Logic dictates that there is a God!

[Snorri1234]

It sounds equally ridiculous with "god" there. It's just difficult to show that using a term that most people take seriously as is. Try replacing "wizard" with "Baal." See? Ridiculous.

Why is it that so many can make a strong case for God, but almost nobody can make a strong case for a wizard? Because wizards are already established as being FICTIONAL.

I dunno, this book I read makes a pretty strong case for them.

[Snorri1234]

You should read it, there are seven books so it's already better than the mere two books the bible has.

[AAFitz]

It sounds equally ridiculous with "god" there. It's just difficult to show that using a term that most people take seriously as is. Try replacing "wizard" with "Baal." See? Ridiculous.

Why is it that so many can make a strong case for God, but almost nobody can make a strong case for a wizard? Because wizards are already established as being FICTIONAL. It's more atheist propaganda. Why can't people see that?

Some have established God as Fictional. The fact that not everyone believes that doesnt mean its not true.

Reality does not = the number of people that believe something, it just is. Either there is a God or there isnt. But I dont care if every last person on earth believes in him, if hes not there, he isnt there.

The only proof you have that hes there is that someone told you he was there. Again, doesnt make it true. As far as atheist propaganda...atheists just dont believe in God. Most could not care less if others do. The propaganda award goes to the religious Im afraid, who typically make it their mission, if not crusade, to make people believe in their God. Why cant you see that?

Speaking of propaganda...read the title of this thread

But look, I dont blame you. You have a hard case to sell, and many competing theories, religions and stories, not to mention common sense and actual logic, which really does dictate a lack of supernatural beings... so go forward with your crusade, convince all that you can convince, because eventually, there will be so few on your side, that youll need every one you can get. Besides, if you dont have all your friends telling you you are right, you might start to honestly question your beliefs...and we all know how slippery that slope is, dont we?

Like the pathological liar, you cant afford for a second not to believe in a story so grand or unbelievable at face value, even for a second. If you did, you know what would happen. Thats why many fight so hard in their campaign....they need to convince themselves.

[AAFitz]

You should read it, there are seven books so it's already better than the mere two books the bible has.

The editors did a better job of eliminating inconsistencies in the story too

[PLAYER57832]

Some have established God as Fictional. The fact that not everyone believes that doesnt mean its not true.

No, but the fact that this has not actually been proven does mean its not necessarily a fact.

You can believe in God or not, but cannot prove either side. Claiming you have that proof is silly.

Evidence, enough to convince you ... fine. But proof? That requires absolute certainty, unshakeable evidence. In this case, evidence of a negative which is almost always impossible.

That said, there are enough silly an ridiculous people on both sides to fill several mansions. Neither really does credit to the sane majority.

[PLAYER57832]

Backglass wrote:Besides, its the religious who believe in all things magical...not the atheists.



This is equally untrue.

Could you elaborate on that, players?

First, it is wrong to say that all people of any one group believe a certain way (e.g., "the religious"), but you could say that atheists are generally more willing to accept knowledge gained scientifically before any other type of knowledge. Most religions do indeed teach that some things happen/ed because of a spirit or spirits acting outside the realm of scientific laws. Isn't that what magic is?

Science is the study of what is... whatever that reality is, so if it truly happens, it is not actually outside of scientific laws.

However, my basic point was that most of these arguments come down to explaining either some form of "God went poof" or some form of "it just happened". Neither is particularly easy to explain through what most of us would call "normal means". Both are equally "magic".

[anthroguy]

Well, this is practically the first time I've participated in the CC forums. I just saw this topic and wanted to check it out. Anyway, I was asking PLAYERS57832 to elaborate on his opinion that it is "equally untrue" that "its the religious who believe in all things magical...not the atheists."

I know we can all think of examples of atheists who believe in things without evidence (e.g., homeopathy - i know this is a big topic for you folk over in the UK, and I agree that it's BS!). But religious people, by definition, trust in some supernatural explanations over natural explanations.

