Tories feel insecure about their penis size

[Titanic]

The single most populatio- wealth enhancing measure ever taken, and because of this, it turned most working classes into middle classes.

Lol, no it wasnt. It only helped those who could actually afford it, ie, lower middle class. The actual lower class who could barely live on council estates could not afford to buy out their house. The minimum wage has done more to help the lower class close the gap towards the middle class. Btw, the tories were totally against the minimum wage when it was first introduced.

BTW, there certainly is not better working rights now, in fact labour have shrugged off the unions even more than the tories did.

Lol no. The tories did, remember the miners strike? They completely took all power away from unions and left them in a dire situation. Labour do not set out to cause the unions disruption because the unions pay a significant amount of Labours running costs.

Plus who gives a f*ck about pinochet?

Those people who care about human rights, and innocent lives, and freedom of expression and views.

Plus I see no benefit to myself writing off the 3rd world debt, especially when considering the British were the only ones to have accrued any debt for the 2nd world war, and despite us "saving the world" we still had to pay the yanks back.

Firstly, we did not "save the world". We alone could never have won WWII, we only just managed to hold of the Luftwaffe on home territory, and that was because of a huge tactical mistake by Hitler and the high command.

Secondly, it was not only Britain which had debts to the USA and Canada after WWII. Other countries, and European countries, also have debts from the lend-lease programme and the Marshall plan (which alone involved 15 countries).

Writing of 3rd world debt is important. It is this debt which prevents African countries (and the other countries in the world) from expanding their economy, feeding their people, fighting corruption, and eventually leads to the civil wars. Obviously other factors do count, but having billions of pounds of debt removed can help clear air make a difference. Also, it is partly out imperialistic ideas which put them in the situation they are in now, so it should be our duty to their citizens to at least make sure they can live their lives.

In fact, an independent survey has revealed recently, that in britain, we are now workking longer hours, and being paid less...when taking into account inflation, than we were 15 years ago..

Working longer hours..possible..I dunno the statistic on this. Show your proof please.

Being paid less, even after taking inflation into account, pure bullsh*t. Public sectors workers up until this year have recieved an above inflation wage increase (generally 1%-3% above). Private sector workers generally get an even better deal, especially because the finance and service sectors have boomed in the past 10 years within the UK, and these are high paying jobs and have huge amounts of employees (around 65%-70% of the UK workforce).

Oh yes, the public secter Laughing

Lazy, inefficient, uncompetitive bone idle wastage.

The public sector when in good hands can do a very good job. Look at the NHS compares to the private health care in USA. Also, transport fares have rocketed since they were privatised, at least with government subsidies travel resonably priced.

What has chile got to do with the price of mature cheddar?

That depends on how narrow minded your vision and motives are.

I trust the Labour government much more then the Tories. The tories abolished the GLC and made London suffer just because Ken Livingstone, a labour candidate, became the leader of the council. They held back international efforts to end the aparthied in SA. They viewed Nelson Mandela as a terrorist. The bought about a recession in the early 90's. They caused the pound to crash in value. They sucked education and healthcare dry and put them in terrible states. They supported people who had human rights abuses against their names. Want me to continue?

Titanic, I think you're cool and all, and I like your style.

But don't you think that post was excessively long? I mean, how long did it honestly take you, and why do you care that much?

Thats a long post?

It only took me about 5 mins, and most of that was quoting Norse. Actually answering his points was easy.

I do it because I actually do politics as a degree and am in the debating society, so this kind of just gives me practice and is what I do.

[duday53]

WTF is a torie?

Conservative...

a party in britian







and that is the extent of my political knowledge

There is a Progressive Conservative party in Canad too.

[joecoolfrog]

Titanic

Im sorry mate but you are wrong about the right to buy policy, Norse is quite correct when he says that it enabled millions of working class people to aspire to a better lifestyle. I was brought up in a huge council estate which was transformed within a few short years by home ownership, it eventually enabled my parents to retire to a small house in the country rather than rot in urban squallor.
You are also mistaken about the economics of buying a council house at the time, my father told me that his mortgage was only very slightly higher than his rent at the time he bought and within 4 years he was paying less per month than the council tenants !
As I actually lived right through the Thatcher years ( And God help me the Callaghan years that predeeded them ) it is amusing to see her government castigated by todays Brown supporters. You dont seem to realise that the present Labour government has supported policies that would have been thought very right wing 25 years ago, so much has British politics swung towards the centre . Thatcher broke the mould and the old style Torys and Socialists are a relic of the past, there is actually very little difference now between the 2 main parties though the Liberal party of course remains refreshingly Lunatic .

