Validity of the Bible

[Backglass]

To those who has suspected reading disability and lack of understanding capacity

OK...who let George Bush on the forum?

Who is George Bush?

Nobody you would know. You would actually have to watch the news or pick up a paper.

[MOBAJOBG]

Ok. I've searched the internet. George Bush, Sr & Jr was and is the President of USA, respectively.

[MOBAJOBG]

GOD loves ALL people, sinners included.

Of course he does. The millions suffering and dieing around the planet, the children being molested & mutilated, and those starving...wasting away from lack of food.

He especially loves those.

Revelation 21:3
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

These current unfortunate afflictions and realities of life will eventually disappear for GOD's people but not to the rest as follows:-
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Peace and Love.
Over and Out.

[Backglass]

Revelation 21:3
And I heard a blah bla blah blah...mumbo jumbo...deluded rambling

Does reading/quoting from an ancient story book somehow make you feel better about the fact that thousands of children are dieing every day?

Try using your own brain.

[MR. Nate]

Does using those children's existence as evidence against their only hope somehow make you feel better?

Try using your own heart.

[Backglass]

Does using those children's existence as evidence against their only hope somehow make you feel better?

Try using your own heart.

Ahhh...because I point out the fact that; though your god loves everyone, yet hundreds of thousands of kids die annually...I am now heartless. According to you, HE has the power to stop it...I do not. It seems your stealthy, mystery-god is the heartless one.

Maybe it would be easier to just pretend it isnt happening, huh Nate? Just tell yourself "god will take care of them" and "it's all part of his GREAT plan! Hallelujah!" and then it's not your problem anymore!

Hey! Maybe all they need to do is pray and food will fall from the sky...right! I have a feeling those kids and familes have been praying for years and yet, they will still starve to death...abandoned by a god that doesnt exist.

[jay_a2j]

Does using those children's existence as evidence against their only hope somehow make you feel better?

Try using your own heart.

Ahhh...because I point out the fact that; though your god loves everyone, yet hundreds of thousands of kids die annually...I am now heartless. According to you, HE has the power to stop it...I do not. It seems your stealthy, mystery-god is the heartless one.

Maybe it would be easier to just pretend it isnt happening, huh Nate? Just tell yourself "god will take care of them" and "it's all part of his GREAT plan! Hallelujah!" and then it's not your problem anymore!

Hey! Maybe all they need to do is pray and food will fall from the sky...right! I have a feeling those kids and familes have been praying for years and yet, they will still starve to death...abandoned by a god that doesnt exist.

You do have the power to stop it. How many times have you tossed out "left overs" from dinner? Yet people are starving in the world. Does God's Earth not produce enough food to feed the people? I think not. So why does God allow starvation? Why do you?

Man does not live on bread alone, but by every word spoken from the mouth of God.


Food falling from heaven? Wouldn't be the first time its happened. You need to take a real close look at what has turned your heart so hard against God. Sad really....

[Backglass]

You need to take a real close look at what has turned your heart so hard against God. Sad really....

<Broken record time again>

You really need to take a real close look at what has turned your heart so hard against leprechauns. Why do you hate them so by denying their existence?

What's truly sad jay, is that you will die believing in these fairy tales, rituals & superstitions.

[vtmarik]

Why is it that Christians like Jay are so proud of being fatalistic and forever chasing their own demise?

"Oh, I'll have eternal life in Heaven"
No, you'll be dead. Your soul may go to heaven, but you'll still be dead. Calling being dead "eternal life" is a salesman's trick.

"Live according to God's Will"
A total contradiction. If we're supposed to choose God and then reject all other choices afterward, how is that really free will? If the game is rigged, why play?

"God has a plan for me"
Good for you, but doesn't he have a plan for everyone? Calling attention to the fact that you are just like everyone else doesn't make you special, it just makes you egotistical.

"Well, I've been saved" or "I'm going to live in Heaven with God"
Bonzer for you bud. This is one of my favorites because, at its roots, you're only saying "I'm better than you are!" Unfortunately, this preschool-level taunt only makes you look foolish in the long run as it implies judgment.