I think she was more talking about "all things magical". They do believe in something supernatural (or magical) but it's a bit dickish to imply they take anything on faith.

It's unclear whether you're saying that I'm being dickish or not. If you are, all I can say is that nothing I said implied that "theists take anything on faith." That's ridiculous. Only a moron would accept anything on faith and I don't think religious people are inherently moronic (though I do think that much of religious belief is illogical). Theism in all of its many forms is essentially based upon belief-without-evidence, but people are far more complex psychologically than to be defined simply by their religion.

[john9blue]

Wow, Fitz. You seem so convinced that I don't think there's any point rehashing all my previous posts on the subject. A few things though:

- As much as atheists claim that they "aren't an organization" and that it's "impossible to call yourself a non-Santa believer" or whatever, they are very much a group and I do see them spreading their beliefs (at least on the Internet) much more than the religious. Why do you think the term "weak atheist" was invented? So that the agnostics could find a group to be part of and a banner to rally behind. Truly intelligent people acknowledge that they don't know whether God exists and that putting too much effort into one side is probably a waste of time.

- If the only proof I had was being told God exists (a common unbased assumption constantly being flung at believers) there's no way I'd believe it. I tend to only trust myself (obviously you have no way of knowing that, and can continue to live in your false world of theistic sheep if you like). My belief revolves primarily around the cosmological argument. So the usual shallow jokes against Christians don't work.

- Take away all the straw men and unbased assumptions, and you'll find that very, very few atheists actually know what they're talking about. There's really a "herd mentality" about it, just like religion. Want to talk about mass delusion? How about the fact that atheists don't even KNOW that they have beliefs? The reason Christianity is used as a target is so atheism looks reasonable in comparison (although, in the usual atheist fashion, it is constantly distorted and oversimplified).

[joecoolfrog]

Cross out "wizard" and put "God" there and you'd be on to something.

No, because then the idea would start to make more sense, and it becomes harder to make fun of it. Better just to straw-man it and make it sound ridiculous.

Yes because there is far more proof in a supernatural God right..........

[neanderpaul14]

- If the only proof I had was being told God exists (a common unbased assumption constantly being flung at believers) there's no way I'd believe it. I tend to only trust myself (obviously you have no way of knowing that, and can continue to live in your false world of theistic sheep if you like).

Your beliefs are from what you were taught as a child. Not from facts or knowledge that you have learned since. I truly and sincerely wish I was naive enough to believe all that christian mythology I was force fed as a child. However as I grew and began to learn actual facts about the world in which I live in and I had to file all those fairy tales away, along with Santa Claus, where they belonged into the wishful thinking area.

[john9blue]

Your beliefs are from what you were taught as a child. Not from facts or knowledge that you have learned since. I truly and sincerely wish I was naive enough to believe all that christian mythology I was force fed as a child. However as I grew and began to learn actual facts about the world in which I live in and I had to file all those fairy tales away, along with Santa Claus, where they belonged into the wishful thinking area.

Way to delete my next two sentences just to make your point.

[Snorri1234]

Well, this is practically the first time I've participated in the CC forums. I just saw this topic and wanted to check it out. Anyway, I was asking PLAYERS57832 to elaborate on his opinion that it is "equally untrue" that "its the religious who believe in all things magical...not the atheists."

I know we can all think of examples of atheists who believe in things without evidence (e.g., homeopathy - i know this is a big topic for you folk over in the UK, and I agree that it's BS!). But religious people, by definition, trust in some supernatural explanations over natural explanations.

I think she was more talking about "all things magical". They do believe in something supernatural (or magical) but it's a bit dickish to imply they take anything on faith.

