Why is god mysterious?

[Colossus]

heavycola, great thread. This is a terrific question, and one that I've thought about A LOT. I can't say I have answers to offer, but I can say a few things about what I've found to be true from my perspective.

First of all, the anthropomorphism of God in the Old Testament is a consequence of the Old Testament being principally composed of ancient tribal myth. That is not to say that it is without figurative truths and important lessons for society, but the literal truth of the bible is unquestionably nonexistent imho. So, to ask why God used to get angry or vengeful or whatever is to take the stories of the Old Testament literally, and that is essentially tantamount to believing in Zeus or Ra.

Secondly, I must agree with The Random One to some extent regarding the way God 'feels'. Ascribing human emotions to God is limiting a being that is supposed to be infinite. Our feeble human brains cannot possibly fathom the complex awesomeness of an infinite being, so we describe/understand that being in our terms as best we can. The trouble with this anthropomorphism is that it creates necessary contradictions such as the one you mentioned.

Another point I'd like to raise is the issue of 'good' things and 'bad' things happening to people. Suffering is a matter of perspective. Whether a person is suffering or not is dependent on his/her view of his/her situation. I think that 'bad' things happen because they are not bad, but rather simply a part of the natural process. Death, war, disease are natural and essential to nature, tragedy is a human perception. Why would God create such a beautiful Universe if he was going to destroy the beauty of natural processes so that a human who perceives he or she is suffering might be rescued from that perception?

[heavycola]

If God did intervene, we would stop working and evolving and would rely on God to do everything. He doesn't get involved so we can continue to live for our own development and to better ourselves.

"You have to use a light touch... When you do things right, they won't be sure if you've done anything at all." - God

devil's advocate much??
Good answer - but I am trying to use non-human-initiated examples for this reason. Stopping the spread of malaria is not going to stop anyone working or evolving. How many children did smallpox kill before a vaccine was invented? Did god watch over hundreds of years of pointless deaths, wait for the vaccination to be invented and then smile paternally?

My point is that he is suppsoed to be immutable, and yet he has gone from behaving and acting in a way we can understand to being arbitrary and mysterious. The OT god did not have a light touch, nor would he have allowed a foreign dictator to murder 6 million of his israelites.
Furthermore change is, by definition, dependent on linear time. So god is not timeless, either.

[vtmarik]

devil's advocate much??
Good answer - but I am trying to use non-human-initiated examples for this reason. Stopping the spread of malaria is not going to stop anyone working or evolving. How many children did smallpox kill before a vaccine was invented? Did god watch over hundreds of years of pointless deaths, wait for the vaccination to be invented and then smile paternally?

The invention of these vaccinations, notably smallpox, were also massive movements in the medical field. The idea of vaccinating against smallpox using serum derived from blood infected with cowpox was an astounding revelation. Also, the potentiality of finding a cure for malaria would also make medicine more advanced.

My point is that he is suppsoed to be immutable, and yet he has gone from behaving and acting in a way we can understand to being arbitrary and mysterious. The OT god did not have a light touch, nor would he have allowed a foreign dictator to murder 6 million of his israelites.
Furthermore change is, by definition, dependent on linear time. So god is not timeless, either.

Well, you also must remember that these stories are based around an early people trying to define things they don't understand. David hitting Goliath in the eye with a stone, for example, was an amazingly lucky shot. Early peoples attributed these moments of luck and chance to God. Another example is the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. These early peoples would have attributed a meteor shower to God raining down brimstone upon the wicked.

Now sure, there are miraculous additions in the OT (Lot's wife turning to salt, the parting of the Red Sea), but these are attributable to the seeming unlikelihood of events. I think, and this makes some sense, that the OT was akin to the concept of Gonzo Journalism. All of the historical fact in the Bible is also accompanied with color and exaggeration made by early people trying to explain these fantastical events. How could a broken and beaten people escape from their oppressors in Egypt if God hadn't given Moses the power to part a sea?

[heavycola]

heavycola, great thread. This is a terrific question, and one that I've thought about A LOT. I can't say I have answers to offer, but I can say a few things about what I've found to be true from my perspective.

First of all, the anthropomorphism of God in the Old Testament is a consequence of the Old Testament being principally composed of ancient tribal myth. That is not to say that it is without figurative truths and important lessons for society, but the literal truth of the bible is unquestionably nonexistent imho. So, to ask why God used to get angry or vengeful or whatever is to take the stories of the Old Testament literally, and that is essentially tantamount to believing in Zeus or Ra.

