THE FAITH OF OUR FATHERS

[Norse]

My father's faith is that my sister can still finish college... LOL!

Wow...I mean at least god is mildly plausable...

[jay_a2j]

Jay, sorry to break this to you, but the american constitution was founded on secularism. Most of the founding fathers were probably diests, athiests, or that other "iests" I can't remember.


EDIT: probably bad information on someone's part here

Can you read? If so, apparently not the quotes in the first post!

ROFL bad information...i see.

[unriggable]

Wrong. "He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions."

That's just good old fashioned racism.

The term savage is usually applied to aboriginal races on the basis that they aren't 'civilized' and does not necessarily refer to their religious beliefs.

Just pointing out that the founding fathers weren't all-loving. Although they were progressive in the sense that they had a mindset unlike any other at the time.

[Frigidus]

On a side note, we now have way too many arguments about Christianity...you'd think we could just combine them into a "jay vs. everybody else" thread or something.

[vtmarik]

Wrong. "He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions."

That's just good old fashioned racism.

The term savage is usually applied to aboriginal races on the basis that they aren't 'civilized' and does not necessarily refer to their religious beliefs.

Just pointing out that the founding fathers weren't all-loving. Although they were progressive in the sense that they had a mindset unlike any other at the time.

The point I was originally trying to make was that the Constitution applies to everyone: pagan, atheist, Christian, Muslim, Jew, or The Adherents of the Sacred Frog and His Fifteen Tadpole Concubines.

It isn't solely for moral people, as even murderers and lawyers are covered by it as well.

To reiterate:

If this was indeed a Christian nation, don't you think that would've been announced with a certain amount of pride and actually codified somehow? Like, written down in the Constitution that this nation is a Christian one?

It isn't though. And so, this isn't a Christian nation, it is simply a nation.

[unriggable]

Jay, sorry to break this to you, but the american constitution was founded on secularism. Most of the founding fathers were probably diests, athiests, or that other "iests" I can't remember.


EDIT: probably bad information on someone's part here

Can you read? If so, apparently not the quotes in the first post!

ROFL bad information...i see.

Selective quoting is often used by people in denial. But don't despair! A solution is available for you today!

f*ck off or accept you're wrong.

[ignotus]

My father's faith is that my sister can still finish college... LOL!

Wow...I mean at least god is mildly plausable...

yes

[vtmarik]

Didn't Jesus say something about "How can you remove a speck from your brother's eye when you have a plank in your own?"

Which is basically Jesus saying, "It's impossible to make others see the light when you are in the dark too."

[Norse]

Nice Avatar jay..

[unriggable]

Nice Avatar jay..

Ironic considering that he is supporting the Iraq war.

[Norse]

Nice Avatar jay..

Ironic considering that he is supporting the Iraq war.

Whatever.

I'm just saying that he has a nice avatar.

[Backglass]

How do you explain Title 11 of the Constitution then jay?



Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not once.

None of the Founding Fathers were atheists. Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible.

They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity. Most of them were stoutly opposed to the bible, and the teachings of Christianity in particular.

If the Christian Right Extremists wish to return this country to its beginnings, so be it... because it was a climate of Freethought. The Founders were students of the European Enlightenment. Half a century after the establishment of the United States, clergymen complained that no president up to that date had been a Christian. In a sermon that was reported in newspapers, Episcopal minister Bird Wilson of Albany, New York, protested in October 1831: "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism." The attitude of the age was one of enlightened reason, tolerance, and free thought. The Founding Fathers would turn in their graves if the Christian Extremists had their way with this country.

Consider this: IF indeed the members of the First Continental Congress were all bible-believing, "God-fearing" men, would there ever have been a revolution at all?

No.

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.

The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession.

[MeDeFe]

Pulling out Poor Richards Almanack is, well, somewhat ridiculous. I mean, a collection of sayings Ben F picked up while gallivanting off to weird places like Philadelphia and London. He was a businessman, no more and no less, in order to sell you have to give people what they want. If that includes a clean conscience from having your grandmas sayings on the wall, so be it.
On a side note he sold off his printing shop and newspaper when he felt he could spend the rest of his life living off what he had earned so far, I think he was around 40 or slightly younger, I'd have to dig out that autobiography to check it, though. Only problem was that politics got in the way. And this guys collection of sayings is used to promote industriousness among other things...

[joecoolfrog]

Jay refuses to believe that the USA has secular government,he says its bullshit,he really is not that bright is he.

[2dimes]

I'll explain article 11. This would be back when the United States had the good sense, to avoid entering "into and war or act of hostility against any Mohometan nation."

Time to ink that out now that you're messing around over there. Phone George's pals in congress they'll do it.

[Guiscard]

The faith of my fathers...

Norse

Fucking immigrants...

[unriggable]

None of the Founding Fathers were atheists. Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books.

The use of the word creator in the declaration and constitution is to show that rights such as free speech, etc were not given to you by the government. They are human rights. They are simply rights every person should have, and since they have to be given by someone then they threw in 'the Creator'.

[vtmarik]

How do you explain Title 11 of the Constitution then jay?

(cut for space)

Dude, that's the Treaty of Tripoli.

I applaud your effort, but getting it wrong makes us look weak.

[unriggable]

How do you explain Title 11 of the Constitution then jay?

(cut for space)

Dude, that's the Treaty of Tripoli.

I applaud your effort, but getting it wrong makes us look weak.

It bears repeating a fifth time, since jay is still convinced America is a completely christian country. Facts aren't something the right easily understands, apparently.

[neoni]

jay you are an idiot

[vtmarik]

How do you explain Title 11 of the Constitution then jay?

(cut for space)

Dude, that's the Treaty of Tripoli.

I applaud your effort, but getting it wrong makes us look weak.

It bears repeating a fifth time, since jay is still convinced America is a completely christian country. Facts aren't something the right easily understands, apparently.

Agreed, but I wouldn't put it above Jay to say something like "That's not in the Constitution, therefore your entire argument is invalid."

[unriggable]

I love how he is still convinced that America is christian in another thread. Arrogance is bliss.

[vtmarik]

I love how he is still convinced that America is christian in another thread. Arrogance is bliss.

Every new thread is a new reality.

[joecoolfrog]

I love how he is still convinced that America is christian in another thread. Arrogance is bliss.

And on a further thread the outraged voice of the Christian right is complaining about militant atheists targeting poor Christians

[vtmarik]

I love how he is still convinced that America is christian in another thread. Arrogance is bliss.

And on a further thread the outraged voice of the Christian right is complaining about militant atheists targeting poor Christians