Validity of the Bible

by **jay_a2j** on Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:14 pm

vtmarik wrote:Knowledge is also information based on experiences and from deduction. For example, you may know that pasta tastes good, but that isn't a fact. It's an opinion.

Well thats not knowledge in my book. You can't KNOW pasta tastes good because its an opinion. You can have knowledge that snow is cold yet have never touched it. You can take Drivers Ed and have knowledge of driving a car. But you can never know that FORD sucks...that is an OPINION.

by **vtmarik** on Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:16 pm

jay_a2j wrote:Well thats not knowledge in my book. You can't KNOW pasta tastes good because its an opinion. You can have knowledge that snow is cold yet have never touched it. You can take Drivers Ed and have knowledge of driving a car. But you can never know that FORD sucks...that is an OPINION.

Much like we don't know about the origin of the angels or whether or not they had free will.

"I heard from somebody" isn't evidence.

by **jay_a2j** on Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:33 pm

vtmarik wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Well thats not knowledge in my book. You can't KNOW pasta tastes good because its an opinion. You can have knowledge that snow is cold yet have never touched it. You can take Drivers Ed and have knowledge of driving a car. But you can never know that FORD sucks...that is an OPINION.

Much like we don't know about the origin of the angels or whether or not they had free will.

"I heard from somebody" isn't evidence.

We can know the origin of angels.(God tells us) I agree about their free will up to the point Lucifer rebelled. (cause then its obvious that he had free will)

by **morph** on Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:00 pm

was there a passage Jay, somewhere that god may have said to the angels to go to earth and learn from what they can.... and then bring back what they have learned and tell god, because if so, that could be were lucifer as a angel started to question god and his plan and then so did the other angels.. and boom there is the big rebellion... that wouldnt really take free will >.>

by **vtmarik** on Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:12 pm

jay_a2j wrote:We can know the origin of angels.(God tells us) I agree about their free will up to the point Lucifer rebelled. (cause then its obvious that he had free will)

Chapter? Verse? You're inferring that the free will is "obvious," but with the Perfect Word of God you don't need inference. It should be spelled out right there in the text.

by **jay_a2j** on Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:11 pm

vtmarik wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:We can know the origin of angels.(God tells us) I agree about their free will up to the point Lucifer rebelled. (cause then its obvious that he had free will)

Chapter? Verse? You're inferring that the free will is "obvious," but with the Perfect Word of God you don't need inference. It should be spelled out right there in the text.

1.Angels were created by God:

Thou, Lord alone has made heaven, the heaven of heavens,
with all their host,(angels) the earth, and all things
that are therein, the seas and all that is therein, and
thou preservest them all! And the host of heaven worships
thee.(Nehem:9-6)

For by him were all things created that are in heaven, and
that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be
thrones, dominions, principalities, or powers, all things
were created by Him, and for Him.(Coloss:1:l6)

2. Method of origin

Angels were created by a special act of God,they did not evolve.

Praise ye him all his angels, praise ye him all his hosts(angels)
Let them praise the name of the Lord, for he commanded and they
were created. (Psalml48:2,5).
Their number was fixed at creation. They neither reproduce or die.
Jesus talking about the resurrection said: For in the resurrection
they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as
the angels of God in heaven. (Mathew22:30)
Neither can they die anymore: for they are equal unto the angels.

3. Time of origin.

Before the earth was,the angels were allready created
Where were thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
When the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:1,4,7)
Declare if thou has understanding.

4. Purpose of existence

"They were created to glorify Christ."

And again when he brought in the first begotten (Jesus)
into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship
him. (Hebrews:1:6)
Thou art worthy, O Lord to receive glory and honour, and power:
for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure thy are
and were created. (Revel4:11).

It is obvious at the time Lucifer rebells because WHY would God MAKE his own creation rebel? It was a choice Lucifer had... and he took it.

but with the Perfect Word of God you don't need inference. It should be spelled out right there in the text.

I didn't realize that you were such an expert of God, Gods Word, and what needs to be "spelled out" in it! :roll:

by **vtmarik** on Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:24 pm

Oh, I'm sorry. Did I overstep? I just thought that a document that purports to be the Word of God would have everything in it. Given that perfection can't give way to imperfection.

