Your Top Five Military Leaders

[jusplay4fun]

----------------- Actually The Ram......Is correct........In the Beginning.....Hitler just wanted to Crush and make The Soviet Union part of The German Empire.....He did not war with the West....He nipped here and there to feel out the West to see how far he could go....He hated communists/The Soviet Union ,Germany and Italy help Franco of Spain,beat the Russian backed Spanish Commies,...Hitler wanted the vast resources of Russia....The oil fields he had his eye on ,were in The Caucasus....At the time war broke out... Germany got most of it's oil from Romania....Sure if Hitler would have waited for his Wonder Weapons...Who knows where the war would have gone....
--------------He had no interest in the Middle East at the start of war..... Mussolini dreamed of a New Roman Empire....That area was left to Italy...It was only after the British smashed The Italians....That Hitler had to send Rommel to bail Mussolini out....Rommel wasn't supposed to go on the offensive....Rommel went anyway...With lighting results...,The Afrika Korps lead by Rommel ,Pushed the British back,.Happy by Rommel's Success ....Hitler came up with a plan...Were Rommel would hit the Suez and the Middle East....Troops from Russia would drive South Through The Caucasus Region and Join up With Rommel in a Pincer move...We all know how that was another of Hitler's blunders...
-------------Hitler describe his own dream to conquer Russia In his own words in the 1920's.......As for WW2.....No one expected America to throw their hat in the ring...Or Japan to Attack America,everyone thought ,Japan would attack Russia if anyone...The War started in 1931 when Japan invaded Manchuria....Then in 1935 Italy Invaded Ethiopia...Germany began to take The Rhineland back in 1936...Then more unopposed....Stalin began to take land....He was stuffed by little Finland in the Fire and Ice war of 1940....Which Hitler saw a weak Russian Foe...not being able to knock off Finland.....Japan started WW2...in 1931 and it ended with Japan Sept 2nd 1945...
--------------As for Germany...Had the League of Nations stood up to Japan in 1931...The War could have been stopped....Had England and France Stood up to Hitler ,in 1936 when German troops the war could of been stopped....Had England,France,The League of Nations stood up to Italy in 1935...The war could have been stopped....But Germany had no plan to attack the West...until War we under way...Hitler was hoping to Attack Russia in the mid 1940's....England and France...doing nothing led to Poland 1939...Which is not the start of WW2....But the end of Hitler's plan to Conquer Russia in the mid 1940's....All in All..for the most part...The ram was right... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... ...

Most who know History know that an event rarely occurs in a "vacuum" but instead occurs because of recent and relevant events. Japan, Germany, and Italy wanted to expand and that meant, ultimately, to conquer other nations and peoples and to WAR.

The actual start of WW2 is NOT that important to me, and yes, those events ConfSS cited did lead up to (and could, in a stretch, be included as "part" of) WW2.

Most consider the start of WW2 as the invasion of Poland in 1939 where MANY nations got involved. Until then, it was mostly a "bully' nation, i.e., Germany, Italy, or Japan, invading one smaller and/or weaker nation.

So ConfSS, I do not agree with your opinion.

And you could use better punctuation to better express your opinions and make your ideas more lucid. This specific opinion of yours makes no sense to me; I cannot follow you and this is not coherent:

Which is not the start of WW2....But the end of Hitler's plan to Conquer Russia in the mid 1940's.

[The ram]

Info on ‘living space’

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

from the source cited here by HR:

Hitler's strategic program for world domination was based on the belief in the power of Lebensraum, especially when pursued by a racially superior society.[7] People deemed to be part of non-Aryan races, within the territory of Lebensraum expansion, were subjected to expulsion or destruction.[7] The eugenics of Lebensraum assumed the right of the German Aryan master race (Herrenvolk) to remove indigenous people in the name of their own living space.

here is the opening part of the same source:

The German concept of Lebensraum (German pronunciation: [ˈleːbənsˌʁaʊm] (About this soundlisten), "living space") comprises policies and practices of settler colonialism which proliferated in Germany from the 1890s to the 1940s. First popularized around 1901,[2] Lebensraum became a geopolitical goal of Imperial Germany in World War I (1914–1918) originally, as the core element of the Septemberprogramm of territorial expansion.[3] The most extreme form of this ideology was supported by the Nazi Party (NSDAP) and Nazi Germany until the end of World War II.[4]

Following Adolf Hitler's rise to power, Lebensraum became an ideological principle of Nazism and provided justification for the German territorial expansion into Central and Eastern Europe.[5] The Nazi Generalplan Ost policy ('Master Plan for the East') was based on its tenets. It stipulated that Germany required a Lebensraum necessary for its survival and that most of the indigenous populations of Central and Eastern Europe would have to be removed permanently (either through mass deportation to Siberia, extermination, or enslavement) including Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Czech and other Slavic nations considered non-Aryan. The Nazi government aimed at repopulating these lands with Germanic colonists in the name of Lebensraum during World War II and thereafter.[6][7][8][9] Entire indigenous populations were decimated by starvation, allowing for their own agricultural surplus to feed Germany.[6]

If dominance and take over of Slavic lands and nations was the primary goal, why attack France and the Low Countries?

