So here's a question

[jimboston]

An act of war means we should retaliate in-kind but war is not an in-kind reaction to an act of war.

Mental gymnastics score: 9!

Have you heard of diplomacy? You don’t tell your opponent exactly what your retaliatory act will be... you warn them that cyber attacks may be considered an act of war.... then depending upon the attack, how bad, how you assess blame, how you assess risk, etc. you the retaliate.

You likely don’t launch nukes if a Chinese Hacker takes down CC. Maybe you hit one of their businesses?

[2dimes]

500 pounder aught to get the message across.

[mrswdk]

An act of war means we should retaliate in-kind but war is not an in-kind reaction to an act of war.

Mental gymnastics score: 9!

Have you heard of diplomacy? You don’t tell your opponent exactly what your retaliatory act will be... you warn them that cyber attacks may be considered an act of war.... then depending upon the attack, how bad, how you assess blame, how you assess risk, etc. you the retaliate.

Ah you're from the Obama school of diplomacy, where you declare Assad using chemical weapons a 'red line' and then just sit and watch mutely while he gasses his citizens.

'But I never said what I'd do if he crossed the red line!'

[jimboston]

An act of war means we should retaliate in-kind but war is not an in-kind reaction to an act of war.

Mental gymnastics score: 9!

Have you heard of diplomacy? You don’t tell your opponent exactly what your retaliatory act will be... you warn them that cyber attacks may be considered an act of war.... then depending upon the attack, how bad, how you assess blame, how you assess risk, etc. you the retaliate.

Ah you're from the Obama school of diplomacy, where you declare Assad using chemical weapons a 'red line' and then just sit and watch mutely while he gasses his citizens.

'But I never said what I'd do if he crossed the red line!'

Take my comments, ignore most, make what you like extreme.

[tzor]

Whereas of course 5G in America doesn’t enable the American government to spy on people in America, because of all the independent Cyber Patriot Eagles that patrol the inside of the network guarding people’s privacy.

No, it enables GOOGLE to spy on people. There is a vast difference between the level of control the American government places on its people and the Communist Party of China. We tap phones and emails and stuff like that. Now if there was a complete Democratic Party takeover of the government and the government wanted to strictly enforce climate change behavior, then that would change in a heartbeat. Hell even so called "Red Light" cameras are more for a way for a local government to get revenue outside of taxes than it is to actually get people to not go through red lights.

[tzor]

Have you heard of diplomacy? You don’t tell your opponent exactly what your retaliatory act will be... you warn them that cyber attacks may be considered an act of war.... then depending upon the attack, how bad, how you assess blame, how you assess risk, etc. you the retaliate.

Careful there Jimbo or else you will start to argue the policies of the Trump Administration.

[mrswdk]

Whereas of course 5G in America doesn’t enable the American government to spy on people in America, because of all the independent Cyber Patriot Eagles that patrol the inside of the network guarding people’s privacy.

No, it enables GOOGLE to spy on people.

Yeah, and the American government has no means of accessing those tech giants' systems and servers.

Oh no wait, all of America's big tech companies (incl. Google, Apple, Facebook, Microsoft etc.) have been giving the American government backdoor access to their systems for years :

https://www.theverge.com/2013/6/6/44038 ... hers-prism
https://www.cnet.com/news/nsa-surveilla ... n-snowden/

[nietzsche]

especially the future 5G network system to provide a 24/7 spying network on the people in China

keep repeating it.

I will ... How China Is Using “Social Credit Scores” to Reward and Punish Its Citizens

And some elements are indeed worthy of dystopian fiction. In certain areas of China, call a blacklisted person on the phone and you will hear a siren and recorded message saying: “Warning, this person is on the blacklist. Be careful and urge them to repay their debts.” When a blacklisted person crosses certain intersections in Beijing, facial-recognition technology projects their face and ID number on massive electronic billboards. Beijing-based lawyer Li Xiaolin was blacklisted after a court apology he gave was deemed “insincere.” Unable to buy tickets, he was stranded 1,200 miles from home.

China 'social credit': Beijing sets up huge system "By 2020, everyone in China will be enrolled in a vast national database that compiles fiscal and government information, including minor traffic violations, and distils it into a single number ranking each citizen." EVERYONE

And finally check and mate ...

Why China’s Interest in Blockchain Will Ultimately Be Bad For Crypto

China also plans to introduce a social credit system in the future that assigns a score to citizens depending on their online and real life behaviors. The DCEP could be intertwined with the country’s social credit system, and internet censorship, and the country could theoretically penalize behaviors through their finances as a result.

