BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN SHOWN IN SCHOOL

[luns101]

And luns, I distinctly remember using the words "anal sex" when mentioning ONE alternative factor than simply being homosexual as putting a person at greater risk for transmitting HIV. Maybe you missed that, although you DID quote it and even asked me what I think "they're doing", and mentioned "holding hands", probably to add a slightly humorous touch. To be fair, I'll admit that I should have said "unprotected anal sex" to make it absolutely clear.

Yeah, I was using humor...hope it didn't come across too sarcastically. I've been pretty annoyed with Iliad's comments, and shouldn't bring them over to my discussion with you and Bertros, who I still appreciate debating/discussing this with.

So you don't agree with my definition of "tolerant" as meaning that a person accepts alternatives to his opinions/lifestyle/whatever as equal and valid. Note that I'm not saying you have to agree with it, just accept it as equal and valid. Well, what is your definition? Obviously you think you have a better one, so please, share it with the rest of us.

Yeah, it's true that I don't accept it as equal and valid. Allowing people to be practicing homosexuals would be my definition. This new definition of "tolerance" that's being put forth requires acceptance.

The new definition of tolerance (acceptance as equal and valid) casts followers of Christ as the bad guys...in fact - intolerant bad guys. That's why I reject the definition. If you look back at the beginning of this thread it took about 5 minutes for the first "homophobic" accusation to be thrown. I believe that's because Jay has a "Jesus Freaks" banner in his signature and people here look at that and automatically define Christians as being "intolerant" (according to this new defintion of tolerance as being acceptance).

MeDeFe, I've answered your questions and provided you with sources for my beliefs on the contraction of AIDS. It's extremely frustrating that once again I don't see people asking for sources from the other side...and that's not intended as sarcasm. I'm just telling you how I feel about the whole thing because it seems that regardless of what issue is being discussed, Christ followers are demanded to give out sources while others get a free pass. Would you at least admit that I'm giving you a reasonable position for my beliefs and not running around screaming PRAISE THE LAWD!...Convert, Convert!

Perhaps all the liberals on this site would join me in banning the showing of ISHTAR in all public schools.

[luns101]

Question: If God was visible for all to see, maybe an immense unbearable light in the sky with His voice audibly heard by all... would you then worship Him?

Uh Jay,

A worldwide flood, a talking donkey, wet fleece/dry fleece for Gideon, the sun standing still for Joshua, 10 plagues against Egypt, parting of the Red Sea, Assyrian army being wiped out by an angel, Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed, Daniel in the lion's den, Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego being saved from the fiery furnce, Elijah calling down fire from heaven against the prophets of Baal, Samson killing a lion with his bare hands, fiery cloud leading Israel, bronze snake replica curing all who look upon it, manna & quail, Jericho tumbling down, a giant hand writing on the wall for the entire Chaldean court to see, the virgin birth of Christ, the miracles Jesus performed on earth, the resurrection of Christ, the ascension of Christ to heaven in front of witnesses, the miracles performed by the apostles...and that's just the short list!

If someone doesn't want to believe, they're not going to. I doubt a bright light in the sky with an audible voice is going to convince anyone. Miracles have already been provided and recorded. They are dismissed as hogwash and mythology for the weak-minded.

[Iliad]

Because they are. And you do realise those stories have been retold so many times they were probably not true anyway?

Jesus probably had a coma. The 10 plagues is accounted for some volcano I think, etc.

[Neutrino]

Question: If God was visible for all to see, maybe an immense unbearable light in the sky with His voice audibly heard by all... would you then worship Him?

Uh Jay,

A worldwide flood, a talking donkey, wet fleece/dry fleece for Gideon, the sun standing still for Joshua, 10 plagues against Egypt, parting of the Red Sea, Assyrian army being wiped out by an angel, Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed, Daniel in the lion's den, Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego being saved from the fiery furnce, Elijah calling down fire from heaven against the prophets of Baal, Samson killing a lion with his bare hands, fiery cloud leading Israel, bronze snake replica curing all who look upon it, manna & quail, Jericho tumbling down, a giant hand writing on the wall for the entire Chaldean court to see, the virgin birth of Christ, the miracles Jesus performed on earth, the resurrection of Christ, the ascension of Christ to heaven in front of witnesses, the miracles performed by the apostles...and that's just the short list!