AND Hitler and the Nazis STARVED many people (as did Stalin of Ukrainians). Hitler (et al) starved about 3 million of the some 5 million Russian/Soviet POWs. And of course the war caused the death of many Russian civilians, many by starvation. The starvation was part of the strategy to dominate and resettle the those lands with Germans. And we know of the Holocaust. Hitler had to be stopped and DEFEATED for the sake of many in Europe and the rest of the world.

regarding the war between Germany and USSR in WW2:

The operation opened up the Eastern Front, in which more forces were committed than in any other theater of war in history. The area saw some of the world's largest battles, most horrific atrocities, and highest casualties (for Soviet and Axis forces alike), all of which influenced the course of World War II and the subsequent history of the 20th century. The German armies eventually captured some five million Soviet Red Army troops.[26] The Nazis deliberately starved to death or otherwise killed 3.3 million Soviet prisoners of war, and a vast number of civilians, as the "Hunger Plan" worked to solve German food shortages and exterminate the Slavic population through starvation.[27] Mass shootings and gassing operations, carried out by the Nazis or willing collaborators,[g] murdered over a million Soviet Jews as part of the Holocaust.[29]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa#cite_note-FOOTNOTESnyder2010175%E2%80%93186-33

I agree that Rommel went to North Africa to bail out Mussolini and the Italians. I had not read of the POSSIBLE goal of taking Middle East oil fields until recently. Of course, most of what I read about WW2 is from the American, and likely, too, the British perspectives.

Whether Hitler intended World or European or "only" central and eastern European domination does not really make a big difference to me. Hitler had to be defeated. Until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the US had no MAJOR reason to go to war. Yes, FDR did Lend-Lease for Britain, but Hitler did not go after US Shipping in the Atlantic BIG TIME until after Pearl Harbor.

So apparently I quote facts and The Ram can only quote or spout opinions.

And ConfSS agrees with those opinions? Does he therefore ignore facts?

Hitler never wanted a war with Britain. How could he achieved world domination without engaging in war with an empire spanning the world?

If you think that Hitler invading western Europe was him enacting his lebensraum policy, that's your opinion. Myself, I'd say once Britain and France declared war, he had to strategically take the west to stop British forces building on his doorstep. That's reality, not conjecture!

I do believe that he would have invaded Russia had he been allowed to settle and build, but again, that's only my opinion.

[jusplay4fun]

Info on ‘living space’

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

from the source cited here by HR:

Hitler's strategic program for world domination was based on the belief in the power of Lebensraum, especially when pursued by a racially superior society.[7] People deemed to be part of non-Aryan races, within the territory of Lebensraum expansion, were subjected to expulsion or destruction.[7] The eugenics of Lebensraum assumed the right of the German Aryan master race (Herrenvolk) to remove indigenous people in the name of their own living space.

here is the opening part of the same source:

The German concept of Lebensraum (German pronunciation: [ˈleːbənsˌʁaʊm] (About this soundlisten), "living space") comprises policies and practices of settler colonialism which proliferated in Germany from the 1890s to the 1940s. First popularized around 1901,[2] Lebensraum became a geopolitical goal of Imperial Germany in World War I (1914–1918) originally, as the core element of the Septemberprogramm of territorial expansion.[3] The most extreme form of this ideology was supported by the Nazi Party (NSDAP) and Nazi Germany until the end of World War II.[4]

Following Adolf Hitler's rise to power, Lebensraum became an ideological principle of Nazism and provided justification for the German territorial expansion into Central and Eastern Europe.[5] The Nazi Generalplan Ost policy ('Master Plan for the East') was based on its tenets. It stipulated that Germany required a Lebensraum necessary for its survival and that most of the indigenous populations of Central and Eastern Europe would have to be removed permanently (either through mass deportation to Siberia, extermination, or enslavement) including Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Czech and other Slavic nations considered non-Aryan. The Nazi government aimed at repopulating these lands with Germanic colonists in the name of Lebensraum during World War II and thereafter.[6][7][8][9] Entire indigenous populations were decimated by starvation, allowing for their own agricultural surplus to feed Germany.[6]

If dominance and take over of Slavic lands and nations was the primary goal, why attack France and the Low Countries?

AND Hitler and the Nazis STARVED many people (as did Stalin of Ukrainians). Hitler (et al) starved about 3 million of the some 5 million Russian/Soviet POWs. And of course the war caused the death of many Russian civilians, many by starvation. The starvation was part of the strategy to dominate and resettle the those lands with Germans. And we know of the Holocaust. Hitler had to be stopped and DEFEATED for the sake of many in Europe and the rest of the world.

regarding the war between Germany and USSR in WW2:

The operation opened up the Eastern Front, in which more forces were committed than in any other theater of war in history. The area saw some of the world's largest battles, most horrific atrocities, and highest casualties (for Soviet and Axis forces alike), all of which influenced the course of World War II and the subsequent history of the 20th century. The German armies eventually captured some five million Soviet Red Army troops.[26] The Nazis deliberately starved to death or otherwise killed 3.3 million Soviet prisoners of war, and a vast number of civilians, as the "Hunger Plan" worked to solve German food shortages and exterminate the Slavic population through starvation.[27] Mass shootings and gassing operations, carried out by the Nazis or willing collaborators,[g] murdered over a million Soviet Jews as part of the Holocaust.[29]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa#cite_note-FOOTNOTESnyder2010175%E2%80%93186-33

I agree that Rommel went to North Africa to bail out Mussolini and the Italians. I had not read of the POSSIBLE goal of taking Middle East oil fields until recently. Of course, most of what I read about WW2 is from the American, and likely, too, the British perspectives.

Whether Hitler intended World or European or "only" central and eastern European domination does not really make a big difference to me. Hitler had to be defeated. Until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the US had no MAJOR reason to go to war. Yes, FDR did Lend-Lease for Britain, but Hitler did not go after US Shipping in the Atlantic BIG TIME until after Pearl Harbor.

So apparently I quote facts and The Ram can only quote or spout opinions.