And I love that whole thing about tossing out left overs. I mean, we've all seen the Christian fund commercials with the sanctimonious guy who looks like Santa telling us all to donate our money to help feed the hungry. Instead of filming a commercial to tell us to do it, why don't they just take the production budget and feed a whole bunch of kids? Don't stand there in a squalor of a town and tell me to spend my money when you won't do it yourselves you hypocritical bastards.

[XenHu]

Why is it that Christians like Jay are so proud of being fatalistic and forever chasing their own demise?

"Oh, I'll have eternal life in Heaven"
No, you'll be dead. Your soul may go to heaven, but you'll still be dead. Calling being dead "eternal life" is a salesman's trick.

"Live according to God's Will"
A total contradiction. If we're supposed to choose God and then reject all other choices afterward, how is that really free will? If the game is rigged, why play?

"God has a plan for me"
Good for you, but doesn't he have a plan for everyone? Calling attention to the fact that you are just like everyone else doesn't make you special, it just makes you egotistical.

"Well, I've been saved" or "I'm going to live in Heaven with God"
Bonzer for you bud. This is one of my favorites because, at its roots, you're only saying "I'm better than you are!" Unfortunately, this preschool-level taunt only makes you look foolish in the long run as it implies judgment.



And I love that whole thing about tossing out left overs. I mean, we've all seen the Christian fund commercials with the sanctimonious guy who looks like Santa telling us all to donate our money to help feed the hungry. Instead of filming a commercial to tell us to do it, why don't they just take the production budget and feed a whole bunch of kids? Don't stand there in a squalor of a town and tell me to spend my money when you won't do it yourselves you hypocritical bastards.

[2dimes]

"Well, I've been saved" or "I'm going to live in Heaven with God"
Bonzer for you bud. This is one of my favorites because, at its roots, you're only saying "I'm better than you are!" Unfortunately, this preschool-level taunt only makes you look foolish in the long run as it implies judgment.

Since this is a bible thread I'll give you my take on what is written in there regarding what I'm getting out of this paragraph.

The way my favorite bible author Paul puts it. We are all scum and can't go to heaven except by accepting Jesus and his sacrifice.

But I understand how when you hear it from "christians" it sounds like they're throwing it in your face. "I'm going to heaven nyah!"

It shouldn't sound that way, they should be telling you in fear and hope.

And I love that whole thing about tossing out left overs. I mean, we've all seen the Christian fund commercials with the sanctimonious guy who looks like Santa telling us all to donate our money to help feed the hungry. Instead of filming a commercial to tell us to do it, why don't they just take the production budget and feed a whole bunch of kids? Don't stand there in a squalor of a town and tell me to spend my money when you won't do it yourselves you hypocritical bastards.

I kind of agree with you on this second paragraph.

The tossing out left overs, though I personally think is a bad thing to do. It is a pretty dumb thing to bring up. What is the point, that people should mail their excess food to Africa?

As for the christian fund world hunger what ever out fits. If anyone works for one of those organisations they get brain washed into thinking it's the best or maybe the only way to solve the problem. I think it's probably over all a positive thing.

If they have $5000 and make one of those commercials I assure you it'll generate more money by getting people to give that wouldn't have if the commercial didn't air.

Sure they're corrupt and there's people getting paid by it that shouldn't but I still think they're doing more to directly solve the problem than I did today.

So I say good for them

[Backglass]

As for the christian fund world hunger what ever out fits. If anyone works for one of those organisations they get brain washed into thinking it's the best or maybe the only way to solve the problem. I think it's probably over all a positive thing.

As a side note...

The War In Iraq Costs $355,151,781,425 as of a few minutes ago.

Instead, we could have fully funded global anti-hunger efforts for 14 years.

http://costofwar.com/index-world-hunger.html

[vtmarik]

I guarantee you that if the various religious organizations, personalities, and individual churches donated a third of their proceeds to stopping world hunger, it'd be fucking solved by now.

No commercials, no guilt-tripping, no questions.

[2dimes]

Well I'll have to go all metiphorical on you here VT. Prepare to disagree and yell. "Lies!"