I never thought that we'd have to assume Lucifer's having free will when God could've told us and gotten it out of the way. How foolish of me to expect perfection from a perfect being. I can't help it if I notice things like the lack of scriptural backup for your claims about Lucifer's free will.

Jay_a2j wrote:It is obvious at the time Lucifer rebells because WHY would God MAKE his own creation rebel? It was a choice Lucifer had... and he took it.

That's your perception. Are you saying that God wouldn't ask his own creation to rebel under any circumstances? Are you saying God can't do what he wants?

by **Backglass** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:59 am

You are debating who is greater...Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. :lol:

Oh sorry...let me give you some actual written proof:

"And the great Claus came down through thouest chimney and speaketh" LO! I am the great and powerful CLAUSE! BEHOLD my gifts! and LO...they were amazed at the harvest before them, for he turned legos into bionicles. And they were sore afraid. For his power could turn PS1 games into PS3 games. They were shaking in their shoes, thus they spake "Please oh great and powerful Clause, give us a sign!!!". And he spoke thusly "Fear not children for I have given you barbie, and ken and all the children of their loins. Do not be afraid of my power for it is written by the great god "Mattel".

It must be true...for IT IS WRITTEN!!!!! I READ IT!!!!!!!

Surely you cannot ignore the great gospel of "Kringel, Chris 1 & 2"? :lol:

Sounds silly doesnt it. Thats because it ALL is. The "gospel" above is no less valid.

Wake up people. :roll:

by **morph** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:50 am

Backglass wrote:You are debating who is greater...Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.

Oh sorry...let me give you some actual written proof:

"And the great Claus came down through thouest chimney and speaketh" LO! I am the great and powerful CLAUSE! BEHOLD my gifts! and LO...they were amazed at the harvest before them, for he turned legos into bionicles. And they were sore afraid. For his power could turn PS1 games into PS3 games. They were shaking in their shoes, thus they spake "Please oh great and powerful Clause, give us a sign!!!". And he spoke thusly "Fear not children for I have given you barbie, and ken and all the children of their loins. Do not be afraid of my power for it is written by the great god "Mattel".

It must be true...for IT IS WRITTEN!!!!! I READ IT!!!!!!!

Surely you cannot ignore the great gospel of "Kringel, Chris 1 & 2"?

Sounds silly doesnt it. Thats because it ALL is. The "gospel" above is no less valid.

Wake up people.

actually there is... your thing had an author, you lol The Bible dosnt have a author, a name that said "o by the way im the person who heard gods voice and wrote this shit down" you wanna know why? its cuz people would have stoned the guy to death for bein crazy in all likely hood, or even stoned him for defying the roman empire and saying there is a higher power then the emporer...

see... even people with faith can be chicken shit... my question is... if he was so sure that what he heard was gods voice... why the hell didint he just step forward and say "ya i wrote this, this is gods voice, get the hell over it" and if he was killed he would have been instantly in heaven, or so i hope, because the one that writes down your words and gets killed for it.. honestly should go to your special lil play ground with all the fun shit..

by **MeDeFe** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:10 am

MeDeFe wrote:So... god knows things before they happen, for god to know things his opinion of what will happen has to be well-founded, we'll have to leave it at "he's god", since there's no other explanation and we're talking of human behaviour and complex actions and not of things like "I know this ball will fall if I drop it" which can be explained by basic laws of nature.

For his opinions to be knowledge they have to be true, that means they MUST happen, if they didn't it wouldn't be knowledge.

This isn't a case of "I know what will happen if Person X chooses option A and what will happen if he chooses option B". No, it's a case of "I know every action every person will take before they take it and I know what consequences these actions will have".

That doesn't leave any room for choosing. There are no "alternative paths", if there were god wouldn't be omniscient. But he's defined as such.

So you either have to rethink your definition of god or give up free will, which will it be?

Here's the post jay, and this time, don't get stuck on the word "opinion", I think I already sufficiently showed that your definition of knowledge is practically identical to the one I'm working with, but if you like you can go and translate "wahre, begründete Meinung" into english. "True, well-founded opinion" comes close, but it's always hard to translate things so they don't lose some part of their meaning.