It's unclear whether you're saying that I'm being dickish or not. If you are, all I can say is that nothing I said implied that "theists take anything on faith." That's ridiculous. Only a moron would accept anything on faith and I don't think religious people are inherently moronic (though I do think that much of religious belief is illogical). Theism in all of its many forms is essentially based upon belief-without-evidence, but people are far more complex psychologically than to be defined simply by their religion.

No actually I was calling Backglass dickish.

[Neoteny]

You are one step away from getting the point John

So close...

[Snorri1234]

Wow, Fitz. You seem so convinced that I don't think there's any point rehashing all my previous posts on the subject. A few things though:

- As much as atheists claim that they "aren't an organization" and that it's "impossible to call yourself a non-Santa believer" or whatever, they are very much a group and I do see them spreading their beliefs (at least on the Internet) much more than the religious. Why do you think the term "weak atheist" was invented? So that the agnostics could find a group to be part of and a banner to rally behind. Truly intelligent people acknowledge that they don't know whether God exists and that putting too much effort into one side is probably a waste of time.

Actually, truly intelligent people acknowledge that we can't be certain of anything but that that is a daft position to take on such a fundamental question. I can't know for certain that molecules exist, but that doesn't mean I don't think they do.

- If the only proof I had was being told God exists (a common unbased assumption constantly being flung at believers) there's no way I'd believe it. I tend to only trust myself (obviously you have no way of knowing that, and can continue to live in your false world of theistic sheep if you like). My belief revolves primarily around the cosmological argument. So the usual shallow jokes against Christians don't work.

The fact that your belief revolves around the cosmological argument is actually a reason why the shallow jokes work.

Even when one accepts the cosmological argument as truth, it doesn't imply a god.

- Take away all the straw men and unbased assumptions, and you'll find that very, very few atheists actually know what they're talking about. There's really a "herd mentality" about it, just like religion. Want to talk about mass delusion? How about the fact that atheists don't even KNOW that they have beliefs? The reason Christianity is used as a target is so atheism looks reasonable in comparison (although, in the usual atheist fashion, it is constantly distorted and oversimplified).

???

[Neoteny]

- Take away all the straw men and unbased assumptions, and you'll find that very, very few atheists actually know what they're talking about. There's really a "herd mentality" about it, just like religion. Want to talk about mass delusion? How about the fact that atheists don't even KNOW that they have beliefs? The reason Christianity is used as a target is so atheism looks reasonable in comparison (although, in the usual atheist fashion, it is constantly distorted and oversimplified).

???

He's sounds just like luns. Must be that "herd mentality" he was criticizing.

[john9blue]

I miss old man luns.

[AAFitz]

Some have established God as Fictional. The fact that not everyone believes that doesnt mean its not true.

No, but the fact that this has not actually been proven does mean its not necessarily a fact.

You can believe in God or not, but cannot prove either side. Claiming you have that proof is silly.

Evidence, enough to convince you ... fine. But proof? That requires absolute certainty, unshakeable evidence. In this case, evidence of a negative which is almost always impossible.

That said, there are enough silly an ridiculous people on both sides to fill several mansions. Neither really does credit to the sane majority.

well, I meant it to be inherent that I meant Some have established God as fictional, for themselves. I am right there with you with the rest of it.

[AAFitz]

Wow, Fitz. You seem so convinced that I don't think there's any point rehashing all my previous posts on the subject. A few things though:

- As much as atheists claim that they "aren't an organization" and that it's "impossible to call yourself a non-Santa believer" or whatever, they are very much a group and I do see them spreading their beliefs (at least on the Internet) much more than the religious. Why do you think the term "weak atheist" was invented? So that the agnostics could find a group to be part of and a banner to rally behind. Truly intelligent people acknowledge that they don't know whether God exists and that putting too much effort into one side is probably a waste of time.

- If the only proof I had was being told God exists (a common unbased assumption constantly being flung at believers) there's no way I'd believe it. I tend to only trust myself (obviously you have no way of knowing that, and can continue to live in your false world of theistic sheep if you like). My belief revolves primarily around the cosmological argument. So the usual shallow jokes against Christians don't work.

