the truth about haunika

[muy_thaiguy]

The Jews have been one of the most discriminated people in history.

that's true. it's very sad what happened to them in ww2 - great injustice and pain was inflicted upon them.

but still i don't like jews to be exact israelites - holocaust is no excuse for americans and jews did after ww2, they took land from palestinian people and declared it to be israel - it would be like italians proclaimed themselves to be successor of Roman Empire and declared most of the europe to be italy. one injustice can't be corrected by another. how many blood in middle east was spilled because of what americans cooked up? was this really necessary?

that's why they are still not liked by many around world. i personally think if americans wanted so much to make a homeland for hebrew they should have given them part of their own territory - america is full of jews anyway so it wouldn't be such a dramatic change - and call it israel, jewland or something.

Uhm, Britain and a few other countries had hand in making Israel as well, not just the US. And if you want change the subject so much, start another thread.

[unriggable]

I always feel bad when I see the family guy clip of the two jews carrying the giant stone blocks (for those of you who haven't seen it, one of them says how every race gets equal punishment, and the jewish race is lucky to get theirs out early and that from then on it will be "smooth sailing")

[Simonov]

The Jews have been one of the most discriminated people in history.

that's true. it's very sad what happened to them in ww2 - great injustice and pain was inflicted upon them.

but still i don't like jews to be exact israelites - holocaust is no excuse for americans and jews did after ww2, they took land from palestinian people and declared it to be israel - it would be like italians proclaimed themselves to be successor of Roman Empire and declared most of the europe to be italy. one injustice can't be corrected by another. how many blood in middle east was spilled because of what americans cooked up? was this really necessary?

that's why they are still not liked by many around world. i personally think if americans wanted so much to make a homeland for hebrew they should have given them part of their own territory - america is full of jews anyway so it wouldn't be such a dramatic change - and call it israel, jewland or something.

Uhm, Britain and a few other countries had hand in making Israel as well, not just the US. And if you want change the subject so much, start another thread.

yes they did. but not willingly. palestine was under british rule before ww2. they even tried to stop imigration of jews there but where heavily criticized by US for that. they had no choice.

[AtomicSlug]

The British Balfour Declaration was BS. No wonder the Jews sought to seek sovereignty! And they kicked ass in the 7 day war, the Yom Kippur war, and also took out a nuclear power plant in Iraq. Unfortunately, the leader of that attack died in the Space Shuttle explosion.

OK, so why are we in Iraq? Israel has the best fighter pilots in the world (fact). They have also proved they can more than adequately defend themselves against attacks from multiple nations.

Attacking Iraq (just to get off-topic) was a huge mistake for the USA. Israel is more than capable of taking care of itself.

Anyway, read ur history dudes. I recommend a book called "A Concise History of the Middle East" - sorry, I forgot the author, google it and stfu.

[Simonov]

No wonder the Jews sought to seek sovereignty!

what stinking soverenity? jews were a minority there. just take a look at this numbers:


if anyone could have asked for soverenity that was palestinian arabs. nazi germany actually did a great favor to israel historically speaking - because formation of isreal was a sort of compensation for what jews endured during ww2. if there wasn't ww2 there would be no israel today - so i think you israelites should build a monument to Hitler in the center of Jerusalem
- you're following his vision of world anyways just this time your race is superior to arabs.

palestine was an arab land for last 15 centuries or so. maybe mayas and apachee should seek soverenity next, or perhaps ottoman empire should demand restoration of their western border in eastern europe like it was under suleiman the great. bollock i say. ..

and why didn't US make a home for all those jew in their own land - let me say to you: because they didn't want them there. just couldn't say so openly.

and also took out a nuclear power plant in Iraq.

that was a very smart move. bravo let's cause a nuclear catastrophe to defend zion.

your probably jewish or have somebody close who is - right atomic?

p.s. i have to emphasize i have nothing against jews. they are same to me like any other people on the planet. just hate when israel is justifying their obvious crimes with hollocaust. and anyone who says anything against them is acussed to be nazist or jew-hater and is linched publically. i think they used enough of that we are the victims here bollocks.