This is why massive communication systems are necessary to move the real time big data that will basically control all citizens through the direct linking of "harmonious" behavior with the virtual wealth controlled by the government.

yeah I don't care about that. What about that line you dropped that I referred to? I've spent like 3 mins total researching that and I've yet to see what it has to do with anything. I may be wrong, but my instinct tells me it's just bullshit. If the infrastructure design was by Apple, nobody would be saying shit. It has nothing to to with the inherent characteristics of it, it has all to do with the fact that it's designed by a Chinese company.

[nietzsche]

All I know is that if China (and now Russia) has these ‘Firewalls’ then they essentially control the flow of data in and out of their country.

Therefore if we determine that cyber attacks originate from either country it is be default that these attacks are blessed by the country.

So essentially any cyber attack emanating from Russia or China is really ‘blessed’ by that country nd should be considered an act of war.

It’s no different than a Privateer.

I'm going to try to not be aggressive jimboston.

Thank you. I will reply in kind. I don’t think any of your reply is aggressive.

You cannot really control the flow of internet data out of a country. The information travels encrypted, if you were to try to decrypt every single data package to analyse it you would need more cpu-time that what already exists, and possibly more man-time than the entire population of the world. What you can control is destination/source. Or do you think internet packets travel with a little flag that says either "safe" or "hacking" ? Hackers in China, Russia, America and even Timbuktu are even better at this, they can hide information in normal stuff, then encrypt it, and then use the standard mainstream encryption. Not only that, they use compromised systems for their hacking. For instance, hackers in China (or Russia, or America or even Timbuktu) can compromise a corporate system, then use that system in a vpn to go out to America (or China, or Russia, or even Timbuktu) into another compromised system from which they do an attack. That is just a basic example.[/end]

I’m not saying it’s easy, and I’m sure there’s more to it than I realize. I’m fairly technically literate, but It, by not means an expert.

That said, if you are controlling the flow of data part of what you watch is the volume of data. Using the right algorithms you can see patterns in the volume of data that hackers generate that would be suspicious. You investigate these more closely and you find that hackers. Do I think it’s foolproof and you will catch 100%.... no of course not. Do I think both Russia and China ‘turn a blind eye’ to cyber attacks on Western Nations and/or Western businesses. Yes.

What these countries are trying to do is basically prevent the common person from accessing Fox news or NPR or FB news or whatever source of information they consider dangerous to their purposes. They can do some other stuff, depending on their interests, but that's it.

I think the key point here is bolded. They don’t feel it is in their interest to limit, control, prevent, etc. hackers. My point is that through diplomatic means, and yes... through the threat of retaliatory acts... we can help make it in the interests of China and Russia to limit/prevent cyber attacks.

This is the second or third time you make the same mistake, which simply suggests that there's a will to see the world with America as the good guy, and the Chinese and Russians as the bad guys. With cyber attacks, I'd bet both my nuts that the first cyber attack was done by Americans. Of course, it can't be proven.

I agree. I would bet the US ‘started’ it. I think one difference is our attacks are directed at gov’t agencies... and their attacks are directed at both gov’t agencies and private enterprises. I also think that these countries in some ways encourage it on a criminal scale because they see the value that these causes as a disruption to our economy and political system. It’s also kind of a ‘farm system’ for their technical talent.

I’m also mainly concerned with the US interests... because I am American and so yeah... I’m biased and if there is a cyber war I was the US to win.

And I bet that as I type, there are hundreds of people employed by the American government working out ways to attack international targets, but they label it as preemtive something

Probably true.. I think there should more.

and they guy who directs is wearing a clean white shirt with a tie and a nice suit, and he looks a lot like the guy you would find very interesting if you happened to coincide at a restaurant and strike a small conversation with him. Unlike the stinky chinese that prepares your chow mein or the rude Russian that [don't know what the stereotype for Russian is].

This isn’t fair. I strike conversations with all types of people... though it’s hard to have a conversation with someone who’s rude.

I also like chow mein.

If you're going to be reasonable and try to pass your posts as those of a person who really thinks about it, I think you need to do a zoom out and see the mistake you keep making. If you're gonna root blindly for the US you're just going to start looking like NP or Hitred or someone like that. If you continue to find reasonable excuses for what America does, you're just doing mental masturbation, but hey, if that's what you enjoy..

