that list who fall miles below America for incarceration rates. I'd rather move to Malaysia, Vietnam or New Zealand. Kenya, South Korea or most of Europe (Spain's great but f*ck France). There's so much freedom out there - why would I move to the US?

Now as to the US issue -- you won't hear any argument from me against the claim that our incarceration rates are too high. But this isn't built into our national DNA. Our excessively high rates are largely attributable to the drug and crime policies of the 1980s and 1990s, and they are reversible if we have the political will to do so. I hope that we do.

I don't know. Electing judges and police chiefs is part of the DNA of the US. As is the privatisation of the prison system. Fewer prisoners, shorter sentences, or even better rehabilitation means less money for those that profit from nonviolent criminals going to jail.

A politician who argues for the long term benefits of being easier on crime won't poll well.

[mrswdk]

To some extent one should be charitable here. 6.8 million is a somewhat specific number and while it is possible that it was completely made up, it's also possible that it just comes from information which is not easily accessible on their website.

Yeah, I suppose it is possible that the LRF has a secret stash of research which they let people come and peek at but which they never publish anywhere for fear of accidentally proving that their claims are true.

Then again, it is also possible that a bullshit figure is being regurgitated around the internet due to the internet's well-documented propensity for swallowing smear stories as gospel. Google "6.8 million people laogai" and what comes up? The Epoch Times making its claim, a website quoting the Epoch Times, this thread, and a transcript of a speech given by an LRF member in 1997, the only place where the LRF are on record as making the claim.

So, finals scores:

Mets and his unverified, 20 year-old statistic: 0
mrswdk: 3

[Metsfanmax]

To some extent one should be charitable here. 6.8 million is a somewhat specific number and while it is possible that it was completely made up, it's also possible that it just comes from information which is not easily accessible on their website.

Yeah, I suppose it is possible that the LRF has a secret stash of research which they let people come and peek at but which they never publish anywhere for fear of accidentally proving that their claims are true.

Then again, it is also possible that a bullshit figure is being regurgitated around the internet due to the internet's well-documented propensity for swallowing smear stories as gospel. Google "6.8 million people laogai" and what comes up? The Epoch Times making its claim, a website quoting the Epoch Times, this thread, and a transcript of a speech given by an LRF member in 1997, the only place where the LRF are on record as making the claim.

So, finals scores:

Mets and his unverified, 20 year-old statistic: 0
mrswdk: 3

Potentially millions of people languish in secret prison facilities in China, and mrswdk thinks that figuring out just how many is a fun forum game.

[mrswdk]

Potentially millions of imaginary people languish in unsubstantiated secret prison facilities in China, and mrswdk thinks that figuring out just how many is a fun forum game.

>presents data which is then roundly discredited
>adds word 'potentially' and keeps on presenting same data

And all in order to prove a point almost entirely irrelevant to the thread in question. What was it you said to me in the North Carolina thread: 'your desire to score rhetorical points overwhelmed your ability to have a reasoned discussion'?

[thegreekdog]

Yeah, so look guys - the question you're asking is "would you rather live in the United States or [insert country] because more people go to jail in the United States than in [insert country]."

So I guess my question is - what's your point? Do you think you can get to that in this thread? Are you saying China > than United States? Does whether or not you are more likely to go to prison (statistically speaking*) factor that much into your decision to live in China versus the United States?

1 - kudos for acknowledging the statistics. You are the first American to come into this thread and do something other than spout propaganda
2 - I would honestly rather move back to Beijing than any part of the USA

Incarceration rates are a symptom, not the whole picture - it's a question of freedom. I don't wanna live somewhere where every aspect of my life is regulated to asphyxiation.

It's not just China. China has only become the focus of this thread because the CIA cybertrolls are desperately trying to turn the spotlight away from America and onto someone else. Look at all the other many, many countries on that list who fall miles below America for incarceration rates. I'd rather move to Malaysia, Vietnam or New Zealand. Kenya, South Korea or most of Europe (Spain's great but f*ck France). There's so much freedom out there - why would I move to the US?

Yeah, I'm not going to argue statistics because (a) they are statistics and (b) I am in favor of getting rid of a lot of the laws affecting those numbers.

Have you lived in the US? I'm not sure I would classify life in the US as being regulated to asphyxiation. Are there are a lot of things that are illegal as compared to, say, the Netherlands? Yeah, I think so. But it doesn't cause overt discomfort (at least to me). Are there a lot of things that are regulated? Sure, and I'd like to get rid of them. Is it becoming worse in the US in terms of regulation? Yes. But even taking that into account, I don't think it causes more people to go to jail.

Apey's point (albeit anecdotal) is probably on point. The US prison system is based upon the premise of putting people in prison for what most would call victimless crimes (e.g. using otherwise illegal drugs) and the US prison system is not one of rehabilitation, it's one of continuous incarceration. So, to solve the problem one could go down a couple of different roads: (1) reform the prison system to be more rehabilitative or (2) make all drugs legal. I suspect a greater effect on prison population would occur with (1) than (2).

In any event, some more statistics -

In 2014, 30,284 people from China were naturalized as US citizens (or 4.6% of total people naturalized).

https://www.dhs.gov/publication/us-naturalizations-2014

In 2014, 3,904 people from China were granted asylum affirmatively (26.5% of all affirmative asylum grants) and 3,976 were granted asylum defensively (45.3% of all defensive asylum grants).

https://www.dhs.gov/publication/refugee ... ylees-2014

In 2014, 76,098 people from China were granted lawful permanent residence status (7.5% of all lawful permanent residents in 2014).

https://www.dhs.gov/publication/us-lawf ... dents-2014

So that's some 100,000 plus people coming to the US from China for whatever reason in 2014. Seems like those people preferred the US to China.