I put the part you ignored in italics, this time please respond to that part, too. In my opinion it's the interesting one. Also note that I don't claim that god (provided he exists) controls human actions anywhere. The sole premiss of his omniscience is enough to make free will impossible.

by **jay_a2j** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:08 am

MeDeFe wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:So... god knows things before they happen, for god to know things his opinion of what will happen has to be well-founded, we'll have to leave it at "he's god", since there's no other explanation and we're talking of human behaviour and complex actions and not of things like "I know this ball will fall if I drop it" which can be explained by basic laws of nature.

For his opinions to be knowledge they have to be true, that means they MUST happen, if they didn't it wouldn't be knowledge.

This isn't a case of "I know what will happen if Person X chooses option A and what will happen if he chooses option B". No, it's a case of "I know every action every person will take before they take it and I know what consequences these actions will have".

That doesn't leave any room for choosing. There are no "alternative paths", if there were god wouldn't be omniscient. But he's defined as such.

So you either have to rethink your definition of god or give up free will, which will it be?

Here's the post jay, and this time, don't get stuck on the word "opinion", I think I already sufficiently showed that your definition of knowledge is practically identical to the one I'm working with, but if you like you can go and translate "wahre, begründete Meinung" into english. "True, well-founded opinion" comes close, but it's always hard to translate things so they don't lose some part of their meaning.

I put the part you ignored in italics, this time please respond to that part, too. In my opinion it's the interesting one. Also note that I don't claim that god (provided he exists) controls human actions anywhere. The sole premiss of his omniscience is enough to make free will impossible.

Oh,but I've responded to the words in italics in sooo many ways.... let me re-post them:

He KNOWS what will happen but does not MAKE what happens, happen! Lets say I knew 9/11 was going to happen on 9/10. That does not give me control over the terrorists who hijaked the planes! They still made their own choice to hijack the planes... I just knew it was comming. (this is an example: I am in no way saying that I knew 9/11 was going to happen. But God did.

AND

God knows what will happen in the future (He is all knowing). But He dosen't control what WE do. He can see the results of our actions before they happen. He knows what we will do before we do it. He does not control what we do.

ALSO

God KNOWS the future. Lets look at the Titanic for a second. Because it was moving at a high rate of speed it could not avoid the iceberg which caused the ship to sink. If the ship was going slower it might have avoided the iceberg and not sank. God saw what was going to happen. If the ship had reduced speed and avoided the iceberg it wouldn't have sank and God would have known this. On the contrary it was going at a high speed, hit the iceberg and sank.... God knew this. He knows what will happen even though we choose our own path. He knows the path we will choose.

God sees the future. He does not control the choices WE make but He knows what choices we WILL make. The choices are NOT PRE-ORDAINED! With each choice we have ALL paths availiable to us, A, B, C and D. God knows which choice we will choose before you choose it! Have you ever walked into a bank to make a deposit and then suddenly (without explanation) robbed the bank instead without wanting to do it? If so, than you can argue that we have no free will. But we do! How anyone can say otherwise does not make sense!

by **mightyal** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:27 am

Presumably god knew I was going to hell before he created me for that purpose alone. How can I choose god when he knows I'm doomed before he created Adam and Eve?
I believe you are using the term free-will in exactly the same way the communist states called themselves democratic.

by **jay_a2j** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:44 am

mightyal wrote:Presumably god knew I was going to hell before he created me for that purpose alone. How can I choose god when he knows I'm doomed before he created Adam and Eve?
I believe you are using the term free-will in exactly the same way the communist states called themselves democratic.

You are not doomed. You can still choose God. And if you do, God knew you would choose Him before you were even born. God knows the future, he does not create the future.

by **vtmarik** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:45 am

jay_a2j wrote:You are not doomed. You can still choose God. And if you do, God knew you would choose Him before you were even born. God knows the future, he does not create the future.

Assume for a moment that somebody has no intention of ever choosing God, would God know that? If He did, would He bother letting that man live?

by **Mirak** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:50 am

Jay

Please correct me if I am misrepresenting your views...

You believe:

God gave us free will so that we could decide for ourselves to believe in him, and love him as our "father" of our own accord, because he wants us to choose him and love him without any coersion.