If someone doesn't want to believe, they're not going to. I doubt a bright light in the sky with an audible voice is going to convince anyone. Miracles have already been provided and recorded. They are dismissed as hogwash and mythology for the weak-minded.

Yes, but its all 2000+ years old. I think this age is much more deserving of godly intervention than any previous one, since at that time, a lack of miracles would only mean the defeat of one small desert tribe and not what might possibly be the destruction of all reasonably complex life on this planet (not that it wont evolve back to its former complexity, its just there wont be anyhumans around to see it).

[Jenos Ridan]

thats bull whos 12 years old andin 8th grade?
and we watched that roman movie about that guy and the trojan horse and achilles the teacher fast forwarded the woo woo scenes tho

Are you lost?

Not only that, he is incoherent. Question to OojakoO: are you any of the following: drunk, stoned, bombed, high or 'buzzin'?

[Iliad]

thats bull whos 12 years old andin 8th grade?
and we watched that roman movie about that guy and the trojan horse and achilles the teacher fast forwarded the woo woo scenes tho

Are you lost?

Not only that, he is incoherent. Question to OojakoO: are you any of the following: drunk, stoned, bombed, high or 'buzzin'?

Perhaps in History lessons?

[Jenos Ridan]

Question: If God was visible for all to see, maybe an immense unbearable light in the sky with His voice audibly heard by all... would you then worship Him?

Uh Jay,

A worldwide flood, a talking donkey, wet fleece/dry fleece for Gideon, the sun standing still for Joshua, 10 plagues against Egypt, parting of the Red Sea, Assyrian army being wiped out by an angel, Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed, Daniel in the lion's den, Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego being saved from the fiery furnce, Elijah calling down fire from heaven against the prophets of Baal, Samson killing a lion with his bare hands, fiery cloud leading Israel, bronze snake replica curing all who look upon it, manna & quail, Jericho tumbling down, a giant hand writing on the wall for the entire Chaldean court to see, the virgin birth of Christ, the miracles Jesus performed on earth, the resurrection of Christ, the ascension of Christ to heaven in front of witnesses, the miracles performed by the apostles...and that's just the short list!

If someone doesn't want to believe, they're not going to. I doubt a bright light in the sky with an audible voice is going to convince anyone. Miracles have already been provided and recorded. They are dismissed as hogwash and mythology for the weak-minded.

Basically what I said. But as usual, nobody 'cept my brethren hears a word of it. They call us 'close-minded, superstitious, hatred-spewing, ignorant barbarians' (though, not in so many words and in an indirect, fake-polite/lying manner), we simply call them 'unbelievers' (and we tend to leave it at that). They're just not gonna see the light, but that is ok. Given how screwed up the world is in general, we are lucky to even be having these debate at all.

[heavycola]

Funny how NONE of the gods/devils that all the religions of the world claim to exist have ever appeared and shown themselves to ANYONE....EVER. (unless you count the circumstantial example given above or the extremely shaky "no witnesses" accounts in various ancient religious texts . )

Jesus has appeared to men and will again. And Scripture accounts for a lot of "witnesses" of Jesus.

Question: If God was visible for all to see, maybe an immense unbearable light in the sky with His voice audibly heard by all... would you then worship Him?

Witnesses: King Herod, we found his tomb not long ago.
Pontius Piliate, recorded in roman records and in scripture as governor of Judea. At the moment, I can recall little else.

erm, except that Quirinius' census that took mary and joesph back to bethlehem didn't happen during herod's rule. The two accounts are historically incompatible.

Also - I would like to reiterate in case anyone feels like answering: Why would god reveal himself to individuals in the US, heal them or 'show them ' stuff, when millions of his children die from disease, hunger, tsunamis etc etc every year without any divine intervention at all? Either god is interventionist or he isn't, and if he is: what have they done wrong? And what have the select few done right? Are they better, worthier people?