Is it possible poverty and starvation exists intentionally and God allows it for the time being to bring his existance into question?

If you read Job, God has a dialogue with Satan and agrees to let him torture the man on earth that believes in God completly and is his most loyal servant.

Most of the things in the bible that happen to people are stories of how Satan tries to get people to believe either.
a.)God does not exist
or
b.)maybe he exists but you can get along better by avoiding relying on him.

I know you want to think the church down the street has all the money in they need, but the ones that would be really interested in helping the poor are probably poor themselves.

There is questions regarding who's really in charge at the top of the huge organised "Christian" Churches. The leaders of the big cults Latter Day Saints, Witnesses and the one with a Pope, are probably just like you're thinking.

I suspect those three might have the finances to put a dent in world hunger but wouldn't bother because those dirty poor people aren't members of their church.

Some times a renagade member of the one with the pope gets loose and opens shop in India or something. ie. Ma Teresa but it's probably frowned upon.

[2dimes]

The War In Iraq Costs $355,151,781,425 as of a few minutes ago.

Instead, we could have fully funded global anti-hunger efforts for 14 years.

http://costofwar.com/index-world-hunger.html

That's true but how would feeding poor people help wealthy people?

War industries are much better to invest in if you have wealth. Not only is the profit margin higher but you end up with an industry that developes usefull products to make your life better. Carbon fibre for airplanes and really high end cars, computers for Mp3 players, self diagnosing refrigerators etc.

If you spend money feeding people it will lead to them wanting jobs, cars etc. then that will take more economic resources, not to mention if the population gets too big and everyones fed they'll want to move to the nice places.

[vtmarik]

Well I'll have to go all metiphorical on you here VT. Prepare to disagree and yell. "Lies!"

Is it possible poverty and starvation exists intentionally and God allows it for the time being to bring his existance into question?

If you read Job, God has a dialogue with Satan and agrees to let him torture the man on earth that believes in God completly and is his most loyal servant.

Most of the things in the bible that happen to people are stories of how Satan tries to get people to believe either.
a.)God does not exist
or
b.)maybe he exists but you can get along better by avoiding relying on him.

So, God lets poverty go on so we would doubt Him? Is that supposed to confirm our faith in Him? Doesn't that sound the least bit counterintuitive, not to mention horrendously ineffective?

I don't know about you, but the logic there is a teensy bit fuzzy.

I'm familiar with the story of Job, I'm also familiar with the concept of the parable. Job teaches us one of two things, depending on your spin:

A) Faith conquers all.
or
B) God will simply turn a blind eye to the needless suffering of a man just to settle a bet with a rival being.

Both interpretations are mutually valid and can exist at the same time as one another. So, we have one side saying "Hey look, his faith stayed strong because he believed" while the other side said "Hey look, he kept praying to a being who was going to ignore him to prove a point. What a dumbass!"

I know you want to think the church down the street has all the money in they need, but the ones that would be really interested in helping the poor are probably poor themselves.

There is questions regarding who's really in charge at the top of the huge organised "Christian" Churches. The leaders of the big cults Latter Day Saints, Witnesses and the one with a Pope, are probably just like you're thinking.

I suspect those three might have the finances to put a dent in world hunger but wouldn't bother because those dirty poor people aren't members of their church.

Some times a renagade member of the one with the pope gets loose and opens shop in India or something. ie. Ma Teresa but it's probably frowned upon.

I said all religious organizations and individuals, not just the little church down the street.

If individual churches, religious organizations (such as Political Action Committees and Mission groups), and various religious personalities (by which I mean those morons on TV who are pulling in obscene amounts of money) were to collectively pool their cash and give 1/3 a year to feed the hungry, maybe we wouldn't need organizations spending 5,000-10,000 dollars a pop to tell us to give.

[2dimes]

So, God lets poverty go on so we would doubt Him? Is that supposed to confirm our faith in Him? Doesn't that sound the least bit counterintuitive, not to mention horrendously ineffective?

I don't know about you, but the logic there is a teensy bit fuzzy.