Secondly, I must agree with The Random One to some extent regarding the way God 'feels'. Ascribing human emotions to God is limiting a being that is supposed to be infinite. Our feeble human brains cannot possibly fathom the complex awesomeness of an infinite being, so we describe/understand that being in our terms as best we can. The trouble with this anthropomorphism is that it creates necessary contradictions such as the one you mentioned.

Another point I'd like to raise is the issue of 'good' things and 'bad' things happening to people. Suffering is a matter of perspective. Whether a person is suffering or not is dependent on his/her view of his/her situation. I think that 'bad' things happen because they are not bad, but rather simply a part of the natural process. Death, war, disease are natural and essential to nature, tragedy is a human perception. Why would God create such a beautiful Universe if he was going to destroy the beauty of natural processes so that a human who perceives he or she is suffering might be rescued from that perception?

Colossus, thanks for an excellent reply. This is what I was after!

I agree with you 100% about biblical literalism, and that the OT is full of symbolic truths (which I am sure would have been understood as such by its comtemporaries). But to deny the god of the OT as having existed at all is to deny him altogether, and taken as a whole he behaved very differently to the god we are told exists today..

I see your & random 1's point about anthropomorphism and how we cannot truly understand the emotions of a perfect being, but i have thought about this too:
I have no idea whether you experience love the same way i do, but if i see you getting married to a girl, let's say, I can attribute that action to your feelings of love for her. And you would agree with me if i asked you (rich fathers-in-law notwithstanding). Likewise, when god flooded the world we can understand he was angry. He may be experiencing perfect, divine anger, but it's anger nonetheless. And when John says 'for god so loved the world' we can emapthise with him and with his actions becasue we know what love is and we can extrapolate that emotion by working back from his actions. God loves his son as any human father would, for example.

Your last para- I also agree that these things are essential to nature (I am an atheist, after all!); but the fact is that god does intervene, according to his followers. Maybe it's like VTmarik said - he has a delicate touch - but nevertheless, he is interfering with his creation.

So to pull these rambling strands together.... it seems to me that we can empathise with the biblical (OT and NT) god's emotions - we can understand his agency. I can't think of a divine action in the bible that cannot be explained in terms of emotions that we can experience, if only to a lesser degree. But i cannot empathise at all with his randomly interventionist 'behaviour' today. Therefore he has changed, and therefore he is neither perfect, immutable or timeless.

[Colossus]

HE has changed, or our understanding/description of him has changed? Important distinction, and I would argue it is the latter rather than the former.


BTW, incidentally, there are very good scientific hypothesis about the Red Sea crossing and the Star of Bethlehem, and many other examples of major God intervention from the Bible. Certainly not all, but many.

[jay_a2j]

In modern times, as bad as the Holocaust was, God used that for good and the fulfilment of prophesy because the Holocaust was the direct reason the Jews were granted their land once again. (Establishing Israel in 1948 as a result of WWII)

How was 9/11 free will but the holocaust not? Jay this is ridiculous. God, as an all-powerful being, could in the blink of an eye return the Jews to Israel without MURDERING 6 million of them! To say the holocaust was used to fulfil prophecy is absolutely ridiculous! Surely you've either got to go with the 100% free will aspect, or else God is cruel, vindictive and, basically, evil!

I should have realized my words would be manipulated, twisted and mutilated by the skeptics here. (What was I thinking?!) I never said the Holocaust was NOT free will. The example was used to establish that "All things work together for good for those that love the Lord". Not that God "allowed" the Holocaust to fulfill scripture! But BECAUSE of the Holocaust scripture was fulfilled.

We do have 100% free will, to think otherwise is insane.

I'm pretty sure the Allies established Israel, not God.

And you don't suspect God knew that they would?

And as for using natural disasters as warnings of end times, wouldn't exploding millions of stars to spell out the words 'The end is nigh' in supernovas - just off the top of my head - be a more compassionate warning than putting millions to death? How does any of this make sense to you?

Do you realize what the "end days" are? They are God's judgement on the Earth! Many, many, many more terrible things will happen to mankind. If you think God is not just, think again. God will judge the Earth and her people. You guys might want to study Revelation (seven bowls, trumpets, horsemen).

[mr. incrediball]

Prayer. God answers the prayers of His people.

how many people have prayed for stuff like world peace, or the end of the holocaust.

question, can god see into the future?