[lackattack]

if anyone could have asked for soverenity that was palestinian arabs. nazi germany actually did a great favor to israel historically speaking - because formation of isreal was a sort of compensation for what jews endured during ww2. if there wasn't ww2 there would be no israel today - so i think you israelites should build a monument to Hitler in the center of Jerusalem
- you're following his vision of world anyways just this time your race is superior to arabs.

Clearly this is a thread for outrageously anti-semitic comments, so thank you for staying on topic, Simonov.

Let me make a few things clear for our readers.

1. Jews had begun moving back to Israel since the late 1800's and the Zionist movement should have suceeded in establishing a Jewish state whether or not there had been a holocaust. So Hitler's "favour" of wiping out 6 million Jews wasn't needed to establish a Jewish homeland.

2. Just because Palestinian arabs deserve sovereignty doesn't mean Jews don't. A 1948 UN resolution split the land into two states, a sensible solution when you have competing land claims. Unfortunately one side refused to share...

3. If you thinks Jews have Hitler's vision of racial superiority... ummm... I'm not sure what to say. That's pretty scary. Simonov feels that everyone jumps on him unfairly for his views, but views that are so misguided must be fueled by ignorance or hate. In this case I'd venture that weever is the ignorant one and Simonov is the hateful one.

[Simonov]

1. i disagree. post-ww2 world politics enabled creation of israel. Zionist movement was no more right then hitler's movement for repopulating lebensraum (east europe and russia) with germans.

2. why share what's rightfully yours? look my previous post. will you give US back to indians because it was their homeland before yours?

3. don't think they have vision like that just act like they do. don't u watch the news for christ-sake? 5 israeli soldiers get killed so israel levels 5 palestinian villages to ground as retribution. don't hate jews just what they are doing in palestine as anyone normal should.

ps just like i said you say something against israeli politics and crimes and suddenly you are a terrible and hatefull person. sorry for daring to question the recent history of "god-chosen" nation, they can do what they like right since this world was created for them.(this is the way of reasoning of hardcore jews - this is an irony just as that one about hitler's monument was in case u don't get it again)

[Aegnor]

Simonov, Palestine was frigging wasteland before we got here. We single handedly turned this place into the modern country it is today (well perhaps with some funds from our friendly jews abroad, but there are like a billion Muslims on earth, can't they help their fellow brothers as well?).

The Palestinians have no vision. They are lead by barbaric leaders who want nothing other than destroying us, they don't give a crap about their own people and they let them die in stupid fights between their militias. Your claim that there were more Muslims than Jews in 1948 is irrelevant - I bet that on 1600 there were more Native Americans than European settlers in North America, should Americans give up their lands for the natives' descendant?

Saying that Israelis have no right to live here is being ignorant for the least. And I don't mind going off topic, because the topic of this thread is as dumb as its original poster.

[Simonov]

Simonov, Palestine was frigging wasteland before we got here. We single handedly turned this place into the modern country it is today (well perhaps with some funds from our friendly jews abroad, but there are like a billion Muslims on earth, can't they help their fellow brothers as well?).

it's true what you say aegnor. but the way in which you acquired that land was unjust. i don't say you should leave israel now, but you got a lot of innocent blood on your hands in the process.

The Palestinians have no vision. They are lead by barbaric leaders who want nothing other than destroying us, they don't give a crap about their own people and they let them die in stupid fights between their militias.

partly true, recent events show this. these people are desperate that why they behave so desperately and it's partly fault of israelites you must admit.

Your claim that there were more Muslims than Jews in 1948 is irrelevant - I bet that on 1600 there were more Native Americans than European settlers in North America, should Americans give up their lands for the natives' descendant?

didn't said that was right - i think it was very wrong to commit genocide of indians. but that were 1600 i hoped that world would surpass this way of behaviour especially after ww2 and that's why this saddens me more.