[AlgyTaylor]

Against selling off the national transport, communications and utilities to line their own profits? Allowing natural gas to be burnt off to make electricity, so now we have to buy in gas from overseas? I could go on.

Oh yes, the public secter

Lazy, inefficient, uncompetitive bone idle wastage.

I think it's probably got more to do with them having some civic responsibility - something that the private sector (learn how to spell) shed long ago.

If you provide a civic service (eg sending letters to Orkney for the same price as sending them down the road) you can't hope to compete with the private sector. Doesn't mean that it isn't valuable though, does it?

What has chile got to do with the price of mature cheddar?

Nothing. But it's got a lot to do with human rights.

I feel your pain, you cantankerous, blissfully ignorant, probably jobless git.

Bring back the 70's! Hurrah!

Seriously though, Im assuming that you are either a bitter 60 year old ex-miner, or a 1st year politics student. Learn some facts about what you spout off in future.

Wrong on all counts, I'm afraid. Kompute programmer and in my 20s, never studied politics in my life because I wanted to learn some skills that were actually useful to me. Not that there's anything wrong with studying for the sake of, of course - it's just not what I wanted.

The Tories caused untold damage to this country, some of which has been already outlined and there's lots more that hasn't. I don't for one minute think that Maggie Thatcher was the devil incarnate and that everything she touched turned into shite. But a lot of it did.

[joecoolfrog]

Algy
I disagree with your evaluation of the years of Tory rule but its simply a matter of opinion so will leave it at that. What is not in dispute is that the Labour party was forced into reorganising itself along more or less Tory lines in order to get itself elected, it has also you might note singularly failed to overturn the vast majority of Thatcher inspired initiatives

[AlgyTaylor]

Agree totally with you there, for better or worse she's changed British politics probably more than any one other individual.

[Titanic]

Algy
I disagree with your evaluation of the years of Tory rule but its simply a matter of opinion so will leave it at that. What is not in dispute is that the Labour party was forced into reorganising itself along more or less Tory lines in order to get itself elected, it has also you might note singularly failed to overturn the vast majority of Thatcher inspired initiatives

Labour did not go into the Tory lines, all that happened was that Blair made it less socialist. They went the Third Way, not to the right. They are still more left centre then right.

Also, they did change a lot of Thatchers policies (Major changed quite a few himself), but the more noticeable ones like privatisation would have been very hard to overturn because it was just too expensive to buy out the companies again.

[AlgyTaylor]

Aye, some of the things Thatcher destroyed are now near impossible to get back. As mentioned before, nationalising stuff out of wartime

[Norse]

Titanic, I think you're cool and all, and I like your style.

But don't you think that post was excessively long? I mean, how long did it honestly take you, and why do you care that much?

Are you having a fooking giraffe mate?

Style??...what style? If spouting out misguided, ignorant garbage is style, then Get_tonkaed is a fooking glamour model.

[Norse]

Plus, I'd like to have seen tony bliar go half way across the world and defeated the Argie-Bargies on their own doorstep....Blair would have probably given the falklands away.

The single most important british military victory in the past 25 years.

I salute you, Lady thatcher!

And, to answer you bolsheviks RE the miners....we're sitting on 300 years supply of coal...why in the fooking world would we need to mine anymore? Just to keep the miners happy? haha! typical foolish pinkoes...

[heavycola]

Sure, Im guessing that most of you rats have forgotten the "right to buy" policy introduced by the tories.

The single most populatio- wealth enhancing measure ever taken, and because of this, it turned most working classes into middle classes.

Actually that was probably the intorduction of inheritance tax whcih effectively destroyed the landed classes. Right-to-buy was a nice idea, but it has decimated the affordable housing supply and we are in a bit of a pickle now as a result.

PS i am a housing journalist, incidentally, a job that took me to the Rowner estate in Gosport on wednesday. Norse i hope you live the right side of the ferry. What an irredeemable shithole.

[Norse]

Sure, Im guessing that most of you rats have forgotten the "right to buy" policy introduced by the tories.

The single most populatio- wealth enhancing measure ever taken, and because of this, it turned most working classes into middle classes.

Actually that was probably the intorduction of inheritance tax whcih effectively destroyed the landed classes. Right-to-buy was a nice idea, but it has decimated the affordable housing supply and we are in a bit of a pickle now as a result.

PS i am a housing journalist, incidentally, a job that took me to the Rowner estate in Gosport on wednesday. Norse i hope you live the right side of the ferry. What an irredeemable shithole.

My word HC...im suprised you made it out of Rowner alive....Bandit country around there.

I live in a pleasent little hovel, just on the other side of pompey.