He also knows everything we are ever going to do, say, think, write, see, and hear, etc..and has known since the begining of time

He knows every path we will choose and the outcome of every path yet does not interfere in anyway regardless of the results

----------------

Is that a fair overview?

by **jay_a2j** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:55 am

vtmarik wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:You are not doomed. You can still choose God. And if you do, God knew you would choose Him before you were even born. God knows the future, he does not create the future.

Assume for a moment that somebody has no intention of ever choosing God, would God know that? If He did, would He bother letting that man live?

God gives every person the oppertunity to accept Him or reject Him. (And those that don't have the chance, ie. abortions will spend eternity with God)

Yes, God would allow that man to live giving him the chance to choose him. (Even if he knows that he will not)

by **jay_a2j** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:59 am

Mirak wrote:Jay

Please correct me if I am misrepresenting your views...

You believe:

God gave us free will so that we could decide for ourselves to believe in him, and love him as our "father" of our own accord, because he wants us to choose him and love him without any coersion.

He also knows everything we are ever going to do, say, think, write, see, and hear, etc..and has known since the begining of time

He knows every path we will choose and the outcome of every path yet does not interfere in anyway regardless of the results

----------------

Is that a fair overview?

I agree with everything here except the last line. Any decision for Christ is an "intervention" with God. Its the point where one surrenders their life and will over to God.

by **vtmarik** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:04 am

jay_a2j wrote:I agree with everything here except the last line. Any decision for Christ is an "intervention" with God. Its the point where one surrenders their life and will over to God.

But what is the point of free will if we are supposed to surrender it to God? Certainly, if He is truly all-seeing, that He would know that we would surrender our free will to God in the end. Knowing that, He'd know that we didn't necessarily need free will in order to be happy, shiny beings.

More needless psychodrama.

by **jay_a2j** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:12 am

vtmarik wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:I agree with everything here except the last line. Any decision for Christ is an "intervention" with God. Its the point where one surrenders their life and will over to God.

But what is the point of free will if we are supposed to surrender it to God? Certainly, if He is truly all-seeing, that He would know that we would surrender our free will to God in the end. Knowing that, He'd know that we didn't necessarily need free will in order to be happy, shiny beings.

More needless psychodrama.

Doing Gods will is not automatic. If that were the case we would have millions of little Jesus' running around.(As He was the only perfect man to ever live) We are not surrendering our "free will" but our "will". Our will starts to line up with Gods will.

by **vtmarik** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:17 am

jay_a2j wrote:Doing Gods will is not automatic. If that were the case we would have millions of little Jesus' running around.(As He was the only perfect man to ever live) We are not surrendering our "free will" but our "will". Our will starts to line up with Gods will.

That's what I'm saying, if you'd step out of the box for a moment. When our will becomes in-line with God's will, we are no longer living our own lives but instead live to serve God. When you do God's will and not your own, you have given up your free will to do God's bidding.

I don't think that God would appreciate our giving away of free will like that. He is the one who gave it to us, after all.

And I believe that the appropriate plural form of 'Jesus' would be 'Jesii.'

by **jay_a2j** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:01 am

vtmarik wrote: When our will becomes in-line with God's will, we are no longer living our own lives but instead live to serve God.

BINGO! The reason we were created... to serve God! THIS is in fact our purpose in life! Not making lots of money! Not owning 6 houses and 3 yatchs! Not falling in love with the woman of our dreams! Not about getting 3 PhD's a Master's and an Associates. Not about becoming President. ITS ABOUT, KNOWING YOUR CREATOR AND SERVING HIM!!!!!! Nothing else outside of this MATTERS! Scripture calls it "chasing the wind"... to go after things in this world that WILL PASS AWAY!

Nice job vtmarik, you hit the nail on the head!

by **vtmarik** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:45 am

jay_a2j wrote:BINGO! The reason we were created... to serve God! THIS is in fact our purpose in life! Not making lots of money! Not owning 6 houses and 3 yatchs! Not falling in love with the woman of our dreams! Not about getting 3 PhD's a Master's and an Associates. Not about becoming President. ITS ABOUT, KNOWING YOUR CREATOR AND SERVING HIM!!!!!! Nothing else outside of this MATTERS! Scripture calls it "chasing the wind"... to go after things in this world that WILL PASS AWAY!

Nice job vtmarik, you hit the nail on the head!