[jay_a2j]

Prayer. God answers the prayers of His people.

how many people have prayed for stuff like world peace, or the end of the holocaust.

question, can god see into the future?

God answers the prayers of His people. And that doesn't mean we will always get the answer we want to hear.


And to answer your question, yes.

[mr. incrediball]

Prayer. God answers the prayers of His people.

how many people have prayed for stuff like world peace, or the end of the holocaust.

question, can god see into the future?

God answers the prayers of His people. And that doesn't mean we will always get the answer we want to hear.

i don't quite follow you...

And to answer your question, yes.

so why doesn't he intervene before the event actually happens?

[Colossus]

ok, jay, if humans have 100% free will, then how can God see what will happen in the future? you're contradicting yourself, it seems to me.

[JoeCorden]

question, can god see into the future?

God is supposedly outside of space and time so he does not suffer the constraints of past and future. The Judaeo/Christian concept of God is that he experiences every moment in time at once, for eternity. He wouldn't be seeing into the future, as for God it wouldn't be the future, just another moment.
(Experiences probably wasn't the best word to use but I can't think of a better one right now).

[Colossus]

how about 'is'?

[jay_a2j]

Prayer. God answers the prayers of His people.

how many people have prayed for stuff like world peace, or the end of the holocaust.

question, can god see into the future?

God answers the prayers of His people. And that doesn't mean we will always get the answer we want to hear.

i don't quite follow you...

And to answer your question, yes.

so why doesn't he intervene before the event actually happens?

God does not hear the prayers of everybody...only His people. (and God answers them with a "yes", "no" or ""wait".


(question) Because He gave us free will.

[jay_a2j]

ok, jay, if humans have 100% free will, then how can God see what will happen in the future? you're contradicting yourself, it seems to me.

Not at all. God knows the choices we will make before we make them.

[mr. incrediball]

Prayer. God answers the prayers of His people.

how many people have prayed for stuff like world peace, or the end of the holocaust.

question, can god see into the future?

God answers the prayers of His people. And that doesn't mean we will always get the answer we want to hear.

i don't quite follow you...

And to answer your question, yes.

so why doesn't he intervene before the event actually happens?

God does not hear the prayers of everybody...only His people. (and God answers them with a "yes", "no" or ""wait".

I'm sure many of "his" people have prayed for those things. And yes, the "wait" answer involved 6 million dead people. You'd think a being of infinite power would be a little quicker

(question) Because He gave us free will.

that doesn't stop him intervening.

[jay_a2j]

I'm sure many of "his" people have prayed for those things. And yes, the "wait" answer involved 6 million dead people. You'd think a being of infinite power would be a little quicker

God has a purpose and plan. It may not be to YOUR satisfaction but then again, you aren't God.

that doesn't stop him intervening.

You don't make the rules of engagement, He does.

[mr. incrediball]

I'm sure many of "his" people have prayed for those things. And yes, the "wait" answer involved 6 million dead people. You'd think a being of infinite power would be a little quicker

God has a purpose and plan. It may not be to YOUR satisfaction but then again, you aren't God.

that doesn't stop him intervening.

You don't make the rules of engagement, He does.

thankyou jay, you have rolled my two seperate points into one nice, easy argument

so what is god's "satisfaction", why does his plan involve so many people dying and, perhaps most important, what is the goal his "plan" is working towards?

[jay_a2j]

I'm sure many of "his" people have prayed for those things. And yes, the "wait" answer involved 6 million dead people. You'd think a being of infinite power would be a little quicker

God has a purpose and plan. It may not be to YOUR satisfaction but then again, you aren't God.

that doesn't stop him intervening.

You don't make the rules of engagement, He does.

thankyou jay, you have rolled my two seperate points into one nice, easy argument

so what is god's "satisfaction", why does his plan involve so many people dying and, perhaps most important, what is the goal his "plan" is working towards?

Gods plan is Gods plan. His goal is to reach people so that he can dwell with them forever.

[Colossus]

Not at all. God knows the choices we will make before we make them.

You cannot be serious. How can God know what choice we will make if we have 100% free will? That is completely paradoxical. If God knows what we will choose, then we have no choice. If God knows what we will choose, then choices are already made. If God knows what choices we will make, then he cannot possibly have given us free will, nor can any person have faith in salvation. You are a believer in 'accepting Jesus as your personal savior', yes? Okay, so if you believe in salvation, then doesn't God already friggin' KNOW who he's gonna save and who he won't? Man, your version of God is a spoiled kid with an ant farm, a spotlight, and a magnifying glass.