[mrswdk]

Meh. According to the last Chinese census, there are 71,493 Americans living in China. Seems like those people preferred China to the US.

[thegreekdog]

Meh. According to the last Chinese census, there are 71,493 Americans living in China. Seems like those people preferred China to the US.

Hmm... I did not provide the number of Chinese people living in the United States. I wonder if I can find that information...

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/ ... ted-states

According to the 2013 census there are 2,018,000 Chinese immigrants living in the United States. That's 28 times more Chinese living in the US than US living in China.

So maybe not "meh"?

[mrswdk]

Hm. 0.1% of China's population in America vs 0.02% of USA's population in China. A testament to USA's Hollywood promotional machine/CNN propaganda smear machine! Hurray for American industry!

[thegreekdog]

Hm. 0.1% of China's population in America vs 0.02% of USA's population in China. A testament to USA's Hollywood promotional machine/CNN propaganda smear machine! Hurray for American industry!

So, just to make sure I'm clear on your position, it's better in China but no one knows it (including the Chinese) because of the American movies that come out in China and because people watch CNN in China, both of which purposefully paint a better life in the US than in China. I can only speak for myself, but based on recent America-based movies, I'm not sure I'd want to live in the US. Seems like the country keeps getting annihilated by superheroes and/or aliens.

Oh sorry, and also "percentage of population" seems to be a driver of something, although I'm not sure of what.

Ultimately, even if I acknowledge all of your statistics (which we should because they are real), it appears that at least approximately 2 million former Chinese nationals (net of American nationals in China) prefer the United States to China (presumably for some reason other than per capita prison population). Perhaps there are other differences between China and the United States that account for the differences; perhaps other differences that are more relevant and/or important to people than per capita prison populations.

[mrswdk]

Hey, you're the one who started playing around with migration stats like they mean anything.

Howse about this one then: 8.7 million non-military US citizens now live abroad, 4.7 million of them fleeing in the past 15 or so years alone. That's roughly 2.6% of the American population who have emigrated. Your article says that about one-quarter of Chinese emigrants move to the US. if those 2 million are one quarter then that means there are about 8 million Chinese abroad - 0.6% of China's population.

Which would mean that American nationals are far more eager to flee America than Chinese nationals are to flee China. Oh noes D:

(on a side note, the CNN thing was about convincing Americans that China is horrible and sucks yaa boo)

[Metsfanmax]

Potentially millions of imaginary people languish in unsubstantiated secret prison facilities in China, and mrswdk thinks that figuring out just how many is a fun forum game.

>presents data which is then roundly discredited
>adds word 'potentially' and keeps on presenting same data

And all in order to prove a point almost entirely irrelevant to the thread in question. What was it you said to me in the North Carolina thread: 'your desire to score rhetorical points overwhelmed your ability to have a reasoned discussion'?

Yes, I too agree that a discussion of secret Chinese prison facilities really has no place in a thread about incarceration rates.

[notyou2]

Someone teach mrswdk when to concede defeat and lose gracefully

[riskllama]

Hey, you're the one who started playing around with migration stats like they mean anything.

Howse about this one then: 8.7 million non-military US citizens now live abroad, 4.7 million of them fleeing in the past 15 or so years alone. That's roughly 2.6% of the American population who have emigrated. Your article says that about one-quarter of Chinese emigrants move to the US. if those 2 million are one quarter then that means there are about 8 million Chinese abroad - 0.6% of China's population.

Which would mean that American nationals are far more eager to flee America than Chinese nationals are to flee China. Oh noes D:

(on a side note, the CNN thing was about convincing Americans that China is horrible and sucks yaa boo)

why did you flee, mrs?

[thegreekdog]

Hey, you're the one who started playing around with migration stats like they mean anything.

Howse about this one then: 8.7 million non-military US citizens now live abroad, 4.7 million of them fleeing in the past 15 or so years alone. That's roughly 2.6% of the American population who have emigrated. Your article says that about one-quarter of Chinese emigrants move to the US. if those 2 million are one quarter then that means there are about 8 million Chinese abroad - 0.6% of China's population.

Which would mean that American nationals are far more eager to flee America than Chinese nationals are to flee China. Oh noes D:

(on a side note, the CNN thing was about convincing Americans that China is horrible and sucks yaa boo)

To be fair, your premise is not "Incarceration rates are high in the United States" (which I agree with); your premise is "Incarceration rates are high in the United States, therefore the United States must suck, especially compared to China." I am simply pointing out that there is statistical evidence that more people from China come to the United States than vice versa. I am not making a judgment on "incarceration rates are high in the United States." I'm stating that your premise that the US sucks relative to China may not hold water when more people come to the US from China than vice versa. I suppose I could go look up some other things like median incomes, constitutional protections, mortality rates, etc., but...

Someone teach mrswdk when to concede defeat and lose gracefully

It's like symmetry stole your password or something. What's next, strawman attacks?

[Symmetry]

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Seriously though, what's with the weird remarks referring to me since you've come back?

Should I feel special?

[thegreekdog]

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Seriously though, what's with the weird remarks referring to me since you've come back?

Should I feel special?

Just putting it out there that you have a problem; you should feel special. Hopefully you won't respond and we can discuss incarceration rates around the world... but...

[Symmetry]

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Seriously though, what's with the weird remarks referring to me since you've come back?

Should I feel special?

Just putting it out there that you have a problem; you should feel special. Hopefully you won't respond and we can discuss incarceration rates around the world... but...

Hmm, baiting much?

Did you have a look at my link above? Seems pretty pertinent to the discussion.