And ConfSS agrees with those opinions? Does he therefore ignore facts?

Hitler never wanted a war with Britain. How could he achieved world domination without engaging in war with an empire spanning the world?

If you think that Hitler invading western Europe was him enacting his lebensraum policy, that's your opinion. Myself, I'd say once Britain and France declared war, he had to strategically take the west to stop British forces building on his doorstep. That's reality, not conjecture!

I do believe that he would have invaded Russia had he been allowed to settle and build, but again, that's only my opinion.

FACT: He (Hitler) DID invade Russia (USSR). Did you mean CONQUER Russia, not INVADE?

JusPlay

[ConfederateSS]

-----------I was pointing out The books you read.....Hitler had no plan to take the Middle East,That was for Italy to take....but The British mad Italy look like a 1st grader fighting a 12th grader....Stopped Italy in Africa,The Balkans,most important...Greece...Hitler was planning to invade The Soviet Union in May 1941...But had to divert troops to Greece and the Balkans...After having to send troops to North Africa led by Rommel in Feb.1941...This delay...cost Germany a few months...Had Hitler invaded in May....His tanks would have reached their objectives earlier...Not stuck in the mud in Sept/Oct...or snow in Nov...Outside Moscow in Dec....When Japan hit the USA.... Allowing Russian troops guarding against a Japanese attack...to head for Moscow.....If Italy takes Greece and Suez...Those Germany troops Conquer Russia by August 1941....
---------Like Hitler said himself...His goal was Russia from the start.....He didn't want war with the west....He didn't want the Middle East oil fields in the beginning.....But as Power Corrupts,and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.....Yes,they were bullies....The Axis Powers......If someone would have punched them in the nose early on...They would have backed down.....Another part of when they say WW2 started ...As far as Poland 1939 goes....It is always Germany,as we all know...It was also Russia.....who invaded Poland....1939.....The 2 should be said together...Germany and Russia invaded Poland 1939....
------------More importantly...as far as what has been going on in the world the last 2 years...I think it is important who and when World War 2 started and where.....As I am always going to defend HISTORY....An Asian country is attacked in 1931 no one cares...An African country is attacked in 1935 no one cares....But Poland in 1939 is attacked...BOOM...Stop the world...Now it matters....Now a War is on....As I hate the Left trying to rewrite History as far as They do....This is one point of History that should be told...I think,when they tell that part,Asia,Africa didn't matter to them,it was only When A European Country was blasted...Now WW2 is on...That is sad.. ...So it does matter to say when World War 2 started...Who started it...give credit ,to who started it...If we notice when things like that start early...They can be stopped...Before we get to a WW3 place...That is why it is important...I know the Victors write the history who wins,but YIKES...Both sides should always be told correctly!!! ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... ...Not to Mention...It wasn't England,It wasn't The USA who had the best navy in the World in 1930s/40s...It was the Empire of Japan...The West didn't pay attention and looked down on them because they were Asian...Even after they had already smashed The Russians in the Russian/Japan war of 1905....Today the West does the Same With CHINA....Even when Nixon warned us of CHINA in the 1970s...Not to mention,CHINA has stuffed the USA 2 times already in Korea and Vietnam...Yet ,The USA still ignores CHINA...Maybe if Japan was respected in the past and given credit...CHINA wouldn't be a problem Today....

[jusplay4fun]

-----------I was pointing out The books you read.....Hitler had no plan to take the Middle East,That was for Italy to take....but The British mad Italy look like a 1st grader fighting a 12th grader....Stopped Italy in Africa,The Balkans,most important...Greece...Hitler was planning to invade The Soviet Union in May 1941...But had to divert troops to Greece and the Balkans...After having to send troops to North Africa led by Rommel in Feb.1941...This delay...cost Germany a few months...Had Hitler invaded in May....His tanks would have reached their objectives earlier...Not stuck in the mud in Sept/Oct...or snow in Nov...Outside Moscow in Dec....When Japan hit the USA.... Allowing Russian troops guarding against a Japanese attack...to head for Moscow.....If Italy takes Greece and Suez...Those Germany troops Conquer Russia by August 1941....
---------Like Hitler said himself...His goal was Russia from the start.....He didn't want war with the west....He didn't want the Middle East oil fields in the beginning.....But as Power Corrupts,and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.....Yes,they were bullies....The Axis Powers......If someone would have punched them in the nose early on...They would have backed down.....Another part of when they say WW2 started ...As far as Poland 1939 goes....It is always Germany,as we all know...It was also Russia.....who invaded Poland....1939.....The 2 should be said together...Germany and Russia invaded Poland 1939....
------------More importantly...as far as what has been going on in the world the last 2 years...I think it is important who and when World War 2 started and where.....As I am always going to defend HISTORY....An Asian country is attacked in 1931 no one cares...An African country is attacked in 1935 no one cares....But Poland in 1939 is attacked...BOOM...Stop the world...Now it matters....Now a War is on....As I hate the Left trying to rewrite History as far as They do....This is one point of History that should be told...I think,when they tell that part,Asia,Africa didn't matter to them,it was only When A European Country was blasted...Now WW2 is on...That is sad.. ...So it does matter to say when World War 2 started...Who started it...give credit ,to who started it...If we notice when things like that start early...They can be stopped...Before we get to a WW3 place...That is why it is important...I know the Victors write the history who wins,but YIKES...Both sides should always be told correctly!!! ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... ...Not to Mention...It wasn't England,It wasn't The USA who had the best navy in the World in 1930s/40s...It was the Empire of Japan...The West didn't pay attention and looked down on them because they were Asian...Even after they had already smashed The Russians in the Russian/Japan war of 1905....Today the West does the Same With CHINA....Even when Nixon warned us of CHINA in the 1970s...Not to mention,CHINA has stuffed the USA 2 times already in Korea and Vietnam...Yet ,The USA still ignores CHINA...Maybe if Japan was respected in the past and given credit...CHINA wouldn't be a problem Today....

