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Religions : do they preach peace and tolerance

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Terrorist Religion, or one of Peace and Tolerance?

 
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Postby got tonkaed on Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:20 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:hmmm. You know a lot more about your own country of course, and make intelligent points. Yet, i dont see XPianity as incompatible with reasoned m-e policy. I think oil and commercialanity (since we're making tech vocab up) would be more dangerous than XPanity


America, I reckon, ought to find a reference point for itself, culturally and religiously : Christianity. Would you oppose that completely (I as your opinion as an average american) or do you think this could reconnec America with is roots and be positive.


well i dont want to say that xianity cant be a part of m-e policy. Clearly that is probably too aggressive of a statement. However, since the middle east is an area that has some very important significance for xianty, and to a degree is not a christian area, i think there are some problematic issues. Now of course this is limited to the extent that i specifically refer to conservative christian motivations, which arent every motivation by any sense. But if conservatism continues to be more vocal, its worth mentioning more often i feel.

I dont know if there can be a perfect rallying point for a nation today that can be found in religion. Theres so much difference in religious interpretation, even if we discount multiplicty of religion, to really find a common ground. If i could hve things my way, if there was such a centering to occur, id rather just take good moral precepts out of a number of different religions, but this is no more helpful than picking a single religion, because whats a good precept?

Lastly, id be careful in calling me an average american lol. Im not a christian, which nominally makes me different than a large percentage of the country, or at least how they identify themselves to be.
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Postby BlackIrish on Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:30 pm

None of the above are naturally terrorist religions, because these religions are no longer isolated and are aware of one another, they tend to be so.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:32 pm

Your first point made me laugh. In Europe our dhimmi politicians would be stoned for mentioning XPty and m-e policy in a same phrase :lol: :lol:

:idea: :D ahhhh how does one get a US passport :?: :lol:

i meant no insult by calling you average american :wink:
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:34 pm

BlackIrish wrote:None of the above are naturally terrorist religions, because these religions are no longer isolated and are aware of one another, they tend to be so.


None were ever isolated! XPianity was born in the centre of Jewish culture (Jewish priests crucified Jesus, even! (im not saying thats grounds for anti-Sionism...)), Islam, idem. mecca was a religiousmelting pot
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Postby got tonkaed on Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:34 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:Your first point made me laugh. In Europe our dhimmi politicians would be stoned for mentioning XPty and m-e policy in a same phrase :lol: :lol:

:idea: :D ahhhh how does one get a US passport :?: :lol:

i meant no insult by calling you average american :wink:


lol no offense taken....

i agree, its completly different world across the pond in regards to religion in society. I guess there are pluses and minuses for having things each way....i just wonder at times if we waste a lot of creative energy trying to find spots for religion to fit into politics.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:38 pm

Well,it depends. to me, religion is such a great part of our culture that I cant see how we can ignore it. In your country, less so. I m not sure...america is culturally XPian, ye still, founded on secular 9more or less) principles
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Postby daddy1gringo on Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:29 pm

got tonkaed wrote:well i think we also run into the issue of doctrine vs praxis. I dont know how much you have read of the Quran, i must admit i have read much less than i have out of the bible, but it seems that you can take as much as youd like out of that texts as you could out of the bible to twist it the way that you would like.

Seemingly if we look at the praxis of the two religions (excluding judaism because it seems to qualify slightly less for now) islam for a number of centuries was rather progressive in nature. The sharia law was interpreted in ways that were fairly positive to those who were of the book, but not practicing islam. Christianity for much of the same period, was much more hostile to those who did not practice their faith. So if we look at how individuals are behaving you could certainly say that in praxis, if not necessarily in doctrine, xianity was less tolerant than islam for quite some time.

Currently it would certainly seem that more of islam is engaged in militaristic fundamentalist thought than christianity is, though we should be fair in saying there are sects of christianity which are very fundamentalist in nature. Seemingly if we look at the praxis now, islam is perhaps less defendable as far as being a religion of peace, though many are working to make it so. Christianity in many cases struggles to be a religion of peace, but perhaps not to the degree of islam.

If you want to look at the future of both religions its difficult to be certain. Certainly if you politicize any religion enough, it is going to potentially be that much more antagonistic in a modern world which is becoming less friendly to religious expression.


However, id also ask you if you wish to critically look at this, to examine some of your own personal biases given the current situation of islam in your region of the world, which you clearly have strong views of.


Let me suggest an alternate reading of the changes that have occurred through history. Obviously it will reflect my point of view/prejudices, but that doesn't mean it is incorrect.

Islam, as has been pointed out, taught and practiced proselytization by the sword pretty much from inception. Admittedly, the time during which ā€œChristianityā€ (I will explain the ā€œā€ later) did so as well is about half of its history, but it neither began that way nor has it ended that way. As for the teachings, any scriptural support for violence, being old testament, can, and should, be interpreted figuratively/spiritually for the Christian. Winning the internal battle to purify the mind/soul/behavior etc, winning the external battle by winning others over with love, reason, and prayer.

The period of time during which ā€œthe Churchā€ practiced violence began (forgive me OnlyAmbrose) when it was adopted as the state religion of Rome, lost sight of what Jesus actually established, and became just another pagan religion of rituals, just giving everything ā€œChristianā€ names. It ended when the protestant reformation ended. Once the opposing sides were done fighting with each other, people were allowed to read the Bible for themselves and make their own decisions. Consequently we were back to a place where all competing entities had to justify what they taught and practiced according to what Jesus actually said and did, and the teachings of those who actually talked to him.