[Balsiefen]

Question: If God was visible for all to see, maybe an immense unbearable light in the sky with His voice audibly heard by all... would you then worship Him?

Uh Jay,

A worldwide flood, a talking donkey, wet fleece/dry fleece for Gideon, the sun standing still for Joshua, 10 plagues against Egypt, parting of the Red Sea, Assyrian army being wiped out by an angel, Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed, Daniel in the lion's den, Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego being saved from the fiery furnce, Elijah calling down fire from heaven against the prophets of Baal, Samson killing a lion with his bare hands, fiery cloud leading Israel, bronze snake replica curing all who look upon it, manna & quail, Jericho tumbling down, a giant hand writing on the wall for the entire Chaldean court to see, the virgin birth of Christ, the miracles Jesus performed on earth, the resurrection of Christ, the ascension of Christ to heaven in front of witnesses, the miracles performed by the apostles...and that's just the short list!

If someone doesn't want to believe, they're not going to. I doubt a bright light in the sky with an audible voice is going to convince anyone. Miracles have already been provided and recorded. They are dismissed as hogwash and mythology for the weak-minded.

i disagree, all these happened on hearsay, were badly recorded, and were jazzed up when the bible was written to make christianity sound more interesting. none happened less than 2000 years ago

[Jenos Ridan]

Because they are. And you do realise those stories have been retold so many times they were probably not true anyway?

Jesus probably had a coma. The 10 plagues is accounted for some volcano I think, etc.

EDIT

I saw that TV special, very interesting theory, but it only explains the natural element. If I recall right, the speaker said the question of whether God was responcible or not was unanswerable but not ruled out, even likely.

[Iliad]

I didn't see that! I just read it somewhere.

[Jenos Ridan]

I didn't see that! I just read it somewhere.

I watched the whole thing, it broke it all down step by step, not just the Ten Plagues, but even the parting of 'the sea of reeds' (not the red sea, that is a common misconception). It all actual was caused by an earthquake under Africa, which set off the Big Ten, including the eruption at Santorini and the flooding of Pharoh's army. A complex chain of events, possibly it could be written off as mere probability, but it all happen in exactlly the same order as in scripture. Not that this is 'proof', for if I were to say that it were undeniable proof of God, it would be dismissed without consideration. So it is best left as a mystery for us to wonder and debate it's signifigance.

[Iliad]

I didn't see that! I just read it somewhere.

I watched the whole thing, it broke it all down step by step, not just the Ten Plagues, but even the parting of 'the sea of reeds' (not the red sea, that is a common misconception). It all actual was caused by an earthquake under Africa, which set off the Big Ten, including the eruption at Santorini and the flooding of Pharoh's army. A complex chain of events, possibly it could be written off as mere probability, but it all happen in exactlly the same order as in scripture. Not that this is 'proof', for if I were to say that it were undeniable proof of God, it would be dismissed without consideration. So it is best left as a mystery for us to wonder and debate it's signifigance.

how is that proof? Yeah they wrote down what happened and it was correct!

[MeDeFe]

If I recall right, the speaker said the question of whether God was responcible or not was unanswerable but not ruled out

If I weren't agnostic I'd say "Amen" to that. As it is I'll say "Word", and go with whatever requires fewer and better explainable premisses.

[Jenos Ridan]

I didn't see that! I just read it somewhere.

I watched the whole thing, it broke it all down step by step, not just the Ten Plagues, but even the parting of 'the sea of reeds' (not the red sea, that is a common misconception). It all actual was caused by an earthquake under Africa, which set off the Big Ten, including the eruption at Santorini and the flooding of Pharoh's army. A complex chain of events, possibly it could be written off as mere probability, but it all happen in exactlly the same order as in scripture. Not that this is 'proof', for if I were to say that it were undeniable proof of God, it would be dismissed without consideration. So it is best left as a mystery for us to wonder and debate it's signifigance.

how is that proof? Yeah they wrote down what happened and it was correct!

Hence why I left the subject up to discussion, just like the presenter did on the show. But at least, we know the events recorded were real and they happened. All I've got to say really.