Saying that Israelis have no right to live here is being ignorant for the least. And I don't mind going off topic, because the topic of this thread is as dumb as its original poster.

they had the right, just like anywhere else in the world. they had no real right - (except what they believed was their god given right, and that's really no argument in global politics) - to establish their country on palestinian ground at the time.

but now you have that right - invested to many work and lives into that land to just leave it. i'm beginning to see what mess you got yourself into. i guess that the price of all the wrong you did against palestinians.
i think it would be right to enable creation of free palestine, but see you have serious problem with this issue since there are many muslim extremist who want no less then all palestine. tough one if u ask me.
there needs to be strong will and understanding from both sides and i feel there is no such thing from either israeli or arab side.
you started the vicious circle and now don't know how to stop it. you fear their attacks so you attack not to get attacked. then they get mad for you attacking them and so on..........war is never a solution to anything and if u continue this way there bound to be more pain and suffering for both sides.
don't know exactly who said this but it's very wise: "war is a game with no winners"

[Aegnor]

One thing that I must stress: We have done no "wrong" to the Palestinians. We didn't drive any Palestinian from Israel! They fled(!!!!!!!) at 1948 when their allies from Egypt, Syria, Saudi arebia, Lebanon, and Jordan failed to obliterate us After the UN itself decided by a majority of votes that an Israeli country would rise alongside a Palestinian one. The Arabs didn't like the idea the of the presence of an Israeli country in "their" precious lands (there were many Hebrew settlements here way Before 1948, that grew larger throughout the years), So instead of investing cash in developing the Palestinian territories they decided to attack us! What should we do? Surrender and thank them for their generous gesture or fight for our lives? It's not our fault that 6 countries couldn't beat a 1 day old nation.

[CrazyAnglican]

celebrated because the jews massacared 15,000 innocent greeks (men,woman, and children). no joke.

yes....and the holocaust never happened.

do some research. a college professor told me that. we dont know about it because the jews hid it.there are diffrent types of perspectives from history.

A college professor told you and you believe it without doing any research yourself. College professors can be biggots. They can also be wrong. Do you have any independent resources that you can site? Otherwise what you're saying amounts to this: "I'm right, I can't prove it because the other guy is crooked, but I AM RIGHT".

[Aegnor]

Anglican, arguing with him is like trying to persuade a catholic that god doesn't exist.

[muy_thaiguy]

Anglican, arguing with him is like trying to persuade a catholic that god doesn't exist.

And your point is? (I' am a Catholic by the way. )

[Simonov]

One thing that I must stress: We have done no "wrong" to the Palestinians. We didn't drive any Palestinian from Israel! They fled(!!!!!!!) at 1948 when their allies from Egypt, Syria, Saudi arebia, Lebanon, and Jordan failed to obliterate us After the UN itself decided by a majority of votes that an Israeli country would rise alongside a Palestinian one. The Arabs didn't like the idea the of the presence of an Israeli country in "their" precious lands (there were many Hebrew settlements here way Before 1948, that grew larger throughout the years), So instead of investing cash in developing the Palestinian territories they decided to attack us! What should we do? Surrender and thank them for their generous gesture or fight for our lives? It's not our fault that 6 countries couldn't beat a 1 day old nation.

you can't be involved in several wars with other nation and say: we did no wrong. your governament has known well what arab response to israel's independence would be, and was preparing for war long ago while saying you want peace and coexistence. you had a lot of foreign help especially from US and jews in emigration so it's a lot exaggerating to say we won even though odds were 6:1.and this countries weren't exactly superpowers.

arabs did a lot of harm to your people as well, they weren't exactly nice guys when it comes to jews but recently the world's view on arabs is very bad and i had the need to defend them in this matter - you're both equally guilty if u ask me. and i think it's less important who started first now. put away your weapons a fight in the debate rooms! until both sides do this i think you arabs and jews absolutely deserve each other. your hate of each other will destroy both of your people eventually.

why things couldn't look like this instead of senceless violence.

[Aegnor]

Simonov, we tried talking to them. They want absolute power. We offered them lands. What did they ask for instead? The right to bring into Israeli territories millions of people who claim to be the descendants of the original Palestinians who fled at 1948. I have no problem that millions of arabs will go and live in Gaza strip, but not in Tel aviv or Jerusalem!

They want our illegal settlements disbanded? Done 2 years ago. What do we get in return? Thousands of rockets fired at our cities from inside the Gaza strip, and still being fired every day!

We can't negotiate with those who do not WANT to negotiate.

[qeee1]

This thread makes me sad. Palestinians are not barbarians, and are not terrorists.