- Take away all the straw men and unbased assumptions, and you'll find that very, very few atheists actually know what they're talking about. There's really a "herd mentality" about it, just like religion. Want to talk about mass delusion? How about the fact that atheists don't even KNOW that they have beliefs? The reason Christianity is used as a target is so atheism looks reasonable in comparison (although, in the usual atheist fashion, it is constantly distorted and oversimplified).

Well, if your assuming im part of some herd mentality, or mass delusion, or not intelligent enough to understand the argument, you are mistaken. Further, I make no attempt to convince you not to believe in God. I think its great that you can keep your faith. Unless you want to do something foolish with it, that affects others, I wish you the best, and hope your faith stays with you and that it enriches your life. I further truly hope there is a God. I hope you get to meet him.

I have been as much as a believer as anyone at times of my life, and never imagined Id lose my faith. I didnt try to or want to. I simply cant fully believe in God. Its as simple as that. I look around, and judge things as unbiased as I can, and even with the desire to believe, but still cannot fully do so. The main reason is that God, very well could be invented by man. There is no question about that. There are so many examples of it, that I need not mention one. The fact that it was invented long ago, and that the same stories are told means nothing to me. I know what the human imagination is capable of. The ONLY real difference between the Christian God, and all the other stories of other Gods, is the number of people who believe in him. IF, the christian God believers were killed, and some other religion took its place, we would be having this discussion about a different God, with a similar set of rules perhaps, but a completely different story.

One of the main problems with the human psyche is that it has a protective system that simply does not like too much change. When there is a current belief, the subconscious tries very hard to protect that belief. There are numerous examples, and religion is one of them. Its why people find it hard to change. The brain certainly can change, but it takes alot of work. It is simply set up to follow a routine, and really does prefer structure to some extent. Dont argue the many examples that this isnt true, because I know all of them. Im only referring to its inherent and basic programming if you will.

What this means is that if a person tries to unbelieve, the brain fights it. The human brain is absolutely brilliant. It knows more than the person who owns it usually. It understands that if a person believes in something, and has to question that, that it can cause emotional distress, emotional uncertainty, and even trauma. It protects itself, by encouraging us to keep the status quo, until something major happens, especially something bad. Now, you may very well have opened up your mind to all the possibilities, and looked around at all the other religions, the other ideas of what and who God is, and what God has done, including those who maintain that He is fictional, and still come to the conclusion, that a Christian God, is the only God that makes sense, to the point of believing that with all of your fiber. Well thats great.

Unfortunately, throught history, extended and short, there are so many examples of people who believe in so many things that are not true, that I know, that beliefs do not necessarily mean anything. I know that even my beliefs do not always mean anything. That is why I question them, and am not afraid to entertain other possibilities. Even as a christian, it really is insane to suggest theres no way that a billion people believing in another religion might not be correct. Of course they might be. If I was born where they were, and had people tell me the same thing, I would believe them too.

So, if you want to look down on athiests, and presume they are less intelligent than you for some reason, thats fine. If you want to define them in one little bundle and stereotype them, thats fine. I simply dont care what you do. It makes no difference to me what you believe. I think anyone who tries to convince someone to either believe, or not believe is actually guilty of a lie of sorts, because they really actually have no idea if there is a God, or if there isnt. If there is a God, and an atheist convinces a believer not to believe, they are guilty of a sin. If there is no God, and a person convinces a person to spend their life worshiping him, they have sinned too.

My Goal is never to convince anyone of anything, only to share my ideas. If your goal is to actually convince someone of something, then be my guest, but if you really are as intelligent as you seem to be implying, you should realize how ridiculous that venture is, especially on a forum like this.

