What are your feelings on China's ban on Reincarnation

[Cronus]

I think communion is banned there, Catholic or otherwise.

It may or may not be, but I heard recently that they have the largest Christian population in the world now.

That is false. While the government claims that 16 million Chinese are Christian, it is estimated that between 40 million to 100 million. There estimated to be 300 million religious people in China but most of that is not Christian but Buddhist.
40 million figure
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6337627.stm
100 million figure
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/BibleStudyAndTheology/Discipleship/persecution_112702.aspx

This means the U.S.(228 million Christians) and Brazil (169 million Christians) both definitely have more Christians and possibly Mexico with 90 million Christians, the Phillipines with 80 million Christians, Nigeria which has 54 million Christians, Germany with 55 million, and Ethiopia with 46 million depending on what the true chinese number is between 40-100 million.

source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html
click on country and then population to find religious percentages and then extrapolate over whole population

[Cronus]

I think communion is banned there, Catholic or otherwise.

It may or may not be, but I heard recently that they have the largest Christian population in the world now.

It must be a very different christian population from the one in North America.

I have been told by people that have been there that their church is somewhat under ground as the penalty for practicing christianity or even possesing a bible can be death.

not true as long as your church has permission from the state. Condoleeza Rice attended a church ceremony in China when she visited there once ...last paragraph http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=2826

The only religion they seem hell bent on persecuting is Falun Gong, which really isn't even a religion.

[Skittles!]

What's Falun Gong?

[OnlyAmbrose]

Cronus, I'll be looking into Unam Sanctum sometime today, as it does seem to clash with the present Catholic belief. However, in the few minutes I have:

cronus you forgot one.

There is no savation outside the church

Since when is Mel Gibson in a position of authority in the Catholic Church?

Gibson is a very traditional Catholic and is not totally in line with Rome on a lot of issues. Citing him isn't really useful.

[Cronus]

What's Falun Gong?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_gong

[glide]

pssssst.......guess what my avatar is peein' on? (oh yoooooohoooo......father bad-touch....... )

Just thought I'd bring the lovely nuns and padres I mentioned earlier up again......I notice you casually avoided mentioning them god-boy...

[2dimes]

Cronus, I'll be looking into Unam Sanctum sometime today, as it does seem to clash with the present Catholic belief. However, in the few minutes I have:

cronus you forgot one.

There is no savation outside the church

Since when is Mel Gibson in a position of authority in the Catholic Church?

Gibson is a very traditional Catholic and is not totally in line with Rome on a lot of issues. Citing him isn't really useful.

So basically he made that up and was never told by someone else?

[OnlyAmbrose]

Cronus, I'll be looking into Unam Sanctum sometime today, as it does seem to clash with the present Catholic belief. However, in the few minutes I have:

cronus you forgot one.

There is no savation outside the church

Since when is Mel Gibson in a position of authority in the Catholic Church?

Gibson is a very traditional Catholic and is not totally in line with Rome on a lot of issues. Citing him isn't really useful.

So basically he made that up and was never told by someone else?

Well I'm not sure if he made it up, but you shouldn't be citing Mel Gibson for Catholic doctrine, because he isn't in line with all of it. And he's not a valid source of Catholic doctrine.

Anyways, in regards to the Unam Sanctum... from the Catechism of the Cahtolic Church:

Possible salvation of non-Christians: #s 846-848.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Protestants are considered saved through the Church through their water baptism, which, as I've stated many times before, is perfectly valid.

[OnlyAmbrose]

Just thought I'd bring the lovely nuns and padres I mentioned earlier up again......I notice you casually avoided mentioning them god-boy...

Do you understand how many times that has been brought up in this forum? And do you understand how much more of the civil manner it was brought up in?

I have all the respect in the world for skeptics such as vt, who are happy to have a civilized and rational debate, but individuals such as yourself really aren't such a pleasure to discuss this matter with. Please be a bit more polite and you'll find that you'll get much more direct answers. I hope vt would attest to that.

[2dimes]

I have been told by people that have been there that their church is somewhat under ground as the penalty for practicing christianity or even possesing a bible can be death.

not true as long as your church has permission from the state. Condoleeza Rice attended a church ceremony in China when she visited there once ...last paragraph http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=2826

Yes I suspect the person I talked to was making the whole thing up.

Thank you for refuting his story with a 'world wide press opportunity featuring a high ranking american official experiencing life in China just as any native would.'

Very compelling as the Communists would never use propaganda.

I guess getting permision from the state to do things there must be a simple process down at town hall.

cronus "One Church permit please."
Communist government official, "Here you go, 13 yen."