[Jenos Ridan]

If I recall right, the speaker said the question of whether God was responcible or not was unanswerable but not ruled out

If I weren't agnostic I'd say "Amen" to that. As it is I'll say "Word", and go with whatever requires fewer and better explainable premisses.

It least you're not claiming that this is 'propaganda' I manufactured just hours earlier.

[Dancing Mustard]

Also - I would like to reiterate in case anyone feels like answering: Why would god reveal himself to individuals in the US, heal them or 'show them ' stuff, when millions of his children die from disease, hunger, tsunamis etc etc every year without any divine intervention at all? Either god is interventionist or he isn't, and if he is: what have they done wrong? And what have the select few done right? Are they better, worthier people?

So far as I can tell it's because he's busy 'revealing' himself to Jay on a nightly basis.

[Iliad]

Also - I would like to reiterate in case anyone feels like answering: Why would god reveal himself to individuals in the US, heal them or 'show them ' stuff, when millions of his children die from disease, hunger, tsunamis etc etc every year without any divine intervention at all? Either god is interventionist or he isn't, and if he is: what have they done wrong? And what have the select few done right? Are they better, worthier people?

So far as I can tell it's because he's busy 'revealing' himself to Jay on a nightly basis.

no wonder jay is a christian

[Bertros Bertros]

luns the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is a US based organisation whose data is drawn from US states. Try looking in the WHOs excellent online statistical database to find incidences of HIV in different socio-economic groups in for example African countries or perhaps India where the highest rate of infection currently exists. You'll find very different trends.

Yes, and the US is where this incident of sneakily showing the movie took place. Now you're going outside the US in order to disregard facts that don't conform to your template. The fact remains that men having sex with other men is putting them at greater risk of contracting the virus within this country.

As much as you don't like it you are still being delibreately obtuse, which is very different from sarcasm.

I can see that you really like using that word. I'll just say your assertion is unfounded based on what you've presented.

Now Bertros, my contention is that Hollywood is producing movies that show homosexuality to be normal, while casting Christians (and other groups who disagree with it) as being uptight, self-righteous, hypocritical, and dehumanizing individuals with little or no compassion. In reality it is Christians who are going out and trying to assist those who are dying of AIDS. I'll ask this question of you again: where are the Hollywood movies telling that side of the story? If you can't find me one, then I believe I've made a valid point is stating that Hollywood has a specific agenda to slander Christ followers on this issue.

You've made an insinuation that I not allow myself into being fooled that Christianity has a monopoly on compassion. When I asked you for a quote which said I did, you did not provide one. Can you?

You made another insinuation towards me stating that I believe that simply "being" homosexual makes one contract HIV, when in fact I said that homosexual "behavior" leads to a higher risk of this. I referenced the CDC to back up this claim, and you changed the subject to the WHO. Are you willing to alter your original assertions?

luns, this is getting a bit silly? I don't like petty tit-for-tat arguing which is why I didn't respond to your "provide a direct quote of me saying that" style questions. You didn't say Christianity has a monopoly on compassion, I did, I know that and so do you, so how could I quote you on it? What you did say and have said again above (wording may have been slightly different before) is:

"In reality it is Christians who are going out and trying to assist those who are dying of AIDS."

This infers that Christians are the only people assisting those with AIDS and when read in context further infers that the people who are bemoaning Christians are not. Now you know full well that people from all walks of life, with and without faith, are carers of the sick, and that conversely some aren't. It is this sort of deliberate choice to not use your full insight of the situation to make your words sound more powerful in support of your argument that led me to accuse you of being obtuse. If you have taken offence at that please note I am not saying you are obtuse, but rather that you are acting as such.


As for Hollywood, I am not a movie buff I'm afraid. I have seen Brokeback and at no point in the movie were Christians, Christianity or indeed any other religious group represented in a negative fashion in respect of their beliefs about homosexuality. I don't think I have ever heard of a film which was deliberately trying to push that agenda. I have heard of plenty pushing a gay rights agenda, but then the gay community are the ones being prejudiced against so thats to be expected. I can't think off hand of a movie which is about a Christian being a carer for a sufferer of HIV, like I said I'm not a move buff and I don't have the time or the incliniation to go off researching it for the sake of argument. Just because I can't hardly demonstrates a specific agenda on Hollywood's part, especially when you haven't presented any evidence of movies where Christians (specifically Christians rather than homophobes) are shown in a bad light on this issue.