I post here, because the title says "logic dictates that there is a God." and I happen to think its ridiculous. Also, I have no fear that I will change anyones ideas, or that a believer will question his beliefs, which is why I post here. I would never, ever, ever have this conversation anywhere else, where I might actually influence someone, and take the risk of changing their beliefs in a Higher Power, when I have absolutely no proof whatsoever that HE or She may or may not exist. The conversation is for fun essentially. Surely everyone in here knows all of this on a basic level?

I do find it funny that you say most atheists dont know what you are talking about though. The term atheist simply means a person that does not believe in a higher power. The non-atheist, is someone who does. Now, for me to say that every single person who believes in a higher power doesnt know what they are talking about, includes you, hindus, muslims, wicans, baptists, protestants, jews, catholics, all christians in general, and every other religion that has a higher power as thier belief.

Now, as an intelligent person, to lump all of those people into one group is utterly ridiculous, and one who does so, would actually be the one who didnt know what they were talking about. What Ill assume you mean by atheist, are the ones that you see talking about it, and arguing that there is no God. Certainly you cant be including all the ones that never speak on the subject, but are simply atheists, because they dont believe in a higher power. Certainly you cant mean that they have no idea what they are talking about...since essentially, they arent talking.

So, continue to assume you know everything, and have it all figured out, and do not question your beliefs. I know its a hell of a lot easier that way. But dont jump up on an altar and profess this to everyone else, and pretend you know they are wrong. If there is no God, and all atheists that dont believe in him are correct, then that makes you a complete idiot. Since this is just as likely and just as unprovable as there being a God, you might want to acknowledge that. I mean, theres no way you can ever be proven wrong, but that doesnt mean that you arent. What it does mean, is that you really dont know, and pretending to is just silly. Certainly saying that those who dont believe the same thing are less intelligent, is well...not intelligent.

[john9blue]

I pretty much agree, but I think you got the wrong idea. That's just how I approach the issue, with retributive justice (ironic, I know). Many atheists are prone to lumping theists into groups, so I point out that they can act the same way. Oftentimes if I come across as fairly smart it causes people to rethink their views on those who believe in God, which is about as much as I can ask for. I'm not trying to match minds, this isn't Jeopardy!, it's an online forum, lol.

[xelabale]

God

No God

GOD

NO GOD

GOD

NO GOD

GOD

NO GOD

Oh God, make it stop.

GOD

NO GOD

[JoshyBoy]

God

No God

GOD

NO GOD

GOD

NO GOD

GOD

NO GOD

Oh God, make it stop.

GOD

NO GOD

Your posts are always worth a read xelabale.

[AAFitz]

I pretty much agree, but I think you got the wrong idea. That's just how I approach the issue, with retributive justice (ironic, I know). Many atheists are prone to lumping theists into groups, so I point out that they can act the same way. Oftentimes if I come across as fairly smart it causes people to rethink their views on those who believe in God, which is about as much as I can ask for. I'm not trying to match minds, this isn't Jeopardy!, it's an online forum, lol.

Well, youre confusing trying to be intelligent with coming across as intelligent, but ignoring that, to assume that coming acrros will cause people to rethink their views...is well...hopeful at best. As far as matching minds, you were the one that was poining out the essential lack of intelligence of all atheists, who "dont know what they are talking about". Its an online forum as you said, Im just countering what you said, and pointing out its inconsisticies...maybe it will make you rethink your views on atheists.

[notyou2]

Is there a higher power (being(s) more developed than us in our universe or multiverse????....the answer has to be a resounding YES.

Is there a God???....only the one we (humans) have created....so....... NO.

However, since we have created a God, does he exist....YES.......much like Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.

[PLAYER57832]

Is there a higher power (being(s) more developed than us in our universe or multiverse????....the answer has to be a resounding YES.

Is there a God???....only the one we (humans) have created....so....... NO.

However, since we have created a God, does he exist....YES.......much like Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.

Fine. Prove it.

[Dancing Mustard]

Oh f*ck... which retard dug this festering pile of spam back up again?