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Religion vs. Science

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Postby argyll72 on Tue May 02, 2006 6:00 pm

The texts you see in the Bible don't stand a critical inspection. They weren't written when Jesus was alive, but a lot later. The first ones have some credibility as there were still some old people alive who had been children when Jesus was alive, but even that doesn't necessarily mean that they're automatically true. A story becomes a myth, a myth becomes a legend and so on. One of the basics of historical research methods are thinking about motives of the author. If a king writes about his conquest he'll probably lie to make himself look better. For instance there are Viking texts that say that they attacked Konstantinople with...ummm... was it 800 ships. And that is not to be taken seriously as such an attack would've left like half a Sweden deserted. So particularly the miracles you read in the Bible should sound an alarm. Is there a reason Jesus should be made look as good as possible? Hell yeah.


You have to remember though that the Jewish culture before, at the time of Jesus and after was an oral culture. There were people that had the job of remembering exactly what a person said and they would retell exactly what they said later. Through the years the stories would not change because people knew the story and if the storyteller changed the story the people would know. The Gospels were written as early as the 60's and as late as the mid 80's if I remember correctly. So it was only 30 years after Jesus' death and resurrection that they wrote the Gospels. The reason they waited so long to write it down was because they thought that Jesus would come back during their life time. When people started dying off they realized that they needed to write down what they experienced and what Jesus said so future generations could know of Jesus.

To address the miracles of Jesus. You said that should sound an alarm. For a scientifically educated person as you are and we all are, it would sound an alarm. But at the time of Jesus they did not have the field of science as we know today. It was a pre-scientific world. And these miracles were not just preformed in front of the lower uneducated class. Jesus preformed miracles in front of the Jewish religious leaders and the educated people that were skeptical. And they believed he had preformed miracles because they accused him of breaking the Sabbath by healing a man. The Pharisees (a Jewish religious sect) had added hundreds of rules and regulations to the original 10 commandments that Moses was given for the Israelite people. It is hard for us to imagine miracles because we don't see people healed from lifetime sickness and crippled ness. But if Jesus was who he said he was (God incarnate) then why couldn't Jesus do something that everybody else couldn't

In an earlier post somebody mentioned that the Gospels were different and the stories came in a different order so there for they couldn't be reliable. If you talk to a police officer about investigating a crash they will tell you that everybody has a different story of what happened. It's because they were at different angles and had a different perspective. But they all describe the same accident. If the Gospels would have said the same exact thing then it is time to worry about some funny business.

You are right about kings wanting their missions to look well. It is a part of critical analysis of any text, looking at motive.
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Postby WintersTwilight on Tue May 02, 2006 9:53 pm

FINALLY I HAVE FOUND A VOICE...

Okay, I will begin by admitting that I have not read all of the posts, but I have read most of them and I have read all of the ones from FreakShow...

Freakshow, you seem to be a very intellegent person who is very logical and seems to know what you are talking about. This post will not explain everything... :

It seems that many people argue that it is impossible to prove
or disprove the existance of God. I believe that you can prove
one way or the other, but you cannot convince everyone of
what seems to be true, or is true.

Let us take a logical look at the picture...

Freakshow, I noticed that you said that you were morally opposed to religion. It seems that morality has existed through out humanity for a long time... This is an interesting phenomenon. To what can we attribute this strange occurance? It may be argued that morals help society, and that it is in the best interest of humanity and therefore preserves the species.
Notice what we are doing here. We are assuming that life is better than death and that the good of the whole humanity is better than the good of the individual. Not only this, but what about when morals differ from person to person... If you look in all societies, you will find slight differences in the people's morals. There are some things however that remain in all cultures. (e.g. courage is better than cowardice, traitors are looked down upon, etc...) We are assuming some kind of moral standard...
This moral standard is God.

Disclamer 1:

But of course, you are not convinced yet, and you will not be until a much firmer logical foundation is laid out. Even then, however, you may be closed to all possiblity of the existance of a God. If you want to know truth, let us continue to look for it. Please respond with your opinions.

Disclamer 2:

I am not going to try to prove the existance of any particular God or religion. All religions have 3 common strands or elements... (I will explain them upon request...) Christianity has a 4th. (This I will also explain upon request.) I deal here primarily with the existance of a being whose whole existance is of itself...
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Postby WintersTwilight on Tue May 02, 2006 10:13 pm

I will now address the issues that FreakShow observed about the God.

1. God is unforgiving - e.g. origional sin:

It seems that this statement came from a Christian perspective. (Not all religions believe in origional sin or that God is forgiving.) So I will answer it from that perspective.

Christianity is centered around a perticular person and event in history. (Jesus Christ and the cross.) According to their theology, God IS forgiving, and he has forgiven all of the sins of man, including the origional sin.