I'm familiar with the story of Job, I'm also familiar with the concept of the parable. Job teaches us one of two things, depending on your spin:

A) Faith conquers all.
or
B) God will simply turn a blind eye to the needless suffering of a man just to settle a bet with a rival being.

Both interpretations are mutually valid and can exist at the same time as one another. So, we have one side saying "Hey look, his faith stayed strong because he believed" while the other side said "Hey look, he kept praying to a being who was going to ignore him to prove a point. What a dumbass!"

Of course it's not logical. Isn't faith the opposite of logic? It's not to confirm faith it's supposed to challenge it. The end result is you either drop it or it's strengthened.

I think faith is defined as "The belief in the unknown and the hope for the unseen." or something. (too lazy to look that one up.)

The logic shouldn't be fuzzy, it should be tossed out the window.

Through out the old testament God's this jealous guy that just wants everyone to choose him as their friend. The whole time Egypt had all the cool stuff everyone wanted. The book is loaded with, "Don't go back to the ways of Egypt." etc.

That wouldn't be in there if people didn't keep going, "Hey remember in Egypt when we had that cool stuff?" "Yeah we should so get some of that!"

I don't see the Job thing as a bet, more like a dare, bet does fit the way I percieve the conversation better I suppose.
"I bet I can get Job to curse you."

"No you can't, go ahead and try."

[2dimes]

If individual churches, religious organizations (such as Political Action Committees and Mission groups), and various religious personalities (by which I mean those morons on TV who are pulling in obscene amounts of money) were to collectively pool their cash and give 1/3 a year to feed the hungry, maybe we wouldn't need organizations spending 5,000-10,000 dollars a pop to tell us to give.

I sort of agreed. I think the ones that have larger amounts of loot tend to became a business instead of a mission.

The thing is that as soon as any sect or religion gains momentum one of the more important things becomes the concept that all the other ones are wrong. Therefore co-operation is nearly impossible.

[MR. Nate]

So, God lets poverty go on so we would doubt Him? Is that supposed to confirm our faith in Him? Doesn't that sound the least bit counterintuitive, not to mention horrendously ineffective?

I don't know about you, but the logic there is a teensy bit fuzzy.

I'm familiar with the story of Job, I'm also familiar with the concept of the parable. Job teaches us one of two things, depending on your spin:

A) Faith conquers all.
or
B) God will simply turn a blind eye to the needless suffering of a man just to settle a bet with a rival being.

Both interpretations are mutually valid and can exist at the same time as one another. So, we have one side saying "Hey look, his faith stayed strong because he believed" while the other side said "Hey look, he kept praying to a being who was going to ignore him to prove a point. What a dumbass!"

Of course it's not logical. Isn't faith the opposite of logic? It's not to confirm faith it's supposed to challenge it. The end result is you either drop it or it's strengthened.

I think faith is defined as "The belief in the unknown and the hope for the unseen." or something. (too lazy to look that one up.)

The logic shouldn't be fuzzy, it should be tossed out the window.

vtmarik - Both interpretations are NOT equally valid. In one interpretation, Job is smart for persevering, in the other, god is a jerk and job is lucky. Both interpretations "exist" in that people think both of them, but they are not both valid. Validity implies correspondence with truth, so you have to make a decision, either god is a jerk or Job is smart. - and Job is considered wisdom, not parable.

2dimes - faith is the evidence of things hoped for & the evidence of things not seen, according to Heb 11:1. Please don't toss logic out the window. Logic is important, and flows from the nature of God, just like Love and Justice.

The logic of suffering goes something like this. God allowed us to have free will. That meant that originally, we rejected Him. That caused the world to start in a downward spiral. As the (originally perfect) world degenerates, some people choose to follow God. Most don't, pointing to the ongoing degeneration of the world that they caused to fall apart as evidence that God isn't there, when actually, He's just allowing the system to go on the course that people chose for it. The reason that He doesn't just stop the system is because when He does, the free will ends, and God still wants people to have free will.

[vtmarik]

vtmarik - Both interpretations are NOT equally valid. In one interpretation, Job is smart for persevering, in the other, god is a jerk and job is lucky. Both interpretations "exist" in that people think both of them, but they are not both valid. Validity implies correspondence with truth, so you have to make a decision, either god is a jerk or Job is smart. - and Job is considered wisdom, not parable.