I am not hiding my bias. I don’t think the USA is perfect, but I do honestly believe our system is better than most and I value the freedoms we have. The sad truth is that nations exist and compete... until that changes it’s only natural for me to root for my nation especially when I do think the root values are better.

Note... I’m not saying the PEOPLE are better... I’m saying the nation is better.

Also, I do think there is a difference between using cyber attacks to take out Iranian nuclear refining capabilities... and using cyber attacks to steal data from a private enterprise and then demand a ransom for releasing that data. I assume. you see a difference too. I don’t think the US directs or supports the type of criminal hacking that I believe is directed and/or supported by China and Russia.

Again, I only answer to you in this way because you always try to be reasonable.

Thanks. You too.

I do not expect you to root for China or Russia, and all things being equal i'd probably side with the US, just because i understand english but don't understand chinese, and also I'm more acquainted with that (lack of) culture.

My point is that, if you're trying to be reasonable and understand stuff, it's better if you try to push yourself to see things from a more neutral perspective, for that you would have to fight your instinct to see everything the US way, because you've been subjected to that way of thinking for some years. But, it's really up to you, it would only help you see things differently, it really isn't an obligation.


About volume, you really don't need volume coming out of China or Russia for an attack, in the case of a DoS, that os a brute attack, you need many computers attacking, they do this by creating malware that spreads by itself and either attacks, or leaves the system ready for attack.

About the farm systems, well, I guess i can picture that myself, but every time I do i imagine stinky chinese officials having evil laughs about it, they are smoking filterless cigarrettes and they're not super cleanly dressed. I watch holloywood movies too. TBH I don't know, I don't want to be naive but it would be biased to think the Chinese would do this but not the Americans.

I wasn't trying to say you were discriminating against Chinese or Russians, I was just trying to paint the picture of the same concept, being that you've been subject to one way of seeing things and therefore clouds your judgement if you do not make an extra effort to see the big picture, and to see it from the other point of view. And it's just natural that you find more things in common with people similar to you.

about your last comment.. uhmm.. i've been very confused for a while about what is a right crime and what is a wrong crime. FOr instance, Americans (and probably English) have a way of doing things that have come to be seen as right. With strategy, while not killing innocent civilians that appear on TV and tell their story, some crimes can be committed that end up being much more harmful. The next Sunday they go to church, and people speak proudly of how smart that was. And some brown person, or some Asian, out of emotional stupidity, without any effort to understand his primal motives, does something very bad, you know, 5 dead. THe American, clean, shaven, plotted to gain control of whatever, had 5000 lives made misserable, everybody thinks he's successful. The other idiot, couldn't control himself and was on tv and everybody hates him. probably dead, in jail, or on the run.

You get my point. I try to not be stupid when it comes to claiming the moral ground. I do not root for the Chinese over the American, I simple push it so that the irony can be seen. My arguments are full of holes, i just hope i drive my point.


Don't make me type a lot again, my laptop gets hot and i might get testicular cancer.

[mrswdk]

yeah I don't care about that. What about that line you dropped that I referred to? I've spent like 3 mins total researching that and I've yet to see what it has to do with anything. I may be wrong, but my instinct tells me it's just bullshit. If the infrastructure design was by Apple, nobody would be saying shit. It has nothing to to with the inherent characteristics of it, it has all to do with the fact that it's designed by a Chinese company.

Right on, nietz.

Although don’t forget the secret national security reasons the American government won’t tell anyone but that definitely justify barring Huawei from America.

[tzor]

No, it enables GOOGLE to spy on people.

Yeah, and the American government has no means of accessing those tech giants' systems and servers.

Not as long as Trump is president.

[tzor]

Freedom House: China World’s Worst Abuser of Internet Freedom for Fourth Year

The organization declared a “crisis” on social media, which authoritarian regimes increasingly use to control their populations and interfere with elections held in free countries. China was held up as the worst offender against Internet freedom for the fourth year running.

The Freedom House report judged that overall global Internet freedom “declined for the ninth consecutive year” due to censorship, surveillance, and A.I.-driven advances in propaganda and manipulation.

“Many governments are finding that on social media, propaganda works better than censorship. Authoritarians and populists around the globe are exploiting both human nature and computer algorithms to conquer the ballot box, running roughshod over rules designed to ensure free and fair elections,” said Freedom House President Mike Abramowitz.

“Advances in AI are driving a booming, unregulated market for social media surveillance. Even in countries with considerable safeguards for fundamental freedoms, there are already reports of abuse,” added Freedom House research director Adrian Shahbaz.