You may have meant that God would forgive everyone even if they did not repent, or that God should forgive man again and again without finality. (i.e. death leading to Heaven or Hell.) Well, that gets into the doctrine of free will. This doctrine means nothing if you do not believe in a God at all. So I will stay off of this subject unless someone would like me to tell what I know about it.

2. God committed murder - But he commands man not to:

I am assuming that Freakshow is refering to events in the Old Testament. This again is arguing not against God, not against religion, but against Christianity. You cannot use the Bible if you do not believe in a God to begin with. I will not deal with this question now for that reason. Once again, if you would like me to I will do my best to explain what I know upon request.

3. God is all powerful and with that power He created multiple religions and promised them all a single location in which to live:

I would have to ask Freakshow, why it is that he thinks this. I see no evidence for it whatsoever. Once again he is assuming things and coming to a conclusion that seems to be based on nothing. This also deals with a presupposed belief in a God or omnipotent being that has created religions. It seems that you cannot argue this until you first believe in such a being. Only then can you begin to find out who he is. This arguement also presupposes that God created religion, but the very thing you were trying to argue was ultimately that MAN created religion.





Please post any questions or statements you have. I very much enjoy going through things logically...
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Postby Hoff on Tue May 02, 2006 10:26 pm

WintersTwilight wrote:
It seems that many people argue that it is impossible to prove
or disprove the existance of God. I believe that you can prove
one way or the other, but you cannot convince everyone of
what seems to be true, or is true.


If you can prove it, then prove it. You can't prove it. Proving something is showing how it cannot be false no matter how you look at it. You said that you cannot convince everyone...well you wouldnt have to convince them if you proved it.
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Postby WintersTwilight on Tue May 02, 2006 11:01 pm

In proving that something exists, it appears that we can go about it in two ways. Either proving that existance by concepts that everyone presupposes to be true, (e.g. 2+2=4) or we can go about it by proving, again with concepts that do not need proof, that the thing in question does not not exist. In other words, "God exists" means essencially the same as "God does not not exist".

Unfortunately, even if you can prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt, it still lies in the capacities of the mind of the one that is witnessing the proof, and the willingness to be open. Of course there are some things that cannot possibly be proven. Among these is proof. What can you use to prove a proof? We find ourselves once again going in circles.

Let us get back to logical arguments for or against the existance of a self existing being. We could argue about whether or not it is possible to prove or disprove such a being all night, but I would much rather confront the origional debate.

That one statement that I made earlier was not the centre of the discussion.
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Postby Hoff on Tue May 02, 2006 11:05 pm

I think it would be much more interesting if you prove or disprove that exists of God. And then there would be no reason to have the original debate. I'm not trying to be an ass, if thats how i'm coming off, but i'm just curious to see how you would prove it.
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Postby WintersTwilight on Tue May 02, 2006 11:18 pm

Very well. It may be that I have not explained myself clearly enough. I am not sure whether or not you can prove or disprove the existance of a God mathematically. I do believe that logic and creation point to a being beyond or behind them. I am not an expert by any means. I am not even a theologian. I do hope however that this will not discredit my argument.

I have begun by trying to logically work through some of the arguments already submitted. Most of the arguments that I have seen here are weak. I have not found an argument that is strong enough to DISprove the existance of God. Just like in mathematical formulae, logic works through things one step at a time. It would be very difficult for me to write down all of the things that I can think of on this subject. I was hoping that everything would become more clear by way of conversation. The deeper we get, the more we can see.

One thing I would like to clear up, is that everyone here seems to be trying to prove or disprove the existance of the Christian God. I am only trying to point to the being that is behind all nature. A being behind morality and a standard of it. I am trying to prove the existance of a reality that is real in and of itself. I am not at this time trying to say anything about the Christian God except as the conversation turns that way.
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Postby areyouincahoots on Tue May 02, 2006 11:31 pm

WintersTwilight wrote:FINALLY I HAVE FOUND A VOICE...


*applauds*
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Postby HighBorn on Tue May 02, 2006 11:32 pm

yes winters good to see you in the posts......
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Postby argyll72 on Wed May 03, 2006 1:15 am

Anselm of Canterbury's Proof for the Existence of God

"It is quite possible to think of something whose non-existence cannot be thought of. This must be greater than something whose non-existence can be thought of. So if this thing (than which no greater than something whose non-existence can be thought as not existing, then, that very thing than which a greater thing cannot be thought is not that than which a greater cannot be thought. This is a contradiction. So it is true that there exists something than which nothing greater can be thought, that it cannot be thought of as not existing.

