OLYMPIC FLAME PROTESTS

[heavycola]

BRILLIANT.

Apparently the blue tracksuit-clad Chinese gusy around teh torch in london and paris are special forces, which is creepy as hell, unacceptable and an insight into current Chinese political mores. Who let these people into my city to fight with protesters and tell Konnie Hug to 'run, stop, hold you arm higher'? The Aussies have said they are not allowed to run with teh torch in canberra, and good for them.

SHAME ON CHINA.

[PLAYER57832]

I am old enough to remember when the US boycotted the Soviet Olympics. What was accomplished?

Moscow continued as it had, but boycotted the US Olympics in return. Carter lost the presidency and many attribute this a major reason.

I also vaguely remember Munich. What was accomplished there? Fine athletes lost their lives. Litttle more

CONTRAST THIS with Jesse standing tall when HILTER refused to shake his hand (Hitler was then the leader, the runner, who was black had won the marathon). Guess who made the better showing .. .it surely was not HItler.

The Olympics should be a place where ATHLETES can come together OUTSIDE of politics. Sad that too many people seem to forget this.

This is not about Tibet, this is about the Olympics. Do the Tibetans have a legitimate and serious complaint .. personally, I say absolutely "yes", but the Olympics should be beyond that.

Further, from a practical sense, the Olymipics will provide and unprecidented opportunity for real people around the world to communicate with, contact real Chinese people. REAL people, not politicians. THAT is where true communication happens.


The impact of all this protest, within China? To confirm their view that we outsiders fail to understand China and just want to tell China what to do. They are not hearing the same news we do. The only way they will is by further contact with those from outside China.

[Aidan Kerr]

ha ha the tibet supporters climbed the golden gate bridge and put two banners on it this is getting better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjUFKUnAs-k


the IOC are meeting on friday to discuss if they should scrap the torch relay

[heavycola]

Player, I disagree fundamentally. The anti-protest voices here in London have been saying the same thing - 'the olympics are not about politics'.

Nonsense. China was given the games partly on the understanding they would improve opnness and human rights in their country. Of course they are politicised.
And now China is cracking down on dissenters and on Tibet BECAUSE of the increased scrutiny the games will bring. IT'S POLITICAL. Not to mention shamelessly commercial - Samsung had taken over Trafalgar Square on Sunday - but that's another thread...

I for one woud not wish the games to be abandoned, for the same reason as you: because the athletes and competitors do not deserve that. A gold-medal winner in Beijing will be an Olympic gold medallist, not a Beijing Olympic gold medallist. But China's behaviour has been appalling. That's what the protests are about. Chinese forces killing tibetans, suppressing their language, culture, freedom of speech... Google Hu Jia. Arrested, wife and child under house arrest, because he dared to feed information about Chinese humna rights abuses to the outside world. How very Olympian of his government.

The games will and should go ahead, but all this bullshit about the Olympics not being political is just daft. This is a golden chance for the world to protest China's human rights abuses, which have recently, in part, been commited because of the forthcoming games. If the Olympics are all about harmony, peace and spirit, then who would we be if we ignored the host country's complete rejection of those ideals? Massive hypocrites, is who.

[PLAYER57832]

Player, I disagree fundamentally. The anti-protest voices here in London have been saying the same thing - 'the olympics are not about politics'.

Nonsense. China was given the games partly on the understanding they would improve opnness and human rights in their country. Of course they are politicised.
And now China is cracking down on dissenters and on Tibet BECAUSE of the increased scrutiny the games will bring. IT'S POLITICAL. Not to mention shamelessly commercial - Samsung had taken over Trafalgar Square on Sunday - but that's another thread...

I for one woud not wish the games to be abandoned, for the same reason as you: because the athletes and competitors do not deserve that. A gold-medal winner in Beijing will be an Olympic gold medallist, not a Beijing Olympic gold medallist. But China's behaviour has been appalling. That's what the protests are about. Chinese forces killing tibetans, suppressing their language, culture, freedom of speech... Google Hu Jia. Arrested, wife and child under house arrest, because he dared to feed information about Chinese humna rights abuses to the outside world. How very Olympian of his government.