I didn't insinuate that you thought being homosexual lead to HIV. I said you were being obtuse (see above) in that you were presenting HIV as a reason to abhor homosexuality when it is in reality a virus which affects us all. Just because we are talking about a film shown in the US doesn't mean you can ignore the rest of the world to use biased statistics in support of your position, hence I brought in the WHO.

What actually made me respond to you in the first place was the line about hopelessness in the eyes of those who contracted it through homosexual behavior. This time an inference that the hopelessness was due to the homosexual behavior. What about the bloke in the next bed who was born haemophiliac and got given infected blood... is he not feeling hopeless because he is not gay? Of course not. Its deliberately not being insightful of the full situation to make your argument sound more compelling, which is all I was drawing attention to.

[jay_a2j]

Question: If God was visible for all to see, maybe an immense unbearable light in the sky with His voice audibly heard by all... would you then worship Him?

Uh Jay,

A worldwide flood, a talking donkey, wet fleece/dry fleece for Gideon, the sun standing still for Joshua, 10 plagues against Egypt, parting of the Red Sea, Assyrian army being wiped out by an angel, Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed, Daniel in the lion's den, Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego being saved from the fiery furnce, Elijah calling down fire from heaven against the prophets of Baal, Samson killing a lion with his bare hands, fiery cloud leading Israel, bronze snake replica curing all who look upon it, manna & quail, Jericho tumbling down, a giant hand writing on the wall for the entire Chaldean court to see, the virgin birth of Christ, the miracles Jesus performed on earth, the resurrection of Christ, the ascension of Christ to heaven in front of witnesses, the miracles performed by the apostles...and that's just the short list!

If someone doesn't want to believe, they're not going to. I doubt a bright light in the sky with an audible voice is going to convince anyone. Miracles have already been provided and recorded. They are dismissed as hogwash and mythology for the weak-minded.

Yeah, all true. Some people, even if God "showed Himself" would still not serve Him unfortunately.


Also, to those who are looking for a more recent "Divine intervention". I recall seeing something on the History channel I believe, about the formation of the USA. The British burning Washington DC and an "inexplicable storm" forcing the British troops to retreat. I sat there and thought, "Wow, God was there with us from the beginning." (just for later for us to turn our backs on Him )

[unriggable]

Question: If God was visible for all to see, maybe an immense unbearable light in the sky with His voice audibly heard by all... would you then worship Him?

Uh Jay,

A worldwide flood, a talking donkey, wet fleece/dry fleece for Gideon, the sun standing still for Joshua, 10 plagues against Egypt, parting of the Red Sea, Assyrian army being wiped out by an angel, Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed, Daniel in the lion's den, Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego being saved from the fiery furnce, Elijah calling down fire from heaven against the prophets of Baal, Samson killing a lion with his bare hands, fiery cloud leading Israel, bronze snake replica curing all who look upon it, manna & quail, Jericho tumbling down, a giant hand writing on the wall for the entire Chaldean court to see, the virgin birth of Christ, the miracles Jesus performed on earth, the resurrection of Christ, the ascension of Christ to heaven in front of witnesses, the miracles performed by the apostles...and that's just the short list!

If someone doesn't want to believe, they're not going to. I doubt a bright light in the sky with an audible voice is going to convince anyone. Miracles have already been provided and recorded. They are dismissed as hogwash and mythology for the weak-minded.

Yeah, all true. Some people, even if God "showed Himself" would still not serve Him unfortunately.

If he did merge I'd believe in him, until then, I'm atheist. And I expect him never to show up, because I don't think he is even there.