We have done no "wrong" to the Palestinians

is the embodiment of this thread, and opinions around the world more generally. Why do Palestinians leave, they fled supposedly, why the hell did they flee if there was no wrong done? If they so willingly fled why are they fighting for the right of return.

Their been driven out not by point of sword, but by making their lives unlivable. Usually (excluding the supposed counter terrorist measure such as gunning down families... which shouldn't be understated either) nobody has approached Palestinians and forced them to leave, they've instead enacted various different measures to make life untenable. At it's worst it's sure you can live here, but you won't have any water. Furthermore Isreal has staunchly refused to allow Palestinians the right of return. By enacting such measures they hope to create a major demographic shift that will render Jews wholly dominant in the area while tip toeing around UN regulations.

It's against that sort of background that many Palestinians have resorted to measures which would be considered outside the law i.e. illegal, such as (at their most extreme) violence. Saying, just sit down and talk isn't a suitable solution when life is untenable.

I'm not saying Isreal should or shouldn't exist, I'm just saying that what's happening now is a disgrace. It shouldn't exist the way it is now anyway.

Aegnor only sees one side of things, to him the Jewish population is wholly reasonable and the Palestinian population wholly barbarous. To debate with him is pointless.

EDIT: Also the start of this thread is full of anti-semitic nonsense. One would be best to ignore it.

[Aegnor]

Qeee I've never said that the Palestinians were barbaric, I said that their leaders were, which is true. I bet that 90% of the Palestinians are against conflict and would like to lead their simple lives without violence or hate. But they are being led and MISLED by a bunch of opportunitists who live in their barricaded fortresses, planning their next assault on Israeli civilians in order to incite our leaders to attack them, thus making their regime legitimate in the eyes of their people.

There is a solution. The Palestinian people does not or will not accept it. prime minister Rabin started the process and was assassinated shortly after. The extremists both on our side and on the Palestinian side are ruining every chance for true peace.

And one more thing, the day we remove our supervision on the Palestinian territories, which allegedly creates a great injustice as Qeee says, will be the day Iran, Syria (and who knows what other extreme nations) ship TONS of fire arms to Gaza strip in order to eliminate us yet again.

In a perfect world there would be no weapons, we don't live in such a world.

[Simonov]

Simonov, we tried talking to them. They want absolute power. We offered them lands. What did they ask for instead? The right to bring into Israeli territories millions of people who claim to be the descendants of the original Palestinians who fled at 1948. I have no problem that millions of arabs will go and live in Gaza strip, but not in Tel aviv or Jerusalem!

They want our illegal settlements disbanded? Done 2 years ago. What do we get in return? Thousands of rockets fired at our cities from inside the Gaza strip, and still being fired every day!

We can't negotiate with those who do not WANT to negotiate.

try again, especially with younger generation. don't give them more reasons to hate you by taking military actions against their cities and retribution actions of large scales to show off your power - that won't stop them it will only make things worse, be a little self-critic did your governament use up all possible solutions before using force? . i don't believe that all palestinians are so unreasonable, i actually believe that most of them are quite tired of war. i don't know really what would resolve your situation. wouldn't like to be in your position. try again i say - peace is the only way, only then wounds can heal and people can get on with their lives. help them heal from theirs fanatic jihad ways.by war you'll only fuel this part of their identity. make anti-war protests of youth from both sides, do something it's easiest to say they're unreasonable i can do nothing about it, and sit on your hands while war rages - do it so your children can live in a safer and happier world. have you tried speaking to any palestinians yourself?

[Aegnor]

Simonov, unfortunately this conflict is not black and white so it can't be ended that easily. Our current government is weak and spineless, we have too many politicians and not enough leaders (not even one to be exact). I can't see the conflict ending in my lifetime, which makes me rather sad.

[Serbia]

I'd like to point out that there really is no such thing as a Palestinian, or Jordanian, Lebanese, they are all Arabs. Palestine, Jordan and Lebanon are all British creations, with 'Palestine' being a take off on Philistia, which has bibical roots, and the Philistines were not Arabs, and have no connection to the current 'Palestinians. There has never been a Palestinian nation or government at any time in history. So don't try saying that the Arabs who were living in the area prior to 1948 have any more right to that land than the Israelis do. The UK was in charge of that area after WWII, and set the boundries.