I think that you basically are making three points, one for each paragraph. The point (#3) about today and rewriting history, I will save for another time. As I said, that exact date of the start of the war is not that important to me**. However, your analysis, though partly correct, ignores some key points. AND the USA is NOT ignoring China. I have a nephew NOW an officer in the US Marines and he will disagree with you on that one point.

Point 1: Germany could have conquered or defeated USSR, Russia. Maybe. But as Napoleon, your hero, learned, Russia is a vast country with vast resources. And Hitler had major flaws as a Military leader. BUT all that is speculation and a matter of opinion. That can be debated, but I do not wish to do so at this time.

Point 2: Yes, I know that Poland was invaded by both powers (Germany and Russia). I was and am well aware of that. Note that I did NOT say the Poland was invaded by Germany, but that the invasion of Poland was the start of WW2. You have a valid point about Europeans ignoring invasions of other nations (Africa and Asia). But that is like the US ignoring a war in Africa, but is concerned about Nicaragua or Panama or Grenada in the Western Hemisphere. The USA did go in those places to deal with what was perceived as security issues. I am not sure going after Noriega in Panama was totally justified. Iran-Contra under Reagan? somewhat controversial. I cannot recall the reasons for Grenada, other than a few medical students from the US under some threat. Maybe my memory of ALL that is foggy. IDK.

BUT you forget three key points regarding Poland. A) It is in Europe and that does and should concern Europeans. (The same can be said about Ukraine today, but I do not have an answer of what NATO is to do if Ukraine is invaded by Russia. Another thread, another time.) B) The West (France and Britain/UK) did begin to realize (in 1939) that Hitler had to be stopped SOON or he will bully more nations. This time it is a fighting war and not just troops sent into a region with some German speaking people. And C) There were treaties involved regarding Poland and there is still some value to some treaties. I am unaware of a treaty saying France must protect Ethiopia or that Britain must come to the aid of China (and all the permutations of those scenarios).

This is a side point, perhaps, but I am not sure what France and Britain could/should have done to stop WW2 before it began. I really see no serious alternative to war to stop him. Hitler had built a war machine with new technology and massive spending there. He tested some new weapons in Spain. He had Germany ready for the war. He JUS took too many bites of too many apples, and, as you said,

Power Corrupts,and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely

**And lastly, those events you cited did lead up to WW2. (I now think the date of the start is important from this perspective). AND I am not ignoring or rewriting History. The The real fighting between MANY NATIONS, however, began with the INVASION of Poland, IMO. Once Poland was invaded, that is when formal declarations of war began. WW2 is called a World War for a reason, partly due to SO MANY NATIONS involved in fighting. (WW1 was limited when you compare the two wars from a strict geographic point of view.) ALL you examples, as I recall, involved ONE nation invading ONE other nation and LITTLE to NO involvement by other nations. Poland is MUCH different. THUS, the invasion of Poland is the start of WW2, as most history books have it. To summarize, you make a few valid points, but ignore others in your analysis, so I think you are ultimately WRONG.

[jusplay4fun]

On another related topic, germane to the Title of this thread:

I know that Sun-Tzu may not be ONE person or one general and there is speculation that his “book” is a compilation of the work of several people. But the understanding of the Art and Nature of War expressed in these writings are very profound and very succinct.

They cover a huge range of war, from tactics to propaganda to understanding the enemy.

Here are a few of my favorite quotes attributed to Sun Tzu:

If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles.

To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

Know thy self, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories.

Secret operations are essential in war; upon them the army relies to make its every move.

It is essential to seek out enemy agents who have come to conduct espionage against you and to bribe them to serve you. Give them instructions and care for them. Thus doubled agents are recruited and used.

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/sun_tzu_391328

Read more at https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/sun-tzu-quotes

[ConfederateSS]

---------The Point I was making was....Japan was ignored, because it was not a WHITE county,the European and The USA underestimated their ASIAN rival....Because of that fact...The History books reflect that...Like I said..JAPAN had the best Navy in the World at the onset of WW2.....Japan went on to Conquer an Empire ,3 times that of Germany in World War 2.....Yet,History books main Focus is always on Hitler and Germany...As for China...Of Today...Yes,I am sure regular military personnel...are aware of China...But the Pentagon...and our top Leaders of The LEFT,who are now pouring into the military at all levels...Are selling out America to China....Ignoring China as they,and they alone profit...
----------CHINA has even stated that over the next 15 years...They are taking over the World...Just like Hitler said...No, not what it literally means....But through influence and Economically....Which they are already in their way....They have taken over 3rd World Countries financially...Even here in the USA their grip is tightening...As they also corrupt or Universities across America...As our leaders turn a blind eye for profit... America is getting so weak...We couldn't even win a war against Grenada again...Let alone CHINA... ...... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... ...Many regular military personnel are sick of what is happening to our armed forces...They are leaving... Turning our defense over to Radical thinkers and ,Yes,Commies/Marxists...

