Marxists Thread

[foolish_yeti]

Uh huh. That wont happen. If you have all of the money and own a large company and everyone else is poor, you wont stay in buisiness for long. What Cuba did was basically steal from his people.

Please look into the wealth distribution (as everyone keeps referring to) in your country. Off the top of my head it's something like the top 20% of the population has 80% of the wealth.

[Neutrino]

Uh huh. That wont happen. If you have all of the money and own a large company and everyone else is poor, you wont stay in buisiness for long. What Cuba did was basically steal from his people.

Guh? Do you actually live in America? Have you become poor-blind, that is, unable to see all the poor people. The CEO might be rich, but the people working to manufacture the products that they sell are most likelty to be working for minimum wage.

CEO = Rich.

Majority of bottom rung workers: Poor

[Anarchy Ninja]

well from what ive seen recently america seems to only excell at killing other people

[got tonkaed]

Again i wouldnt disagree with you if we were using some of those things for making the world a better place. We have the technological capabilities to cure things like aids and different types of cancer. But because doing those things would affect the profits of the phramacutical industry they simply are not done.

We have the technology to do more with alternative fuels. Admittedly there is some progress here, but only because the profit motive has been appealed to. If you dont see the problem of interest of companies like exxon oil being in charge of much of our new alternative fuel sources then you are being slightly naive.

IF we were using our money to make the world a better place, we would not have a larger military budget than the rest of the developed world combined, making the world a better place simply doesnt mean removing everyone who doenst think like you.

[everywhere116]

Uh huh. That wont happen. If you have all of the money and own a large company and everyone else is poor, you wont stay in buisiness for long. What Cuba did was basically steal from his people.

Guh? Do you actually live in America? Have you become poor-blind, that is, unable to see all the poor people. The CEO might be rich, but the people working to manufacture the products that they sell are most likelty to be working for minimum wage.

CEO = Rich.

Majority of bottom rung workers: Poor

Yeah, most people in the workforce are middle class.

[spurgistan]

Everyone is human, and everyone makes mistakes. Finding a flaw in you doesnt discredit anything, but finding a flaw in how you conduct things related to this arguement does. In the only point in your post other than saying no one is perferct, you say that capitalism exploits people. What about Cuba? USSR? North Korea? Do you have any idea how rich thier leaders were while thier people were dirt poor? Under Communism?[/quote]

Yes, people in the USSR, Cuba, China, (Hey! You forgot China!) and NK tend to live disapointing lives, because they live in police states. Whereas, if you look at socialist governments that respect human rights and civil liberties, (Northern Europe, for example), resources are equitably spread through the population, and while the rich may live less glamorous lives, the vast majority of the populatin lives a better life.

[Neutrino]

No they are trying to participate in the stock market, but they simply dont have access to the amount of capital necesary to matter within the stock market system, that should be fairly self evident.


and id continue to argue that no capitalism is not working, Such a small percentage owning such a large percentage of the worlds wealth is just not a system that works.

A nation that finds the latest technological advances for the world and making it a better place. Yeah, not working.

But its not sustainable! Salinity, Erosion, Global Warming. All these things are caused by the over-exploitation of resources by Capitalists.

[everywhere116]

well from what ive seen recently america seems to only excell at killing other people

So you havent noticed our superb medicine?

[got tonkaed]

spurgistan brings up some good points....

To help with some of the global income numbers...from a un study on global income distribution, the top 15 percent of the world owns 62 percent of the worlds wealth while the bottom 85 percent owns about 38 percent. This is not a system that works. The bottom ten percent doesnt own a single percent and the top percent owns 12.

[everywhere116]

No they are trying to participate in the stock market, but they simply dont have access to the amount of capital necesary to matter within the stock market system, that should be fairly self evident.


and id continue to argue that no capitalism is not working, Such a small percentage owning such a large percentage of the worlds wealth is just not a system that works.

A nation that finds the latest technological advances for the world and making it a better place. Yeah, not working.

But its not sustainable! Salinity, Erosion, Global Warming. All these things are caused by the over-exploitation of resources by Capitalists.

All those things you named are debatable. Infact, you know Al Gore, the same Al Gore who is getting rich off of the global warming scare?

[spurgistan]

To add to that... the fact that you don't hear about police states that follow capitalism isn't becuae they don't exist (because they do, and many of them are criminals on the level of Stalin and Pol Pot) but because the are seen as defending the US and capitalism. Take Pinochet, died last year. Did you hear ANYTHING about what that monster did to his country? But no, because he kept the Allende government out, and they were socialist, so they're the enemy.

[everywhere116]

spurgistan brings up some good points....

To help with some of the global income numbers...from a un study on global income distribution, the top 15 percent of the world owns 62 percent of the worlds wealth while the bottom 85 percent owns about 38 percent. This is not a system that works. The bottom ten percent doesnt own a single percent and the top percent owns 12.

If those are the numbers your math skills are horrible.

[Neutrino]

Alright, I am not the most savvy person in the world, but even when I was in high school making minimum wage I was able to save up enough $$$ to invest in a couple of mutual funds. As long as I put a little bit of my wages aside and invested them I was able to do just fine.

That little bit of money has now grown. Almost anybody can do it. It's really not that hard. There are mutual funds that only require $500 to start. An example of this is the Oakmark Equity & Income Fund (OAKBX). You can add $100 per month after that until you reach $1,000.

If people refuse to participate I think it is because of a lack of knowlege or a refusal to admit that investing could work. Of course, since most of you here are Marxists I don't think you would invest because you believe that companies are automatically exploiting the worker force.