And you are this thing, O Lord our God! So Truly therefore do you exist, O Lord my God, that you cannot be thought of as not existing, and with good reason; for if a human mind could think of anything greater than you, the creature would rise about the Creator and judge you; which is obviously absurd. And in truth whatever else there be beside you may be thought of as not existing. So you alone, most truly of all, and therefore most of all, have existence: because whatever else exists, does not exist as truly as you, and therefore exists to a lesser degree" (McGrath 14).
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Postby argyll72 on Wed May 03, 2006 1:23 am

Rene Descartes on the Existence of God

"Having given the matter careful attention, I am convinced that existence can no more be taken away from the divine essence than the magnitude of its three angles taken together being equal to two right angles can be taken away from the essence of a triangle, or than the idea of a valley can be taken away from the idea of a mountain. So it is no less absurd to think (cogitare) of God (that is, a supremely perfect being) lacking existence ( that is, lacking a certain perfection), than to think of a mountain without a valley….I am not free to think of God apart from existence (that is, of a supremely perfect being apart from supreme perfection) in the way that I am free to imagine a horse either with wings or without wings…..Whenever I choose to think of the First and Supreme Being, and as it were bring this idea out of the treasury of my mind, it is necessary that I ascribe all perfections to him…..This necessity clearly ensures that, when I subsequently point out that existence is a perfection, I am correct in concluding that the First and Supreme Being exists" (McGrath 30,31).
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Postby Hoff on Wed May 03, 2006 1:24 am

Maybe i'm getting this wrong, but the whole arguement relies on the fact that you can't think of something greater then you that doesnt exist? Where is the proof for that? Why can't you think of something that doesnt exist?
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Postby argyll72 on Wed May 03, 2006 1:28 am

Thomas Aquinas on Proofs for the Existence of God

"The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence--which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.

The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God " (McGrath 18,19).
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Postby argyll72 on Wed May 03, 2006 1:32 am

Hoff wrote:Maybe i'm getting this wrong, but the whole arguement relies on the fact that you can't think of something greater then you that doesnt exist? Where is the proof for that? Why can't you think of something that doesnt exist?


Because it's a contradiction.
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Postby Banana Stomper on Wed May 03, 2006 1:44 am

How about instead of throwing out some philosophers thought process in which he destroys all that he knows and rebuilds it once again to come to his conclusions, talk about something more fitting a science vs. religion and bring together a point in which the can almost meet and either butt heads or hold hands, skipping lovingly through a field of daisies.

Predestination.

There are four forces in the Universe. Strong Nuclear force, weak nuclear force, gravitational force, and electromagnetic force. All of these forces govern the universe, how we move, how everything moves, how particles move. Not a single one of us is apart from these laws. Now, we assume we have free will, but where does this free will force come from. What force is it that moves our arms, that moves our fingers to type. What force is posting this message right now. You can say that i am making the decision to type these words, but that would imply that somehow I altered the course of these particles, that i changed their movement. But I am not a force. I am made of of neutrons, protons, and electrons that all interact in a way governed by the laws of nature. That all must obey those four forces and can not be affected by anything other than those four forces.
What is it then that determines what i type. At some point in the past, every particle was put into motion. As science currently states, the big bang was this begining, and all of the particles that now make up the universe were set in motion. the particles that make up my fingers were set in motion. Those particles have never been affected by any force other than the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, gravity, and the electromagnetic force. My brain is not free of the laws, nothing is free of these laws. What then makes me hit these keys in this order? What governs my actions, what path were they set on so that they mesh into my conversations, my posts on this forum, my moves in a game of risk?
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Postby Hoff on Wed May 03, 2006 1:49 am

Can you explain how its a contradiction instead of just quoting. The quote you stated in the first sentence said that you cannot think of something that doesnt exist. Stated it as fact and based his arguement off of that fact. If the fact is questionable that you are basing an arguement on, then that doesnt lead to a good arguement.

And the other post you sent argyll was basically cause and effect and how God was the original cause. Correct? I don't think we can fully comprehend eternity. Why can't things have just always been in motion? And i briefly gave this argument of casue and effect and first cause in one of the first pages. Someone said what comes before God then? So i'm curious to how you would answer that.
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Postby Banana Stomper on Wed May 03, 2006 1:53 am

Hoff, if you want, i have Descartes' Discourse on Method and Meditations on Frist Philosphy. I had to get it for philosophy last semester. it was only like 6 bucks so i kept it. Figured i'd actually read it some time. Its kind of interesting.
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Postby Hoff on Wed May 03, 2006 1:53 am

Banana Stomper wrote:How about instead of throwing out some philosophers thought process in which he destroys all that he knows and rebuilds it once again to come to his conclusions, talk about something more fitting a science vs. religion and bring together a point in which the can almost meet and either butt heads or hold hands, skipping lovingly through a field of daisies.