The games will and should go ahead, but all this bullshit about the Olympics not being political is just daft. This is a golden chance for the world to protest China's human rights abuses, which have recently, in part, been commited because of the forthcoming games. If the Olympics are all about harmony, peace and spirit, then who would we be if we ignored the host country's complete rejection of those ideals? Massive hypocrites, is who.

I said the Olympics SHOULD be above politics ... and that those who use it to promote their individual politics do far more harm than good.

As for the Olympic committee ... Of course, countries compete, but that is more like business competition than ideology competition. I am not naive, but the deciding factor was money, not what the Olympic committee thought or thinks about Tibet, the Weagers (another minority) or China's policies on human rights in general. They DO worry about safety and the ability of the country to provide what is needed on all fronts, but though political views are generally mentioned, they are not deciders.

I had the opportunity to actually talk with some athletes from Romania ... the one communist block country that did not participate in the boycott. You had to wait until the coach was not around. When the coach was around, they would not respond, would just stare ahead and ignore any comments, or (rarely) make a curt nod and then get back to what they were doing.

A few years later things changed indeed there... and have changed irrevocably in a way the old Soviet has not.

Due to the Olympics? Of course not, but I do think the communication we had .. not just I, but everyone who had the chance, perhaps added a very small "straw" to an already heavily loaded "camel's back".

[Aidan Kerr]

no they have always been about politics.

hitler invented the torch relay.

The us boycotted the moscow 1980 games.

the soviet union boycotted the LA games 1984.

[heavycola]

I said the Olympics SHOULD be above politics ...
and that those who use it to promote their individual politics do far
more harm than good.

As for the Olympic committee ... Of
course, countries compete, but that is more like business competition
than ideology competition. I am not naive, but the deciding factor was
money, not what the Olympic committee thought or thinks about Tibet,
the Weagers (another minority) or China's policies on human rights in
general. They DO worry about safety and the ability of the country to
provide what is needed on all fronts, but though political views are
generally mentioned, they are not deciders.

I had the
opportunity to actually talk with some athletes from Romania ... the
one communist block country that did not participate in the boycott.
You had to wait until the coach was not around. When the coach was
around, they would not respond, would just stare ahead and ignore any
comments, or (rarely) make a curt nod and then get back to what they
were doing.

A few years later things changed indeed there... and have changed irrevocably in a way the old Soviet has not.

Due to the Olympics? Of course not, but I do think the communication we had
.. not just I, but everyone who had the chance, perhaps added a very
small "straw" to an already heavily loaded "camel's back".

This has always been about communication. How do I, or anyone else, communicate their opinion about the atrocities and repression being carried out by the Chinese government to that same government? By protesting their torch relay. How can we try to communicate our opposition to the the millions of Chinese citizens who might otherwise be kept in the dark by their heavily state-controlled media, and our support to those being repressed? By making the protests, rather than the relay, the main story. It succeeded, too.

A boycott by the athletes would be unfair, pointless, and politically counterproductive.
A demonstration against Chinese brutality and oppressions by thousands of citizens worldwide, however, is the only opportunity we have to get our message across, and we have seized it.

Bring it on, San Francisco.

[PLAYER57832]

[quote

This has always been about communication. How do I, or anyone else, communicate their opinion about the atrocities and repression being carried out by the Chinese government to that same government? By protesting their torch relay. How can we try to communicate our opposition to the the millions of Chinese citizens who might otherwise be kept in the dark by their heavily state-controlled media, and our support to those being repressed? By making the protests, rather than the relay, the main story. It succeeded, too.

A boycott by the athletes would be unfair, pointless, and politically counterproductive.
A demonstration against Chinese brutality and oppressions by thousands of citizens worldwide, however, is the only opportunity we have to get our message across, and we have seized it.

Bring it on, San Francisco.

How many times have you REALLY changed your views on anything important because you saw a few plackards. How many times have you changed your mind because you had a face to face (or online) discussion with another individual ... more often a friend?

THAT is my point. Plackards and banners are about making the ones who put them up feel good. REAL change is more often accomplished behind closed doors.

FURTHER, if you know much about Chinese culture (as you should, since you have a strong opinion on their actions), then you realize that this is even more true in China than within the west.

[Aidan Kerr]

a few placards more like millions mate.