[ConfederateSS]

--------My favorite part of Sun Tzu book is the part of deception...As 100,000 men...He has them lite fewer campfires each night...So The enemy thinks there are less and less men every night...Attack and find ,The Total Army is there....Awesome.....Much like in WW2...Rommel "The Desert Fox"....Was outnumbered in tanks ...He had only 30 workable Tanks....The British had 250 tanks....Rommel to 500 Votzwagons and had Tank cut outs put on top of them... Attacked The British...Got the British to turn and run...You have to love deception... ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... ...Just like that Confederate Major I spoke of in another thread who only had 5,000 men... Against a force 12 times greater across the river/creek....March his men in a circle around an opening in a wall structure...Keeping the Union from attacking...Making them think that was the Whole Confederate Army.... Allowing 50,000 Confederate Troops to reinforce his position.... ....I don't know his name...But it is in the documentary...Ken Burns did in 1990...

[jusplay4fun]

---------The Point I was making was....Japan was ignored, because it was not a WHITE county,the European and The USA underestimated their ASIAN rival....Because of that fact...The History books reflect that...Like I said..JAPAN had the best Navy in the World at the onset of WW2.....Japan went on to Conquer an Empire ,3 times that of Germany in World War 2.....Yet,History books main Focus is always on Hitler and Germany...As for China...Of Today...Yes,I am sure regular military personnel...are aware of China...But the Pentagon...and our top Leaders of The LEFT,who are now pouring into the military at all levels...Are selling out America to China....Ignoring China as they,and they alone profit...
----------CHINA has even stated that over the next 15 years...They are taking over the World...Just like Hitler said...No, not what it literally means....But through influence and Economically....Which they are already in their way....They have taken over 3rd World Countries financially...Even here in the USA their grip is tightening...As they also corrupt or Universities across America...As our leaders turn a blind eye for profit... America is getting so weak...We couldn't even win a war against Grenada again...Let alone CHINA... ...... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... ...Many regular military personnel are sick of what is happening to our armed forces...They are leaving... Turning our defense over to Radical thinkers and ,Yes,Commies/Marxists...

A few responses: ConfSS typed:

Japan went on to Conquer an Empire ,3 times that of Germany in World War 2

Do you mean they conquered China? NOT quite. The Japanese took over Manchuria, and captured Beijing, but never really defeated the Chinese. That is like saying the Nazis beat the Russians in WW2. Did you forget that Chiang Kai-shek led a Chinese resistance to the Japanese, and for some time, there was a truce between the Communists under Mao and the Nationalists under Chiang Kai-shek to defeat the Japanese invaders?

ConfSS typed:

Japan was ignored, because it was not a WHITE county,the European and The USA underestimated their ASIAN rival....Because of that fact...The History books reflect that

I think you overstate the ignoring of the Asian theatre of war. I have been well aware of the 2 stage war effort by the US for a long time and that FDR and Churchill decided to defeat Germany and Italy FIRST before then turning resources vs. Japan. But the US did "Island Hopping" with its Navy and Marines and gradually beat the Japanese, without massive troop transferred from the European theatre. An invasion of the Japanese Mainland would have required massive troop movement from Europe and the support of the Soviet Union, too. The A-bombs rendered that scenario unnecessary. The Battle of Midway and the battle of Guadalcanal, and many more such battles point to the fact that JAPAN was NOT IGNORED. The two battles I reference occurred in 1942, less than one year after the attack on Pearl Harbor and demonstrate, rather cogently, that Japan was NOT ignored. AND the USA did Lend-Lease to China, too, as they did for Britain.

IF you want, I can cite these sources, but these battles are well known to those who have read about and are students of WW2. I think I have a good working knowledge of WW2 (from the American perspective, of course) without having to rely on internet sources. I use the sources to support my points and to provide specific details, such as specific dates that I do not recall.

One last point, for now: Douglas MacArthur was evacuated from the Philippines for him to fight another day, NOT as a sign of IGNORING Japan.

The Battle of Midway was a major naval battle in the Pacific Theater of World War II that took place on 4–7 June 1942, six months after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor

The Guadalcanal campaign, also known as the Battle of Guadalcanal and codenamed Operation Watchtower by American forces, was a military campaign fought between 7 August 1942 and 9 February 1943 on and around the island of Guadalcanal in the Pacific theater of World War II. It was the first major land offensive by Allied forces against the Empire of Japan.

Now I do agree with some of your other points, and others are opinions that cannot be proved or disproved. Some can be called value judgements, that are not subject to a win/loss evaluation.

[HitRed]

It’s clear to me with less patriotism, more America is bad evil racist, the chances of espionage from the inside increase.

[jusplay4fun]

It’s clear to me with less patriotism, more America is bad evil racist, the chances of espionage from the inside increase.

I offer the opinion that there is some truth to this notion. Many of those now elected to public office are openly socialists who "entertain" extremist ideas that are repugnant to those who fought in WWII for the USA.

[riskllama]

didn't Drumph get a deferment for "bone spurs"? sounds legit...

[HitRed]

Llama is woke or atheism a bigger threat in Canada?

[jusplay4fun]

I will list my (current) Top Five military leaders of all times, as inspired by ConfSS. You can list them in order and you can give your rationale, if you wish. You can even name your Top Ten, but let's not go crazy and name 100 or even 50. THAT is TOO MUCH to read and my pea brain cannot count past 10.

My main criteria is their impact on history and not necessarily on brilliant strategies or use of new technologies. (Note the addition of necessarily to the criteria on 5/7/21.)

But JUS to get this ball rolling, here is my Top FIve, in no specific order:

Genghis Khan,
Alexander the Great,
Napoleon,
Attila the Hun, and
Julius Caesar.

JP

Let me offer some info on Julius Caesar to support my inclusion of him on my list:

He was simply a BADASS. He builds a bridge across the Rhine and beats up the Germanic tribesman who watched his troops build this massive bridge. After doing major damage, he withdraws his troops and they disassemble that same bridge, leaving the Germans asking "what happened?" They felt the Rhine River kept them safe from the Romans and Caesar said NO WAY.