Not answering the great questions, not achieving enlightenment, not becoming spiritually or emotionally complete. Gotcha.
The whole point is to serve God, die, and then be in Heaven. Not a very ambitious life-plan, nor a very sensible one. No wonder suicide is a sin, if it weren't then everyone would be offing themselves just to get to Heaven faster.

If the whole point is to surrender ourselves and serve god, why give us free will? It seems like an unnecessary obstacle, since some will not surrender their lives to serve God. If that is why we are here, then we don't need free will.

And also, if we are supposed to serve God as our end-all purpose, why were the angels created? Redundancy isn't a virtue.

If you consider life to be the pursuit of being dead and in heaven, then I'm really sorry that you feel that way.

by **jay_a2j** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:04 am

vtmarik wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:BINGO! The reason we were created... to serve God! THIS is in fact our purpose in life! Not making lots of money! Not owning 6 houses and 3 yatchs! Not falling in love with the woman of our dreams! Not about getting 3 PhD's a Master's and an Associates. Not about becoming President. ITS ABOUT, KNOWING YOUR CREATOR AND SERVING HIM!!!!!! Nothing else outside of this MATTERS! Scripture calls it "chasing the wind"... to go after things in this world that WILL PASS AWAY!

Nice job vtmarik, you hit the nail on the head!

Not answering the great questions, not achieving enlightenment, not becoming spiritually or emotionally complete. Gotcha.
The whole point is to serve God, die, and then be in Heaven. Not a very ambitious life-plan, nor a very sensible one. No wonder suicide is a sin, if it weren't then everyone would be offing themselves just to get to Heaven faster.

If the whole point is to surrender ourselves and serve god, why give us free will? It seems like an unnecessary obstacle, since some will not surrender their lives to serve God. If that is why we are here, then we don't need free will.

And also, if we are supposed to serve God as our end-all purpose, why were the angels created? Redundancy isn't a virtue.

If you consider life to be the pursuit of being dead and in heaven, then I'm really sorry that you feel that way.

God gives us free will so WE can choose to serve Him or not! He wants to be loved because WE want to love him! Not because we have no other choice (existing without free-will)! Those who reject God will spend eternity apart from Him, by their own choosing.

God created angels for the same purpose .... in spite of your "Redundancy isn't a virtue"... who, may I ask, gave you the authority to question Gods plan? Or to claim something, "redundant"?

The pursuit of life is to serve God. We are either born twice and die once or born once and die twice. Life is a gift from God. We may be physically alive, but we are spiritually dead until we accept Christ.

by **MeDeFe** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:19 am

I won't let you off the hook that easily jay, since you are prepared to write 6 posts saying that you'd happily give up free will to obey interpretations of some ancient writings you should be able to write at least ONE post explaining what's so wrong with my reasoning that an omniscient god is not compatible with free will, you were so happy you could post the same things again that bear no relevance to the problem I gave you to ponder that you missed a part of my last post that's also important, I thought I should give you a hint so you see where the problem with omniscience and free will lies, but you must have missed it.

Here's the quote.

MeDeFe wrote:Also note that I don't claim that god (provided he exists) controls human actions anywhere. The sole premiss of his omniscience is enough to make free will impossible.

Now please go back and reread my reasoning. It's really quite simple to understand. Well... at least it should be.

by **jay_a2j** on Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:34 am

MeDeFe wrote:I won't let you off the hook that easily jay, since you are prepared to write 6 posts saying that you'd happily give up free will to obey interpretations of some ancient writings you should be able to write at least ONE post explaining what's so wrong with my reasoning that an omniscient god is not compatible with free will, you were so happy you could post the same things again that bear no relevance to the problem I gave you to ponder that you missed a part of my last post that's also important, I thought I should give you a hint so you see where the problem with omniscience and free will lies, but you must have missed it.

Here's the quote.

MeDeFe wrote:Also note that I don't claim that god (provided he exists) controls human actions anywhere. The sole premiss of his omniscience is enough to make free will impossible.

Now please go back and reread my reasoning. It's really quite simple to understand. Well... at least it should be.

Apparently you don't understand that Gods omniscience does not contradict free-will. You stated "path A and B". God knows you will choose "path A" but YOU CHOOSE IT!

I guess this is hard for you to grasp. Do not be dismayed, you are not alone.

Validity of the Bible

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