Seriously, Jay, wake up.

[mr. incrediball]

I'm sure many of "his" people have prayed for those things. And yes, the "wait" answer involved 6 million dead people. You'd think a being of infinite power would be a little quicker

God has a purpose and plan. It may not be to YOUR satisfaction but then again, you aren't God.

that doesn't stop him intervening.

You don't make the rules of engagement, He does.

thankyou jay, you have rolled my two seperate points into one nice, easy argument

so what is god's "satisfaction", why does his plan involve so many people dying and, perhaps most important, what is the goal his "plan" is working towards?

Gods plan is Gods plan. His goal is to reach people so that he can dwell with them forever.

wait, wait, he created adam and eve, lived with them,made friends with them, and loved them, they do one thing wrong and he kicks them out of his perfect place... and he's spent the last 6,000 years trying to get that back?

god's just as pathetic as the rest of us!

[mr. incrediball]

Not at all. God knows the choices we will make before we make them.

You cannot be serious. How can God know what choice we will make if we have 100% free will? That is completely paradoxical. If God knows what we will choose, then we have no choice. If God knows what we will choose, then choices are already made. If God knows what choices we will make, then he cannot possibly have given us free will, nor can any person have faith in salvation. You are a believer in 'accepting Jesus as your personal savior', yes? Okay, so if you believe in salvation, then doesn't God already friggin' KNOW who he's gonna save and who he won't? Man, your version of God is a spoiled kid with an ant farm, a spotlight, and a magnifying glass.

Seriously, Jay, wake up.

i love you, collosus...

[Colossus]

It just pisses me off to hear such paradoxical arguments. Some believers thing that God gave us these wonderful minds in order to trip us up...like we're supposed to check them at the door when we enter the path to salvation. Drives me crazy.

And since you bring up Adam and Eve, God gave them 100% free will AND knew that they would eat from the tree of knowledge, according to Jay.....sounds pretty sinister to me. Why didn't he just make Eve with herpes, too, just for added entertainment the day Adam looked down while taking a leak and said, "WTF?!"

[jay_a2j]

Not at all. God knows the choices we will make before we make them.

You cannot be serious. How can God know what choice we will make if we have 100% free will? That is completely paradoxical. If God knows what we will choose, then we have no choice. If God knows what we will choose, then choices are already made. If God knows what choices we will make, then he cannot possibly have given us free will, nor can any person have faith in salvation. You are a believer in 'accepting Jesus as your personal savior', yes? Okay, so if you believe in salvation, then doesn't God already friggin' KNOW who he's gonna save and who he won't? Man, your version of God is a spoiled kid with an ant farm, a spotlight, and a magnifying glass.

Seriously, Jay, wake up.

You are 15 and you and your girlfriend are coming home from a date. You think to yourself, "Should I kiss her?". God seeing the future already knows that you will decide to kiss her, that she will slap you and that you will never date her again. Why? Because HE CAN SEE INTO THE FUTURE! And knows before hand what WE will do, before we do it. ITS STILL FREE WILL!

[mr. incrediball]

Not at all. God knows the choices we will make before we make them.

You cannot be serious. How can God know what choice we will make if we have 100% free will? That is completely paradoxical. If God knows what we will choose, then we have no choice. If God knows what we will choose, then choices are already made. If God knows what choices we will make, then he cannot possibly have given us free will, nor can any person have faith in salvation. You are a believer in 'accepting Jesus as your personal savior', yes? Okay, so if you believe in salvation, then doesn't God already friggin' KNOW who he's gonna save and who he won't? Man, your version of God is a spoiled kid with an ant farm, a spotlight, and a magnifying glass.

Seriously, Jay, wake up.

You are 15 and you and your girlfriend are coming home from a date. You think to yourself, "Should I kiss her?". God seeing the future already knows that you will decide to kiss her, that she will slap you and that you will never date her again. Why? Because HE CAN SEE INTO THE FUTURE! And knows before hand what WE will do, before we do it. ITS STILL FREE WILL!

so, god doesn't decide to help? if i were that dude, and I knew what you'd just said, I'd take every force i can muster to go against god... nod good, just god... he's a bastard.

[Colossus]

ok, so your explanation is that God can see what's going to happen for the next minute or so? gimme a break, man. If I see a guy I know well (as God knows us all well) walk up the stairs with a girl, I can guess with pretty high accuracy that he will kiss her. That's not 'seeing the future;' it's simple deduction.