[2dimes]

Just thought I'd bring the lovely nuns and padres I mentioned earlier up again......I notice you casually avoided mentioning them god-boy...

Do you understand how many times that has been brought up in this forum? And do you understand how much more of the civil manner it was brought up in?

I have all the respect in the world for skeptics such as vt, who are happy to have a civilized and rational debate, but individuals such as yourself really aren't such a pleasure to discuss this matter with. Please be a bit more polite and you'll find that you'll get much more direct answers. I hope vt would attest to that.

Gaaaaaahhh!

Please rationally debate on the side for.

"Is it ok to have sexual relations of some sort with a young boy under your charge."

And... go!

[OnlyAmbrose]

Just thought I'd bring the lovely nuns and padres I mentioned earlier up again......I notice you casually avoided mentioning them god-boy...

Do you understand how many times that has been brought up in this forum? And do you understand how much more of the civil manner it was brought up in?

I have all the respect in the world for skeptics such as vt, who are happy to have a civilized and rational debate, but individuals such as yourself really aren't such a pleasure to discuss this matter with. Please be a bit more polite and you'll find that you'll get much more direct answers. I hope vt would attest to that.

Gaaaaaahhh!

Please rationally debate on the side for.

"Is it ok to have sexual relations of some sort with a young boy under your charge."

And... go!

Do you really think that's what my thoughts on the matter are?

[vtmarik]

I'm not helping him if he wants to be a jerk. He can grow his own tact.


The fault of the priests is not the fault of the Church. Nobody blames the NRA when someone gets shot, so why are you blaming the Catholic Church for the actions of sick individuals?

[2dimes]

I seriously can't even imagine what your thoughts are. Are you following Glide's statements at all?

Yes I agree he's being coarse about it but I honestly can't think of any other way to be.

I'll even go all out and let you off the hook with my Mel joke now that the tone is changing for me.

So go ahead and defend preists of any organisation preying on people worst of all children.

Maybe this is not really a catholic issue but there have been too many cases of those priests being members of the catholic church, followed by other members covering up for them for years.

Sorry if that's not pleasent enough but it makes me kind of angry.

[vtmarik]

I seriously can't even imagine what your thoughts are. Are you following Glide's statements at all?

Yes I agree he's being coarse about it but I honestly can't think of any other way to be.

I'll even go all out and let you off the hook with my Mel joke now that the tone is changing for me.

So go ahead and defend preists of any organisation preying on people worst of all children.

Maybe this is not really a catholic issue but there have been too many cases of those priests being members of the catholic church, followed by other members covering up for them for years.

Sorry if that's not pleasent enough but it makes me kind of angry.

Ok, so choosing to blame the sickos and not the organization they belong to is defending them?

Cops protect their own if one of them gets caught abusing his position or someone else, but we blame the individual not the entire industry.

[2dimes]

That last one was directed to Ambrose. Whom we seem to think I'm blaming instead of the persons involved.

The fault of the priests is not the fault of the Church. Nobody blames the NRA when someone gets shot, so why are you blaming the Catholic Church for the actions of sick individuals?

I'm not speaking for anyone else here.

I blame the Catholic Church for the following. Not doing enough in my opinion to prevent it, not alowing the public to know it happened, not removing the guilty people from their posistions until it comes to light very publicly years later.

Everytime it's exposed 15 years plus after it happens the official response seems like, "Oh, uh, yeah, that guy, well he was bad, sorry."

If a cop is protecting another cop who is a rapist I'm just as passionate against that.

The fault of the lynch mob is not the fault of the Clan. Nobody blames the NRA when someone gets shot, so why are you blaming the organisation for the actions of sick individuals?

[mandalorian2298]

That's impressive, but not as impressive as the Pope's abolition of Limbo. Catholicism F T W !!

Another hopeless misunderstanding of Catholic belief.

Firstly, the Pope certainly didn't "ban" or "dissolve" limbo. He formed a theological committee to study the matter of whether or not unborn infants can be saved even though they haven't been baptized. If they can, then we can assume they go to heaven, if not, then we can assume they go to limbo.

The committee agreed that there is "considerable hope" that unborn infants can achieve salvation. The Pope agreed. He did not issue a decree abolishing limbo or even belief in limbo. He just said that he agreed with the findings of these theological scholars.

So, far from abolishing anything, the Pope agreed that there is "considerable hope". And the media had a circus over the incident, causing individuals such as yourselves to grow in your misunderstanding of the Catholic Church.