[joecoolfrog]

Algy
I disagree with your evaluation of the years of Tory rule but its simply a matter of opinion so will leave it at that. What is not in dispute is that the Labour party was forced into reorganising itself along more or less Tory lines in order to get itself elected, it has also you might note singularly failed to overturn the vast majority of Thatcher inspired initiatives

Labour did not go into the Tory lines, all that happened was that Blair made it less socialist. They went the Third Way, not to the right. They are still more left centre then right.

Also, they did change a lot of Thatchers policies (Major changed quite a few himself), but the more noticeable ones like privatisation would have been very hard to overturn because it was just too expensive to buy out the companies again.

Hee Hee the Third way is just spin, they could hardly admit to being the copycat party could they If you look at much of Labours current policy on immigration,security,trade unions or even health then they would have been considered very right wing not so very long ago.
My view is that there is such a general concensus in politics now that a Brown or Cameron government would not be radicaly different, its a question of personality now as much as anything. What I would like to add is that Brown,by ignoring pretty much everybody, made a huge blunder by intoducing the tax on pension dividends. As a direct consequence tens of thousands of ordinary working people have seen their retirement dreams shattered and the pension industry is now in a right old mess. In order to keep public sector workers happy however he has made no attempt to limit the huge strain that will be put on the economy in future years by the index linked pensions that they enjoy, its a ticking time bomb !

[Norse]

Joe, you're wasting your breath with tit.

Just check any other conversation that is had with him. He isn't particularly bright, and has been fed on a strict diet of "Viva la presidente!". He is happy to be a mindless, autonomous drone. I mean, ffs, he's just started Uni and he posts on the net in this crappy forum.. when I had just started uni, i was on the piss for the first few months, making love to many ugly women, and traffic cones.

This boy has no life, and no free-will.

His Opinions are null, as far as the norse is concerned.

[Stopper]

What I would like to add is that Brown,by ignoring pretty much everybody, made a huge blunder by intoducing the tax on pension dividends. As a direct consequence tens of thousands of ordinary working people have seen their retirement dreams shattered and the pension industry is now in a right old mess.

Sorry, but this issue has been massively overblown. The single biggest factor for the apparent failure of so many company pension schemes is Financial Reporting Standard 17, and definitely not Brown's withdrawal of tax relief on dividends.

FRS 17 was hugely controversial way back when it was introduced by the Accounting Standards Board, and I remember disaster was predicted by my lecturers at the time, back in 2001 or whenever. It was finally enforced in 2005, with the trade unions and the National Association of Pension Fund Managers all wanting it scrapped. It forced companies to account for pensions assets and liabilities when they hadn't done before - and the way these were shown in balance sheets makes them look as if they are often massively in deficit. Who is responsible for managing companies' pension funds? Not the chancellor.

Even though I'm a qualified accountant, I don't pretend to fully understand all the issues around it, but I do know that singling Brown out for withdrawing tax relief on dividends back in 1997 is just a desperate attempt by hostile newspapers to inject even the slightest shade of pink into this True-Blue chancellor.

[joecoolfrog]

What I would like to add is that Brown,by ignoring pretty much everybody, made a huge blunder by intoducing the tax on pension dividends. As a direct consequence tens of thousands of ordinary working people have seen their retirement dreams shattered and the pension industry is now in a right old mess.

Sorry, but this issue has been massively overblown. The single biggest factor for the apparent failure of so many company pension schemes is Financial Reporting Standard 17, and definitely not Brown's withdrawal of tax relief on dividends.

FRS 17 was hugely controversial way back when it was introduced by the Accounting Standards Board, and I remember disaster was predicted by my lecturers at the time, back in 2001 or whenever. It was finally enforced in 2005, with the trade unions and the National Association of Pension Fund Managers all wanting it scrapped. It forced companies to account for pensions assets and liabilities when they hadn't done before - and the way these were shown in balance sheets makes them look as if they are often massively in deficit. Who is responsible for managing companies' pension funds? Not the chancellor.

Even though I'm a qualified accountant, I don't pretend to fully understand all the issues around it, but I do know that singling Brown out for withdrawing tax relief on dividends back in 1997 is just a desperate attempt by hostile newspapers to inject even the slightest shade of pink into this True-Blue chancellor.

I think few would consider the Scotsman to be particularly hostile to either Brown or Labour so decide for yourselves;
http://www.scotlandonsunday.scotsman.co ... =538832007

[Stopper]

I think few would consider the Scotsman to be particularly hostile to either Brown or Labour so decide for yourselves;
http://www.scotlandonsunday.scotsman.co ... =538832007

Well, I've read it, and your source struggles to place much blame on Brown, despite the fact that the Scotsman is not, and never has been, as Labour-supporting as people might think, deeply Tory as it is.