He also conquered Gaul and put troops in Britain. And yes, he was a good publicist, telling of his conquest in his own words in
Commentaries on the Gallic War

And he has that great phrase: veni vidi vici, I came, I saw, and I conquered. What a great (and succinct) statement for a great General.

And he did cross the Rubicon, a phrase that still resonates with belligerent intent.

And look at all the social reforms he did (see below), once he became the Czar or dictator. (Czar is used in American politics way too much, and often these guys have no real power, like the Drug Czars in recent years, but I digress......)

And the Russian title Tsar come from his name.

Here is more from Wikipedia:

Gaius Julius Caesar (Latin: [ˈɡaːiʊs ˈjuːliʊs ˈkae̯sar]; 12 July 100 BC – 15 March 44 BC) was a Roman general and statesman who played a critical role in the events that led to the demise of the Roman Republic and the rise of the Roman Empire.

In 60 BC, Caesar, Crassus and Pompey formed the First Triumvirate, a political alliance that dominated Roman politics for several years. Their attempts to amass power as Populares were opposed by the Optimates within the Roman Senate, among them Cato the Younger with the frequent support of Cicero. Caesar rose to become one of the most powerful politicians in the Roman Republic through a string of military victories in the Gallic Wars, completed by 51 BC, which greatly extended Roman territory. During this time he both invaded Britain and built a bridge across the Rhine river. These achievements and the support of his veteran army threatened to eclipse the standing of Pompey, who had realigned himself with the Senate after the death of Crassus in 53 BC. With the Gallic Wars concluded, the Senate ordered Caesar to step down from his military command and return to Rome. Leaving his command in Gaul would mean losing his immunity to criminal prosecution by his enemies; knowing this, Caesar openly defied the Senate's authority by crossing the Rubicon and marching towards Rome at the head of an army.[2] This began Caesar's civil war, which he won, leaving him in a position of near unchallenged power and influence.

After assuming control of government, Caesar began a program of social and governmental reforms, including the creation of the Julian calendar. He gave citizenship to many residents of far regions of the Roman Republic. He initiated land reform and support for veterans. He centralized the bureaucracy of the Republic and was eventually proclaimed "dictator for life" (Latin: dictator perpetuo). His populist and authoritarian reforms angered the elites, who began to conspire against him. On the Ides of March (15 March), 44 BC, Caesar was assassinated by a group of rebellious senators led by Brutus and Cassius, who stabbed him to death.[3][4] A new series of civil wars broke out and the constitutional government of the Republic was never fully restored. Caesar's great-nephew and adopted heir Octavian, later known as Augustus, rose to sole power after defeating his opponents in a civil war. Octavian set about solidifying his power, and the era of the Roman Empire began.

[riskllama]

well, i'm currently awake right now - i usually go to bed around midnight.

[jusplay4fun]

didn't Drumph get a deferment for "bone spurs"? sounds legit...

Is Trump your only nomination for Top Five Military Leader, Llama? sounds NOT legit, in many ways.

[riskllama]

i agree, Drumph would have been a terrible military leader & is not legit in many ways.

[jusplay4fun]

i agree, Drumph would have been a terrible military leader & is not legit in many ways.

I think you want to post that in one of Saxi's threads.

[The ram]

Info on ‘living space’

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

from the source cited here by HR:

Hitler's strategic program for world domination was based on the belief in the power of Lebensraum, especially when pursued by a racially superior society.[7] People deemed to be part of non-Aryan races, within the territory of Lebensraum expansion, were subjected to expulsion or destruction.[7] The eugenics of Lebensraum assumed the right of the German Aryan master race (Herrenvolk) to remove indigenous people in the name of their own living space.

here is the opening part of the same source:

The German concept of Lebensraum (German pronunciation: [ˈleːbənsˌʁaʊm] (About this soundlisten), "living space") comprises policies and practices of settler colonialism which proliferated in Germany from the 1890s to the 1940s. First popularized around 1901,[2] Lebensraum became a geopolitical goal of Imperial Germany in World War I (1914–1918) originally, as the core element of the Septemberprogramm of territorial expansion.[3] The most extreme form of this ideology was supported by the Nazi Party (NSDAP) and Nazi Germany until the end of World War II.[4]

Following Adolf Hitler's rise to power, Lebensraum became an ideological principle of Nazism and provided justification for the German territorial expansion into Central and Eastern Europe.[5] The Nazi Generalplan Ost policy ('Master Plan for the East') was based on its tenets. It stipulated that Germany required a Lebensraum necessary for its survival and that most of the indigenous populations of Central and Eastern Europe would have to be removed permanently (either through mass deportation to Siberia, extermination, or enslavement) including Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Czech and other Slavic nations considered non-Aryan. The Nazi government aimed at repopulating these lands with Germanic colonists in the name of Lebensraum during World War II and thereafter.[6][7][8][9] Entire indigenous populations were decimated by starvation, allowing for their own agricultural surplus to feed Germany.[6]

If dominance and take over of Slavic lands and nations was the primary goal, why attack France and the Low Countries?