Each time when an abortus is performed and the poor, innocent cells are flushed away; one priest should ritualy be killed so that he can serve as their advocat before God. I mean, it would be stupid to form a comittee which made such an important breaktrough in understanding God's will (I aplaud all the committee members. I can honestly say that I have absolutly no idea how they menaged to achieve that.) and to then do nothing with that knowledge. I would also suggest for these advocates to be chosen among the priests who are also pedophiles since a) they love children and b) they should be deserve to die. So it's killing two birds with one stone.

[Stopper]

Sheesh. It was just a joke.

[Cmdr. Peter]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20227400/site/newsweek/

In one of history's more absurd acts of totalitarianism, China has banned Buddhist monks in Tibet from reincarnating without government permission. According to a statement issued by the State Administration for Religious Affairs, the law, which goes into effect next month and strictly stipulates the procedures by which one is to reincarnate, is "an important move to institutionalize management of reincarnation."

Next thing you know, they are going to ban Jesus from transubstantiating into bread at communion and ban djini from the southwestern Islamic provinces of China.

At a glance, it's silly, but digging deeper, it's a nasty and clever way to justify religious persecution. If someone claims to be re-incarnated, you can simply clap him in irons and toss him in jail - after all, where's his permit? This is typical of communist governments. They generally don't outlaw religion outright, but instead they make it impractical to practice. For example, "sure, you can set up a temple/church/mosque/crystal pyramid or whatever to worship in. All you need is a permit."

"Oh. Did we mention that only 10 permits are allowed country-wide at any given time? And that the application costs $10 million each, non refundable? Well fancy that...I guess you didn't want to worship after all. We don't ban religion. Nope. Not us." !

Actually, my example above is silly, but the principle is the same. To use a real-life example, communist Russia had a rule that you could have a state-allowed place of worship if you:
1) registered with the state
2) received state approval (this might, for example, require a state-endorsed religious leader to be in charge)
3) didn't seek converts
4) didn't bring your children to church

I think nearly every point on that list would be a deal-breaker for any serious religious person. That's fine by the government, because having created the illusion of a state-endorsed church for the community to see, they can claim that the non-conformists are dissidents and need to be arrested. Very nasty, clever, and effective.

[OnlyAmbrose]

Not doing enough in my opinion to prevent it,

Are you aware that the percentage of pedophiles in the priesthood is less than the percentage of pedophiles in secular society?

As far as doing stuff to prevent it is concerned, I know for a fact that my diocese has mandatory annual seminars for teenagers (who are the most common targets for priest abuse) advising them on what to do and who to contact if a priest is making him/her uncomfortable. I don't know what kind of broad, greater actions are being taken, but that's the exposure to the subject that I have personally received. It's definitely not as if the issue is being ignored.

[2dimes]

Manditory seminar, so does that mean a problem might exist?

Are you aware that the percentage of pedophiles in the priesthood is less than the percentage of pedophiles in secular society?

I guess as long as the ratio is kept low, what's the harm?

[OnlyAmbrose]

Manditory seminar, so does that mean a problem might exist?

Did you pay any attention to what I posted? I said that those were the measures taken to the youth of my diocese. I have no idea what else is being done, but given that this is the biggest scandals and scars upon the reputation of the Church in recent history, I'm fairly certain we can rest assured that something is being done.

Are you aware that the percentage of pedophiles in the priesthood is less than the percentage of pedophiles in secular society?

I guess as long as the ratio is kept low, what's the harm?

I never said that a low ratio makes it ok. I'm saying that for all the bashing the church and, more specifically, the doctrine of clerical celibacy, is getting from this issue, you'd think it would be about as widespread of an issue as the media is making it. Fortunately, it's not so widespread. So I'll repeat: there is less of an instance of pedophilia in the clergy than in secular society.

[2dimes]

Well we can't very well say the whole church is doing something about is can we? Lets not credit them for what a good diocese is doing.

[umanouski]

I seriously can't even imagine what your thoughts are. Are you following Glide's statements at all?

Yes I agree he's being coarse about it but I honestly can't think of any other way to be.

I'll even go all out and let you off the hook with my Mel joke now that the tone is changing for me.

So go ahead and defend preists of any organisation preying on people worst of all children.

Maybe this is not really a catholic issue but there have been too many cases of those priests being members of the catholic church, followed by other members covering up for them for years.

Sorry if that's not pleasent enough but it makes me kind of angry.

Ok, so choosing to blame the sickos and not the organization they belong to is defending them?

Cops protect their own if one of them gets caught abusing his position or someone else, but we blame the individual not the entire industry.

I agree completely. If you do something sick, say what the priests did, you should be shunned from your organization. However, if your organization defends you, they should also take heat.

[muy_thaiguy]

Cronus, I am not attacking you, but, could you use some other source other then wikipedia for your main argument? It is just that I have come to see that wikipedia is not the most reliable site.