As it says, the actuarial profession was the first to blow the whistle, after which, I can say, but the article does not, the accountancy profession argued amongst itself, and with the trade unions, and others, about the issue.

Much like with the Northern Rock recently, nobody who was in a position to raise the issue with the public, eg financial journalists, really knew what was going on until the shit hit the fan. Once it's happened, you can be sure lots of journalists and columnists are happy to place blame.

The fact remains, though, that Brown has governed this country very much along the neo-liberal grounds that most of our newspapers would normally support, not least by giving independence to the Bank of England within the first few days of taking power. Brown sticks in my craw for a lot of reasons, but I can't fault him by the standards of the Times, the Telegraph, or the Mail. By their lights, and whatever they might say, he's been more-or-less absolutely perfect - not least by preventing a recession in the UK in the early 2000's even though they still fucking complained about that - except he hasn't privatised the NHS and abolished that infernal, evil inheritance tax!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

[Norse]

Joe should know that sloppy is another scottish marxist, before we continue.

The scots, who are so bitterly dead set against anyone with any entrepenurial abiltity tryin to turn a sheckle or 2, who preach this mantra of equality, actually over-represent our parliament...maybe we should enfore a little equality ie. positive discrimination onto these closet pinkoes?

Just a thought.

Bah, what am I saying, most of them are probably engliish in blood, after the valiant english breeding campaigns up there.

[Stopper]

Joe should know that sloppy is another scottish marxist, before we continue.

The scots, who are so bitterly dead set against anyone with any entrepenurial abiltity tryin to turn a sheckle or 2, who preach this mantra of equality, actually over-represent our parliament...maybe we should enfore a little equality ie. positive discrimination onto these closet pinkoes?

Just a thought.

Bah, what am I saying, most of them are probably engliish in blood, after the valiant english breeding campaigns up there.

No, "Sloppy", far from being a Marxist of any kind whatsoever, is a Scottish chartered accountant, and as neutral and financially conservative as they come. Being neutral when it comes to fiscal measures, however, would put anyone to the "left" of much of the British press these days.

You, "Nosewipe", having completely bought into so much of the complete shit they peddle, can't see this, and are just left to parrot the bollocks they spout. It's as if you were that copy of the Daily Mail I didn't buy in the newsagent today (like every other day) come to haunt me for ignoring it.

[Guiscard]

It's as if you were that copy of the Daily Mail I didn't buy in the newsagent today (like every other day) come to haunt me for ignoring it.

Norse this is sigworthy...

[Norse]

Sloppy...you ok? Sounds as though someone just wound you up....maybe you should have a herbal tea?

[Titanic]

Algy
I disagree with your evaluation of the years of Tory rule but its simply a matter of opinion so will leave it at that. What is not in dispute is that the Labour party was forced into reorganising itself along more or less Tory lines in order to get itself elected, it has also you might note singularly failed to overturn the vast majority of Thatcher inspired initiatives

Labour did not go into the Tory lines, all that happened was that Blair made it less socialist. They went the Third Way, not to the right. They are still more left centre then right.

Also, they did change a lot of Thatchers policies (Major changed quite a few himself), but the more noticeable ones like privatisation would have been very hard to overturn because it was just too expensive to buy out the companies again.

Hee Hee the Third way is just spin, they could hardly admit to being the copycat party could they If you look at much of Labours current policy on immigration,security,trade unions or even health then they would have been considered very right wing not so very long ago.
My view is that there is such a general concensus in politics now that a Brown or Cameron government would not be radicaly different, its a question of personality now as much as anything. What I would like to add is that Brown,by ignoring pretty much everybody, made a huge blunder by intoducing the tax on pension dividends. As a direct consequence tens of thousands of ordinary working people have seen their retirement dreams shattered and the pension industry is now in a right old mess. In order to keep public sector workers happy however he has made no attempt to limit the huge strain that will be put on the economy in future years by the index linked pensions that they enjoy, its a ticking time bomb !

Labour immigration policy is right wing? Is that the open door policy they had to Eastern Europe whic let in 600,000 people? How is that right wing/.

Security policy is not left, I agree with that, but before 9/11 it was definately more left then it is now.

Their stance on trade unions is defeinately more positive then any Tory government. Labour receive a significant amount of their funding from trade unions, so there is no way they will run them down like the Tories do.

Health is definately not right wing. They have pumped hundreds of billions of pounds into the NHS, and rearranged contracts with dentists and GP's, and given local health authorities more power over their hospitals rather then the central state deciding.