AND Hitler and the Nazis STARVED many people (as did Stalin of Ukrainians). Hitler (et al) starved about 3 million of the some 5 million Russian/Soviet POWs. And of course the war caused the death of many Russian civilians, many by starvation. The starvation was part of the strategy to dominate and resettle the those lands with Germans. And we know of the Holocaust. Hitler had to be stopped and DEFEATED for the sake of many in Europe and the rest of the world.

regarding the war between Germany and USSR in WW2:

The operation opened up the Eastern Front, in which more forces were committed than in any other theater of war in history. The area saw some of the world's largest battles, most horrific atrocities, and highest casualties (for Soviet and Axis forces alike), all of which influenced the course of World War II and the subsequent history of the 20th century. The German armies eventually captured some five million Soviet Red Army troops.[26] The Nazis deliberately starved to death or otherwise killed 3.3 million Soviet prisoners of war, and a vast number of civilians, as the "Hunger Plan" worked to solve German food shortages and exterminate the Slavic population through starvation.[27] Mass shootings and gassing operations, carried out by the Nazis or willing collaborators,[g] murdered over a million Soviet Jews as part of the Holocaust.[29]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa#cite_note-FOOTNOTESnyder2010175%E2%80%93186-33

I agree that Rommel went to North Africa to bail out Mussolini and the Italians. I had not read of the POSSIBLE goal of taking Middle East oil fields until recently. Of course, most of what I read about WW2 is from the American, and likely, too, the British perspectives.

Whether Hitler intended World or European or "only" central and eastern European domination does not really make a big difference to me. Hitler had to be defeated. Until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the US had no MAJOR reason to go to war. Yes, FDR did Lend-Lease for Britain, but Hitler did not go after US Shipping in the Atlantic BIG TIME until after Pearl Harbor.

So apparently I quote facts and The Ram can only quote or spout opinions.

And ConfSS agrees with those opinions? Does he therefore ignore facts?

Hitler never wanted a war with Britain. How could he achieved world domination without engaging in war with an empire spanning the world?

If you think that Hitler invading western Europe was him enacting his lebensraum policy, that's your opinion. Myself, I'd say once Britain and France declared war, he had to strategically take the west to stop British forces building on his doorstep. That's reality, not conjecture!

I do believe that he would have invaded Russia had he been allowed to settle and build, but again, that's only my opinion.

FACT: He (Hitler) DID invade Russia (USSR). Did you mean CONQUER Russia, not INVADE?

JusPlay

That is certainly a fact but I was under the impression that we were discussing what the nazi's would have done had war not been declared against them. Anyway, back on topic

1 Alexander the great
2 Admiral Lord Nelson
3 Rommel
4 Napoleon
5 Richard the lionheart

[jusplay4fun]

Info on ‘living space’

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

from the source cited here by HR:

Hitler's strategic program for world domination was based on the belief in the power of Lebensraum, especially when pursued by a racially superior society.[7] People deemed to be part of non-Aryan races, within the territory of Lebensraum expansion, were subjected to expulsion or destruction.[7] The eugenics of Lebensraum assumed the right of the German Aryan master race (Herrenvolk) to remove indigenous people in the name of their own living space.

here is the opening part of the same source:

The German concept of Lebensraum (German pronunciation: [ˈleːbənsˌʁaʊm] (About this soundlisten), "living space") comprises policies and practices of settler colonialism which proliferated in Germany from the 1890s to the 1940s. First popularized around 1901,[2] Lebensraum became a geopolitical goal of Imperial Germany in World War I (1914–1918) originally, as the core element of the Septemberprogramm of territorial expansion.[3] The most extreme form of this ideology was supported by the Nazi Party (NSDAP) and Nazi Germany until the end of World War II.[4]

Following Adolf Hitler's rise to power, Lebensraum became an ideological principle of Nazism and provided justification for the German territorial expansion into Central and Eastern Europe.[5] The Nazi Generalplan Ost policy ('Master Plan for the East') was based on its tenets. It stipulated that Germany required a Lebensraum necessary for its survival and that most of the indigenous populations of Central and Eastern Europe would have to be removed permanently (either through mass deportation to Siberia, extermination, or enslavement) including Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Czech and other Slavic nations considered non-Aryan. The Nazi government aimed at repopulating these lands with Germanic colonists in the name of Lebensraum during World War II and thereafter.[6][7][8][9] Entire indigenous populations were decimated by starvation, allowing for their own agricultural surplus to feed Germany.[6]

If dominance and take over of Slavic lands and nations was the primary goal, why attack France and the Low Countries?

AND Hitler and the Nazis STARVED many people (as did Stalin of Ukrainians). Hitler (et al) starved about 3 million of the some 5 million Russian/Soviet POWs. And of course the war caused the death of many Russian civilians, many by starvation. The starvation was part of the strategy to dominate and resettle the those lands with Germans. And we know of the Holocaust. Hitler had to be stopped and DEFEATED for the sake of many in Europe and the rest of the world.

regarding the war between Germany and USSR in WW2:

The operation opened up the Eastern Front, in which more forces were committed than in any other theater of war in history. The area saw some of the world's largest battles, most horrific atrocities, and highest casualties (for Soviet and Axis forces alike), all of which influenced the course of World War II and the subsequent history of the 20th century. The German armies eventually captured some five million Soviet Red Army troops.[26] The Nazis deliberately starved to death or otherwise killed 3.3 million Soviet prisoners of war, and a vast number of civilians, as the "Hunger Plan" worked to solve German food shortages and exterminate the Slavic population through starvation.[27] Mass shootings and gassing operations, carried out by the Nazis or willing collaborators,[g] murdered over a million Soviet Jews as part of the Holocaust.[29]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa#cite_note-FOOTNOTESnyder2010175%E2%80%93186-33

I agree that Rommel went to North Africa to bail out Mussolini and the Italians. I had not read of the POSSIBLE goal of taking Middle East oil fields until recently. Of course, most of what I read about WW2 is from the American, and likely, too, the British perspectives.