Since then, any wars ā€œin the name of Godā€ were really for nationalist or profitable ends, and though religion was used as an excuse, it is not actually the reason. I would include in that northern Ireland, and the treatment of the native Americans, among others.
Then there are idiocies like bombing abortion clinics which are the acts of misguided psychos who sought counsel neither from Christians nor from Christ.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:34 pm

BRAVO I applaud.

I dont know about your abortion clinic business. Those people have guts. And one day they'll be John Browns.
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Postby unriggable on Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:And I have read the Qu'uran before anyone insults me and says I should open my eyes and respect other religions.


Have you read the Bible lately? Pretty hateful if you ask me.
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Postby b.k. barunt on Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:52 pm

Any religion is dangerous when it attains power in the community. Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world", but the majority of professing Christians seek to manipulate society according to their beliefs. Here in America we have the religious right, who give us wankers like Bush. Lucky us. I guess this is better than the inquisitions from the Catholics, but it's still a far cry from what is actually written in the scriptures.
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Postby unriggable on Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:54 pm

I agree with BK Barunt - look at Jonestown for example. Sure it didn't do any external activity but there were so many casualties.

b.k. barunt wrote:Any religion is dangerous when it attains power in the community. Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world", but the majority of professing Christians seek to manipulate society according to their beliefs. Here in America we have the religious right, who give us wankers like Bush. Lucky us. I guess this is better than the inquisitions from the Catholics, but it's still a far cry from what is actually written in the scriptures.


Honibaz.


You keep forgetting.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:56 pm

unriggable wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:And I have read the Qu'uran before anyone insults me and says I should open my eyes and respect other religions.


Have you read the Bible lately? Pretty hateful if you ask me.


To be taken figuratively.

The Qu'uran's violence is obviously from the context violent. Mohammad's literal adherence to it also demonstrates Islam, in its precepts and refusal to dissociate spiritual and temporal, is a fascist religion.
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Postby unriggable on Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:58 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:
unriggable wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:And I have read the Qu'uran before anyone insults me and says I should open my eyes and respect other religions.


Have you read the Bible lately? Pretty hateful if you ask me.


To be taken figuratively.

The Qu'uran's violence is obviously from the context violent. Mohammad's literal adherence to it also demonstrates Islam, in its precepts and refusal to dissociate spiritual and temporal, is a fascist religion.


Just as fascist as xianity, historically speaking. From 1000 AD onward, check it out.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:59 pm

Your own post destroys itself. I am talking about the actual, intrisnic nature of religion, not its adaptation.
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Postby unriggable on Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:08 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:Your own post destroys itself. I am talking about the actual, intrisnic nature of religion, not its adaptation.


Exactly. Both Islam and Xianity are based off the same old testament so it is futile to say they are worlds apart.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:11 pm

You confuse Christianity and Judaism with Islam.

The Ku'uran is terrorist, not the Bible
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Postby unriggable on Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:13 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:You confuse Christianity and Judaism with Islam.

The Ku'uran is terrorist, not the Bible


Prove it. You can't assume that the Quran is inherently evil while the Bible is not, they're incredible similar.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:21 pm

Qu'uran -- tribal Arabia, 632 AD

Bible -- Judah, Israel, Province of Judea (Roman Empire) c. 1446 BC (dates subject of debate)--c.70AD
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Postby got tonkaed on Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:23 pm

daddygringo - i dont particularly disagree with much of what you have posted, perhaps abit on muslim prosteylizing, but all that stuff gets a bit technical in terms of history and is perhaps tangential.

However i do challenge the intent of your post as an apologetic of sorts. This thread particularly deals with an assertion that christianity by its nature is less terroristic than islam, and judaism, though it hasnt really been discussed in length as of yet. In this respect, part of what we can use to discuss some of the historical merits of this claim, is in fact the history of the religions themselves.

When we do this, we cant pick and choose and say, well this is a captive christianity or this is when people really start to get it right. After all, we arent really discussing whether or not a particular religion is the right way to practice (at least not directly). Therefore we should look at what we are presented with, not necessarily to what the idealized versions should be. Though the OP may have viewed this as an issue where the religion itself is more or less terroristic than another, i refute that assertion, by claiming that religions do not live in a vaccum, they are granted life by those who practice it. So i disagree with your previous post to that extent.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:23 pm

Qu'uran preaches (directly) that kufirs should be killed. It advocates wife beating and polygamy. It advocates terrorism

Mohammad was a terrorist pederast (yup,he married a nine yr old as third wife).
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Postby got tonkaed on Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:26 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:Qu'uran preaches (directly) that kufirs should be killed. It advocates wife beating and polygamy. It advocates terrorism

Mohammad was a terrorist pederast (yup,he married a nine yr old as third wife).


before this goes too much farther, id advise you against trying to base your argument as a smear campaign of islam, speficially mohammed.

Jesus was a seditionist, which by its nature is much more inclined to terrorism than many would like to think. We disregard this because of the positive light and message of Jesus as it appears in the bible, but this does not make his activities any less subersive to the state.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:30 pm

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the state, especially a corrupt opressive one. Mohammad was leader of a fascist state and again, was a goddamn pederast.
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Postby got tonkaed on Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:32 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the state, especially a corrupt opressive one. Mohammad was leader of a fascist state and again, was a goddamn pederast.



i think your blinding yourself to what you want to percieve. Rome at that time wasnt that oppressive to Jews, they allowed them a fair amount of self rule. Pilate according to legend only crucified Jesus because the Jews wanted it after all.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:35 pm

errrrrr...............

Their entire economy was based on slavery........
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Postby got tonkaed on Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:38 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:errrrrr...............

Their entire economy was based on slavery........


slavery has been a pretty acceptable mode of doing things for many millenia before the last few centuries.

Is it fair to judge every society before us, based on the standards we come up with later on?

would we want to be judged on the rules of society 500 hundred years from now?
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