[Simonov]

I'd like to point out that there really is no such thing as a Palestinian, or Jordanian, Lebanese, they are all Arabs. Palestine, Jordan and Lebanon are all British creations, with 'Palestine' being a take off on Philistia, which has bibical roots, and the Philistines were not Arabs, and have no connection to the current 'Palestinians. There has never been a Palestinian nation or government at any time in history. So don't try saying that the Arabs who were living in the area prior to 1948 have any more right to that land than the Israelis do. The UK was in charge of that area after WWII, and set the boundries.

yes they had as any other nation that was under british rule after the breakdown of british colonial empire. they were descendents of people who lived there for last 15 centuries - if that's not good right i don't know what is. and actually not all arabs are the same - palestine was a separate province in almost all great arab empires - the name palestine was lost in the last period of ottoman rule of that area.

and if u look at history books you'll see that all times during arab control of the area jews were allowed to return and live there freely and had all the rights others had - but still they were a minority in comparison to arab population. only arguments jews had to claim that area as their own are religious. muslim were quite tolerant to jews unlike romans, greeks and christians if you look.

According to various genetic studies, Jewish and Samaritan populations and various Palestinian populations overlap genetically because they share some of the same Neolithic ancestors.

..perhaps the majority, of the Muslim Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD... These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistoric times

The study demonstrates that the Y chromosome pool of Jews is an integral part of the genetic landscape of the region and, in particular, that Jews exhibit a high degree of genetic affinity to populations living in the north of the Fertile Crescent

so you see current arab and jewish population were once one people. israel/palestine should have been one secular country with two religions, but i think it was more jewish desire to have a country of their own with david's star on the flag - i don't say that's wrong but you had to think about current residents of that land - and they way you did it was catastrophic. when you say aegnor that you wish not to see large arab population in jerusalem i can understand that (especially when recent history is taken into account).you have no more right to that city then islamic palestinians.ask yourself how come jews had no serious problems there for 15 ct under arab rule but once you took over that region problems started.

come on man philistines lost control of that area more then 700 years BC - that's ancient history , and were not originally from that part of the world even then. you speak as if they were populating this area a hundred years ago.

[Aegnor]

Jerusalem as it is was built by us. I don't want horde of refugees swarming my parks just as much Americans wouldn't want millions of Mexicans swarming theirs.

Before Israel was founded there were several thousand Arabs living in a very primitive Jerusalem and many hundred of thousands still live in the eastern part of the city - I have no problem what so ever with them. For all I care they can build their nation in the eastern part of Jerusalem. The problem is that our leaders refuse to acknowledge such an act.

[AtomicSlug]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Jews BUY the land from the Arabs in what is now Israel long before they declared statehood? I mean there are still Kibbutzim all over Israel to this day. These were built on purchased land.

Another thing I want to say, in defense of the Palestinians this time: Any nation/state who confines a people to a small 3 mile wide strip of land and expect them to be happy about it is clearly not very righteous. Never mind the slaughter of innocent civilians in so-called "targeted attacks" on extremists. A Palestinian woman was quoted as saying that "A suicide bomber is a poor man's F-16". And while I am completely against suicide bombing and other forms of terrorism, I am also against air and ground attacks against civilians. Especially civilians whose weapons are merely rocks thrown at soldiers or police.

The absolute hatred between the Palestinians and Jews cannot be solved by military means, and may not even be possible by diplomatic means, especially now that Hamas has control over the Gaza Strip.

All sides have to give and take. Unfortunately, no side wants to really give, only take. There have just been way too many unacceptable offers and counter-offers, changes of governments and positions of those governments and other factors that make lasting peace almost, if not totally, impossible. I'm totally for a two-state solution, but I just don't see it happening in my lifetime. Shalom ve Selam? I really just don't see it happening.

[unriggable]

Jerusalem as it is was built by us. I don't want horde of refugees swarming my parks just as much Americans wouldn't want millions of Mexicans swarming theirs.

I thought you lived on Uranus.

[Aegnor]

Jerusalem as it is was built by us. I don't want horde of refugees swarming my parks just as much Americans wouldn't want millions of Mexicans swarming theirs.

I thought you lived on Uranus.

I wouldn't want any Arabs on Uranus.