Whether Hitler intended World or European or "only" central and eastern European domination does not really make a big difference to me. Hitler had to be defeated. Until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the US had no MAJOR reason to go to war. Yes, FDR did Lend-Lease for Britain, but Hitler did not go after US Shipping in the Atlantic BIG TIME until after Pearl Harbor.

So apparently I quote facts and The Ram can only quote or spout opinions.

And ConfSS agrees with those opinions? Does he therefore ignore facts?

Hitler never wanted a war with Britain. How could he achieved world domination without engaging in war with an empire spanning the world?

If you think that Hitler invading western Europe was him enacting his lebensraum policy, that's your opinion. Myself, I'd say once Britain and France declared war, he had to strategically take the west to stop British forces building on his doorstep. That's reality, not conjecture!

I do believe that he would have invaded Russia had he been allowed to settle and build, but again, that's only my opinion.

FACT: He (Hitler) DID invade Russia (USSR). Did you mean CONQUER Russia, not INVADE?

JusPlay

That is certainly a fact but I was under the impression that we were discussing what the nazi's would have done had war not been declared against them. Anyway, back on topic

1 Alexander the great
2 Admiral Lord Nelson
3 Rommel
4 Napoleon
5 Richard the lionheart

First, I like your top five; I never considered #5 Richard.

As far as speculation, I am not into that too much. If Germany defeated Russia (USSR), do you think Hitler would have STOPPED there, in Eastern Europe? I have my doubts. And, as I already said, Hitler had to be STOPPED and there were almost no other options in the Fall of 1939, except war, from my perspective. (You can read that and read works of fiction, but that is not where I was going, toward speculation. Maybe ConfSS wanted to go there; but not me.

Hitler's starving of some 3.3 MILLION Soviet POWs and the Holocaust against Polish and eastern European Jews are the SURFACE and cogent examples of his EVIL. And addition, there were atrocities against civilians in these lands.

[HitRed]

Germany vs. Russia was a war of annihilation and extermination. I've always wondered why Hitler didn't use GAS on the battlefield, Stalingrad/Leningrad. City fighting took away Germany's advantages.

[ConfederateSS]

---------When I said an area 3 times that of Germany....I mean Area....That is How Big Japan's Empire grew...You don't have to conquer countries....You can annex Land...Occupy land...Plus you forgot...To take account the vastness of The Pacific Ocean....Which stretched Japan's Empire....Where Germany was confined...To Land in Europe/Africa...Thanks to The Royal Navy of England...Even though Technically....Germany troops in Africa were holding onto land For Italy...... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...
---------What I said about The Western Powers not Taking Japan Seriously is true...Even after Japan modeled it's new look to it's military in Early 20th Century...To Honor and reflect European Military ways....The Historians who wrote on The War back then ,also did not give Japan...the Attention...The war in Europe/Africa... received...I didn't say The Asian war was not reported or recorded...Just down played...Even in America...What I said was reflected ,in how America treated it's own citizens...Moving Japanese Americans...From the west coast to middle America...When were the German or Italian Americans up rooted...and resettled else where?...
--------'Yes, I know the soldier and seamen fought the Japanese like Hell...That was after Pearl Harbor.(The sad thing is ,even in the mid 1930's,Japan and The USA would have little Navy drills/war games...The Japanese would win those as well ,and The USA still learned nothing, because The USA looked down at Japan)...Prior to that...Japan was ignored...Even when we started fighting Japan...or The European Powers in The Pacific fought The Japanese....Even when they would lose battle after battle to Japan...They still couldn't believe ...They lost to Japanese Forces....The French in French Indochina....The British in Hong Kong and Singapore.....Still looked down on the Japanese....After they were taken prisoner...So,Yes it does matter who started WW2.....JAPAN Started it in 1931...They should get credit....where credit is do.....In all aspects...of World War 2....

[Dukasaur]

I've always wondered why Hitler didn't use GAS on the battlefield,

Gas was banned by the Asphyxiating Gas Protocol of 1925, to which Germany was a signatory.

The Nazis may have been scumbags willing to break the law whenever it suited them. Luckily the Army was never completely subverted to the Nazi will, and for the most part refused to follow illegal orders. B.H. Liddel Hart, in The German Generals Talk made the case that the professional German soldier of WWII was actually more of a gentleman and more likely to stick to the rules of war than his WWI counterpart.

[HitRed]

I've always wondered why Hitler didn't use GAS on the battlefield,

Gas was banned by the Asphyxiating Gas Protocol of 1925, to which Germany was a signatory.

The Nazis may have been scumbags willing to break the law whenever it suited them. Luckily the Army was never completely subverted to the Nazi will, and for the most part refused to follow illegal orders. B.H. Liddel Hart, in The German Generals Talk made the case that the professional German soldier of WWII was actually more of a gentleman and more likely to stick to the rules of war than his WWI counterpart.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime ... _Wehrmacht

[ConfederateSS]

------- Although to be fair,I think the down play of Japan came more from the European Powers...Then America...As for America and Japan sizing each other up....As America was over confident of their ability ,if war broke out with Japan..... Admiral Yamamoto...went to college in America,so he knew how America was,he warned the Japanese High Command...in America ,there is a gun behind every blade of grass....The High Command viewed America,most likely do to the Roaring 20's in The USA....As a fat ,lazy full country,filled with people with no honor,all Americans wanted to do was play and party....With no stomach for war.....The Japanese High Command must have been fortune tellers...To bad ,America was heading in that direction...but not in WW2 time....The Japanese High Command must have seen 20/30 years into the future... Because ,what Japan hoped about America,would take place during the Vietnam War....... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...