[PLAYER57832]

How do I, or anyone else, communicate their opinion about the atrocities and repression being carried out by the Chinese government to that same government? .

OR, more to the point:
By meeting and talking to folks from China... by listeningto them first and trying to understan THEIR point of view and only THEN offering criticism.... By supporting those WITHIN China who are taking on this battle and following THEIR guidance and suggestions. ....

If a Chinese native asked me to make and send a banner, I might, possibly consider it. But these folks on the Golden Gate Bridge .. just plain lack sense.

And, by the way, there is a very good chance that I actually do KNOW some of those folks! So I am not speaking just hypothetically!

[PLAYER57832]

a few placards more like millions mate.

It matters not how many, it matters who sees them and their impact. Folks in China generally don't see them. For every one you MIGHT actually educate, you disgust hundred more ... hundreds who already sympathize with the cause of Tibet (AND other Chinese minorities).. but who want REAL change, not showmanship.

[Aidan Kerr]

to be honest you talk shite.

you use a lot of words for no reason i still dont get your actuall point

put them in bullet points

[PLAYER57832]

Face to face talk, among friends and acquantances changes minds, not glimpses of banners.

[heavycola]

How
many times have you REALLY changed your views on anything important
because you saw a few plackards. How many times have you changed your
mind because you had a face to face (or online) discussion with another
individual ... more often a friend?

How many times have you been alerted to the depth and scope of feeling about a particular issue by the scale of a demonstration? How many people around the world will those pictures reach? How many non-English speakers can people reach through, er, chatrooms?

THAT is my point. Plackards and banners are about making the ones who put them up feel good. REAL change is more often accomplished behind closed doors.

Wow, a blanket patronisation. Most of the wavers around me were waving Tibetan flags, an item it is forbidden to own in Tibet itself. But yeah, good point - all those who demonstrated must be selfish, inward-looking ignoramuses. Better for them all to sit at home and start looking for a Chinese state official penfriend online.

FURTHER,
if you know much about Chinese culture (as you should, since you have a
strong opinion on their actions), then you realize that this is even
more true in China than within the west.

Cultural relativism has its place, but this isn't it. The right to protest, freedom of religion, freedom from torutre, state brutality and murder - these are universal human values, IMO. Ares the imprisonment of dissenters, the placing of children under house arrest and the murdering of protesters Chinese cultural quirks?
Er....
no.

[PLAYER57832]

How
many times have you REALLY changed your views on anything important
because you saw a few plackards. How many times have you changed your
mind because you had a face to face (or online) discussion with another
individual ... more often a friend?

How many times have you been alerted to the depth and scope of feeling about a particular issue by the scale of a demonstration? How many people around the world will those pictures reach? How many non-English speakers can people reach through, er, chatrooms?

NEVER. ....

And your reference to Blair is incorrect, protests HAVE had an impact on him.

THAT is my point. Plackards and banners are about making the ones who put them up feel good. REAL change is more often accomplished behind closed doors.

Wow, a blanket patronisation. Most of the wavers around me were waving Tibetan flags, an item it is forbidden to own in Tibet itself. But yeah, good point - all those who demonstrated must be selfish, inward-looking ignoramuses. Better for them all to sit at home and start looking for a Chinese state official penfriend online.

I don't dispute your intent or integrity, only your effectiveness. People in China are seeing images of protestors taking the torch from a woman in a wheel chair -- hooligans destroying a proud woman's dream .. Do you REALLY think that was the way to convince folks your cause is just?

if you know much about Chinese culture (as you should, since you have a
strong opinion on their actions), then you realize that this is even
more true in China than within the west.

Cultural relativism has its place, but this isn't it. The right to protest, freedom of religion, freedom from torutre, state brutality and murder - these are universal human values, IMO. Ares the imprisonment of dissenters, the placing of children under house arrest and the murdering of protesters Chinese cultural quirks?
Er....
no.[/quote

]

This isn't relativism. I am not justifying the Chinese position. I am saying that you have to look at things from the Chinese perspective if you wish to change Chinese minds. Really, it holds true for most people. You may fight like cats and dogs with your siblings, but let someone else criticize them and chances are you will leap to their defense.




Me? My job right now is to ensure that my 2 sons are raised to look beyond our small town. That is the greatest job of any person.