I'm not sure if it was Kierkegaard or Kant who said that all points of view are equally valid.

And faith can exist with logic, just the same that religion can coexist with science.

You can defend your faith logically (by saying "I have faith because it makes sense to me." It's logical), but saying that God wants us to doubt in His existence so we'll believe that He exists is what some might call a self-annihilating statement. Like the term Meteoric Rise or the sentence "He fills a much-needed gap."

And it's still a wager. Daring someone to try and get a believer to disbelieve by torturing him is just as sadistic and uncaring as doing the torturing yourself.

[Backglass]

The logic of suffering goes something like this. God allowed us to have free will. That meant that originally, we rejected Him. That caused the world to start in a downward spiral. As the (originally perfect) world degenerates, some people choose to follow God. Most don't, pointing to the ongoing degeneration of the world that they caused to fall apart as evidence that God isn't there, when actually, He's just allowing the system to go on the course that people chose for it. The reason that He doesn't just stop the system is because when He does, the free will ends, and God still wants people to have free will.

So thats "logic" huh? OK.

The logic of Unicorns goes something like this. Unicorns allow people to be happy. This means that unicorns have existed since time began as so many people ARE very happy. The unhappy people dont believe in Unicorns...which is why they are so bad off. Now Unicorns have the power to make EVERYONE happy by poking them with their magic horn, but they dont want to do that...they want people to BELIEVE in them. Those that believe, are truly happy.

It's perfectly logical...and fantasies, both.

[2dimes]

I think of faith as believing an old tire will make a trip.

I think of logic as putting on a new tire.

I suppose you need to believe the new tire will make the trip too, because the new tire might fail, but it seems different to me.

[vtmarik]

I think of faith as believing an old tire will make a trip.

I think of logic as putting on a new tire.

I suppose you need to believe the new tire will make the trip too, because the new tire might fail, but it seems different to me.

A more accurate description would be:

Faith is going to the mechanic and 'knowing' that he/she can discover the problems that your vehicle is having on his/her own. Logic is telling the mechanic what problems exist.

That doesn't affect the original faith that the mechanic could discover the problems on his/her own, it just covers all of your bases in case he could have missed one.

[MR. Nate]

I'm not sure if it was Kierkegaard or Kant who said that all points of view are equally valid.

It sounds more like Kierkegaard, but it's also one of the bedrocks of postmodernity. And it's absolutly idiotic. Let's say for example, that I believe Backglass is a unicorn. And let's say that Backglass himself believes that he is a leprechaun. And let's say that vtmarik believes Backglass is an elf king. And 2dimes believes that he's a human being (albeit slightly unstable due to his self image ) Can all viewpoints be equally valid? No, clearly at least 3 of us are delusianal.

[heavycola]

The logic of suffering goes something like this. God allowed us to have free will. That meant that originally, we rejected Him. That caused the world to start in a downward spiral. As the (originally perfect) world degenerates, some people choose to follow God. Most don't, pointing to the ongoing degeneration of the world that they caused to fall apart as evidence that God isn't there, when actually, He's just allowing the system to go on the course that people chose for it. The reason that He doesn't just stop the system is because when He does, the free will ends, and God still wants people to have free will.

What about the millions of deaths caused by tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, malaria and famine each year? What have they got to do with our decision to exercise our free will?
It seems to me that the logic behind those kinds of suffering stems directly from the laws of physics themselves, which are the closest thing we have to absolute truth - unlike Job's suffering, which was arbitrary and pointless, or God's demand that Abraham commit filicide.

Faith and logic aren't compatible IMO. God wants us to love him, but refuses to demonstrate his existence. heaven knows, if he appeared in the sky tomorrow - doesn;t have to intervene at all, just show himself - then i'll believe, and i'll love him for making all this cool stuff, no questions. So why not do it?

And if he refuses to intervene because of his great free-will project, then why end it at the last judgment? Either free will is good, or bad. God should know. So either it continues, or it doesn't. A god who ends it abruptly didn't really know what he was doing in the first place.