Also, to those who are looking for a more recent "Divine intervention". I recall seeing something on the History channel I believe, about the formation of the USA. The British burning Washington DC and an "inexplicable storm" forcing the British troops to retreat. I sat there and thought, "Wow, God was there with us from the beginning." (just for later for us to turn our backs on Him )

Wow, umm, irony? Here's the thing: If you believe in miracles you expect them. If you expect them then anything out of the ordinary will look like a miracle. That wasn't any divine intervention. And what about God's divine plan anyways? Wouldn't divine intervention skew it? What about praying? God has the whole plan laid out from beginning to end yet is willing to give it all up for a request by ONE believer?

[heavycola]

Question: If God was visible for all to see, maybe an immense unbearable light in the sky with His voice audibly heard by all... would you then worship Him?

Uh Jay,

A worldwide flood, a talking donkey, wet fleece/dry fleece for Gideon, the sun standing still for Joshua, 10 plagues against Egypt, parting of the Red Sea, Assyrian army being wiped out by an angel, Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed, Daniel in the lion's den, Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego being saved from the fiery furnce, Elijah calling down fire from heaven against the prophets of Baal, Samson killing a lion with his bare hands, fiery cloud leading Israel, bronze snake replica curing all who look upon it, manna & quail, Jericho tumbling down, a giant hand writing on the wall for the entire Chaldean court to see, the virgin birth of Christ, the miracles Jesus performed on earth, the resurrection of Christ, the ascension of Christ to heaven in front of witnesses, the miracles performed by the apostles...and that's just the short list!

If someone doesn't want to believe, they're not going to. I doubt a bright light in the sky with an audible voice is going to convince anyone. Miracles have already been provided and recorded. They are dismissed as hogwash and mythology for the weak-minded.

Yeah, all true. Some people, even if God "showed Himself" would still not serve Him unfortunately.


Also, to those who are looking for a more recent "Divine intervention". I recall seeing something on the History channel I believe, about the formation of the USA. The British burning Washington DC and an "inexplicable storm" forcing the British troops to retreat. I sat there and thought, "Wow, God was there with us from the beginning." (just for later for us to turn our backs on Him )

Since when has weather been inexplicable? And why did god intervene there and not in darfur, or rwanda, or kosovo, or armenia, or the nazi death camps? He intervened in a poltiical squabble but not in genocide? What sort of person is this?
It's like the amputee question. Jay claims his MS - a supposedly incurable disease - was cured by god. Yet no amputee has ever had their limb regrown by god. Why is this?

[Bertros Bertros]

Question: If God was visible for all to see, maybe an immense unbearable light in the sky with His voice audibly heard by all... would you then worship Him?

Uh Jay,

A worldwide flood, a talking donkey, wet fleece/dry fleece for Gideon, the sun standing still for Joshua, 10 plagues against Egypt, parting of the Red Sea, Assyrian army being wiped out by an angel, Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed, Daniel in the lion's den, Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego being saved from the fiery furnce, Elijah calling down fire from heaven against the prophets of Baal, Samson killing a lion with his bare hands, fiery cloud leading Israel, bronze snake replica curing all who look upon it, manna & quail, Jericho tumbling down, a giant hand writing on the wall for the entire Chaldean court to see, the virgin birth of Christ, the miracles Jesus performed on earth, the resurrection of Christ, the ascension of Christ to heaven in front of witnesses, the miracles performed by the apostles...and that's just the short list!

If someone doesn't want to believe, they're not going to. I doubt a bright light in the sky with an audible voice is going to convince anyone. Miracles have already been provided and recorded. They are dismissed as hogwash and mythology for the weak-minded.

Yeah, all true. Some people, even if God "showed Himself" would still not serve Him unfortunately.


Also, to those who are looking for a more recent "Divine intervention". I recall seeing something on the History channel I believe, about the formation of the USA. The British burning Washington DC and an "inexplicable storm" forcing the British troops to retreat. I sat there and thought, "Wow, God was there with us from the beginning." (just for later for us to turn our backs on Him )

Jay your absolutely right about this, God obviously uses the weather against the British all the time. Inexplicable rain has stopped the final days play at Lords which is likely to make a draw of a match we otherwise had a reasonable chance of winning...

[Dancing Mustard]

Stupid God, discriminating against us all the time... I'm going to go be a Buddhist to spite him.

[Anarchy Ninja]

Peace and love is all we need!