Exactly 'lack of knowledge'. If they are in a position where a minimum wage job helps them and their family significantly, then they are unlikely to have had proper education.

You can support 2, maybe 3 people on a minimum wage salary. If a family exceeds this, then the children are pressured to get a job early. This means that they will probably have to drop out of school if they have more than 1 and they will never learn about this fantastic 'investment'

[foolish_yeti]

All those things you named are debatable. Infact, you know Al Gore, the same Al Gore who is getting rich off of the global warming scare?

Please, please, please try to debate topsoil degradation and erosion.

[everywhere116]

To add to that... the fact that you don't hear about police states that follow capitalism isn't becuae they don't exist (because they do, and many of them are criminals on the level of Stalin and Pol Pot) but because the are seen as defending the US and capitalism. Take Pinochet, died last year. Did you hear ANYTHING about what that monster did to his country? But no, because he kept the Allende government out, and they were socialist, so they're the enemy.

Point? you didnt name a capitalist country. You said it was socialist.

[got tonkaed]

everywhere....those are the numbers off the study they all add up. If youd like a link to them
http://www.wider.unu.edu/research/research.htm

[spurgistan]

spurgistan brings up some good points....

To help with some of the global income numbers...from a un study on global income distribution, the top 15 percent of the world owns 62 percent of the worlds wealth while the bottom 85 percent owns about 38 percent. This is not a system that works. The bottom ten percent doesnt own a single percent and the top percent owns 12.

If those are the numbers your math skills are horrible.

No, the numbers are correct. His math is right. How can you debate that without even throwing up some contrived Fox News numbers?

[beezer]

you say that capitalism exploits people. What about Cuba? USSR? North Korea? Do you have any idea how rich thier leaders were while thier people were dirt poor? Under Communism?

That's a good point, but what I hear from Communists or Marxists everytime you bring up that point is that "Well, Russia didn't really practice true communism. Well, Cuba didn't really practice true marxism as it was intended". How many more times do countries have to try and fail at communism or marxism in order to show that it doesn't work, no matter what the country or leader?

When I talked to this guy from Michigan once about how communist states persecute their people (we were talking specifically about Daniel Ortega and the Sandinistas) he simply said, "mistakes were made". I was thinking to myself, "why isn't this guy morally outraged at the torture that was conducted against the Nicaraguan people?" He just simply chalked it up as "mistakes were made".

[got tonkaed]

the relative value of minimum wage has gone down and you would not be able to invest in a mutual fund and support a family at the same time, it just would most likely not be possible.

[spurgistan]

To add to that... the fact that you don't hear about police states that follow capitalism isn't becuae they don't exist (because they do, and many of them are criminals on the level of Stalin and Pol Pot) but because the are seen as defending the US and capitalism. Take Pinochet, died last year. Did you hear ANYTHING about what that monster did to his country? But no, because he kept the Allende government out, and they were socialist, so they're the enemy.

Point? you didnt name a capitalist country. You said it was socialist.

OK, gawsh, Pinochet was the US-installed leader of Chile. South America, if you don't think it exists. Near Argentina. Jeez, love how we need to explain everything on our own thread...

[foolish_yeti]

If those are the numbers your math skills are horrible.

How does reading a global study make his math skills horrible? In fact the most recent UN study (2006) shows that things have gotten even worse. Something like the top 1% of the population owning 40% of the wealth. The top 10% owning 85%.

[got tonkaed]

beezer i would agree with you, no economic system without a human face can ever work. I really would not mind capitalism so much if there was more of an effort to be humanitarian. I mean i dont like a lot of the things about the system, but i really am a bit more of a realist than im coming off as in this thread. The fact of the matter is a communist system could be an alternative to the system we have know, which is exploiting a whole lot of people, and the fact that as an alternative communism, or even a more practical socialism is contiually shot down because people dont question some of the simple assumptiosn of capitalism is somewaht disappointing.

[everywhere116]

spurgistan brings up some good points....

To help with some of the global income numbers...from a un study on global income distribution, the top 15 percent of the world owns 62 percent of the worlds wealth while the bottom 85 percent owns about 38 percent. This is not a system that works. The bottom ten percent doesnt own a single percent and the top percent owns 12.

If those are the numbers your math skills are horrible.

No, the numbers are correct. His math is right. How can you debate that without even throwing up some contrived Fox News numbers?

Uh hu. If the top 15 percent own 62 percent of the wealth, divide both sides by 15 to get 1 percent of the population owns 4 percent of the wealth. Divide 85 by around 8 to get about 10 percent owning 38 divided by about 8 gives me 5. My math isnt skrewed up. And that link didnt lead me anyhwhere about global wealth distribution.

[cowshrptrn]

I think we can all agree that a Utopian society exists only in theory,

Most governments lie somewhere on the libertarian - police state continuum, i think we've started to stray economically into something thats a bit too libertarian, we're not making sure people's greed doesn't get the better of them. If people will trample over old ladies to get a Tickle Me Elmo, what would they do for a life of opulence?

We need to go a bit further towards police state since we've allowed companies to run amok destroying the environment and taking advantage of the poor, we need to reign in some of their tendencies, but we have to be careful to not stifle them to the point where the state is juggling the entire economy and the whole thing falls apart. We need socialism, not Marxism.

[beezer]

the relative value of minimum wage has gone down and you would not be able to invest in a mutual fund and support a family at the same time, it just would most likely not be possible.

All I can say to that is I know a lot of people who have done it, and others who are doing it now. One guy I know works at Taco Bueno and just makes minimum wage. He likes to use morningstar.com to search for mutual funds that are $500 - $1000.