Predestination.

There are four forces in the Universe. Strong Nuclear force, weak nuclear force, gravitational force, and electromagnetic force. All of these forces govern the universe, how we move, how everything moves, how particles move. Not a single one of us is apart from these laws. Now, we assume we have free will, but where does this free will force come from. What force is it that moves our arms, that moves our fingers to type. What force is posting this message right now. You can say that i am making the decision to type these words, but that would imply that somehow I altered the course of these particles, that i changed their movement. But I am not a force. I am made of of neutrons, protons, and electrons that all interact in a way governed by the laws of nature. That all must obey those four forces and can not be affected by anything other than those four forces.
What is it then that determines what i type. At some point in the past, every particle was put into motion. As science currently states, the big bang was this begining, and all of the particles that now make up the universe were set in motion. the particles that make up my fingers were set in motion. Those particles have never been affected by any force other than the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, gravity, and the electromagnetic force. My brain is not free of the laws, nothing is free of these laws. What then makes me hit these keys in this order? What governs my actions, what path were they set on so that they mesh into my conversations, my posts on this forum, my moves in a game of risk?


There was a time when we didn't know about any of these forces. So couldnt it be true that there are other forces out there that we dont know of or can comprehend right now or ever?
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Postby argyll72 on Wed May 03, 2006 2:03 am

banana-

There were some that wanted a proff of God's existence so I quoted some theologians because they are a lot better at logic than I am.

Hoff-

Because in order for something to be in motion there has to be a first cause. Without cause there is no effect.

Anslem is using a double negative. So really he's saying you can think of something that exists. And something that doesn't exist is less than something that does exist.
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Postby Banana Stomper on Wed May 03, 2006 2:04 am

Is it true? i suppose so. I suppose it is true that one day we will stumble upon yet another force that governs the way our world works and acts. But what would this force be. Is it more likely that there exists some free will force that allows us to alter the paths of particles, or that we are not as free as we believe we are. What forces us to question that these are the only four forces? Is it our desire to have control over our actions, the fear to let go of the reigns and let everything happen before us? We look for the forces before when we couldn''t explain something, but we look for this new force now when we don't want to explain something.
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Postby Banana Stomper on Wed May 03, 2006 2:11 am

They're philosphers, not theologians. Well, descartes is. I'm not sure about the others. But regardless, they explain their thought processes and how they come to their conclusions. But they make assumptions that are unwarranted. If to think of something, it must exist is inherently flawed. How would you explain every wrong thought out there. When i was young and feared a monster lurking under my bed, or in the dark before me, was i thinking it because they were in fact there? or was i thinking it because i was uncertain as to what was truly there. The only thing that must exist to think of it is an idea. To think of god, there must be the idea of god. Now where does that come from?
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Postby Banana Stomper on Wed May 03, 2006 2:19 am

Interesting little fact about thought. I don't care if you care, i think its cool. there are in fact things that you can not think of. For example, a googolplex. A googolplex is basically 10 to the power of a googol. or 10 to the 10 to the 100. Interestingly enough, it is estimated that the number of elementary particles in the universe only total about 10 to 70 or 80. So basically, even if every particle in the universe was made into pen and paper, you couldn't write that number down. Also, if that number was printed on paper with one point font, and was printed in a line, its width would be something along the lines of 4.7 * 10^69 times the estimated width of the universe. Needless to say, with the number being so large, you can not even think of the number, because not enough particles exist in your brain. Check out what Wikipedia has to say about that. its interesting.
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Postby argyll72 on Wed May 03, 2006 2:20 am

Because the idea of something is inferior to its reality. Anslem stated the idea of God is "that than which nothing greater can be conceived" is a contridiction because the reality of God would be superior to this idea. So if the definition of God is correct "the greatest being or creator" and this idea exists in the human mind then the reality must also be true.
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Postby argyll72 on Wed May 03, 2006 2:22 am

Banana Stomper wrote:Interesting little fact about thought. I don't care if you care, i think its cool. there are in fact things that you can not think of. For example, a googolplex. A googolplex is basically 10 to the power of a googol. or 10 to the 10 to the 100. Interestingly enough, it is estimated that the number of elementary particles in the universe only total about 10 to 70 or 80. So basically, even if every particle in the universe was made into pen and paper, you couldn't write that number down. Also, if that number was printed on paper with one point font, and was printed in a line, its width would be something along the lines of 4.7 * 10^69 times the estimated width of the universe. Needless to say, with the number being so large, you can not even think of the number, because not enough particles exist in your brain. Check out what Wikipedia has to say about that. its interesting.


Chuck Norris could write a googolplex.

Gotta go. Final in five hours.
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Postby Hoff on Wed May 03, 2006 2:27 am

so could macgyver
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