Shahbaz warned that social media will become a “Trojan horse for tyranny and oppression” if the largely American companies that own the largest platforms fail to vigorously promote “transparency and accountability in the digital age.”

[mrswdk]

No, it enables GOOGLE to spy on people.

Yeah, and the American government has no means of accessing those tech giants' systems and servers.

Not as long as Trump is president.

Christ what even is the point.

[jimboston]

... and also I'm more acquainted with that(lack of) culture.

That’s an underhanded jab and you know it.

First, if you know what the definition of culture is then you know that the US definitely has one.

Second, if you’re using the unofficial definition of this term it’s still not fair. You can claim US culture is ‘shallow’ or ‘cookie-cutter’... but it’s a lie and you know it. Our culture is our biggest export! You just admitted you’re a consumer or US entertainment! How can you say be a consumer of something that doesn’t exist?

My point is that, if you're trying to be reasonable and understand stuff, it's better if you try to push yourself to see things from a more neutral perspective, for that you would have to fight your instinct to see everything the US way, because you've been subjected to that way of thinking for some years.

I don’t know that I’ve ever claimed to be neutral. I do try to be open minded. We are all trapped in our own world views in some way.

I do also recognize reality. The reality is that countries exist and countries are often rivals for power/resources/etc. I hope someday that countries may not exist the way they do today and might be more like States or Territories, we all share the same planet and the same DNA, so why don't we act like it... but that world doesn’t exist. Given the reality that countries exist, I have to look at the whole picture and say of the powerful countries or spheres-of-influence that exist in the world today... which one is best. That one is the western world, led by the USA.

about your last comment.. uhmm.. i've been very confused for a while about what is a right crime and what is a wrong crime. FOr instance, Americans (and probably English) have a way of doing things that have come to be seen as right. With strategy, while not killing innocent civilians that appear on TV and tell their story, some crimes can be committed that end up being much more harmful. The next Sunday they go to church, and people speak proudly of how smart that was. And some brown person, or some Asian, out of emotional stupidity, without any effort to understand his primal motives, does something very bad, you know, 5 dead. THe American, clean, shaven, plotted to gain control of whatever, had 5000 lives made misserable, everybody thinks he's successful. The other idiot, couldn't control himself and was on tv and everybody hates him. probably dead, in jail, or on the run.

Certainly America has (and continues) to do things that hurt people. Sometimes it’s for the “right’ reasons and sometime not... but if the end result is the same what’s the difference? I get your point. I think.

You get my point. I try to not be stupid when it comes to claiming the moral ground. I do not root for the Chinese over the American, I simple push it so that the irony can be seen. My arguments are full of holes, i just hope i drive my point.

Yeah. I do... but nuance is hard to communicate here on the internet. Especially when you are talking to the likes of Nomad and mrswdk.

Don't make me type a lot again, my laptop gets hot and i might get testicular cancer.

No one made you do anything my little baby friend. (Baby because that’s your avatar.)

[mrswdk]

... and also I'm more acquainted with that(lack of) culture.

That’s an underhanded jab and you know it.

First, if you know what the definition of culture is then you know that the US definitely has one.

I think nietzsche was just alluding to the fact that the Chinese civilization has 5,000 years of history making it one of the world's oldest.

[jimboston]

... and also I'm more acquainted with that(lack of) culture.

That’s an underhanded jab and you know it.

First, if you know what the definition of culture is then you know that the US definitely has one.

I think nietzsche was just alluding to the fact that the Chinese civilization has 5,000 years of history making it one of the world's oldest.

Chinese people like to say this, but what’s the point?

Just because a civilization existed in the same place 5000 years ago it doesn’t necessarily mean that the culture is ‘better’.
What makes a culture better is subjective.

Furthermore you can pretend that the civilization was “continuous” and so that makes it ‘better’... but that’s BS. The civilization of mainland China has not been continuous and unbroken for 5000 years. In that time there’s been major political upheveals, invasions, occupations, interbreeding with. invaders and occupiers, etc. Technologies that were invented were lost or forgotten and then reinvented or rediscovered. At one point China was a major seafaring nation... but then they stopped exploring and lost the ability to navigate oceans such that when China was “discovered’ by the West the vessels were great for short distances but not ocean worthy.

What does Chinese culture offer the world today? Bad copies of stolen Western Technology and Ramen Noodles?
(Seriously I know there’s more to it... I’m just saying, the 5000 years thing is BS.)

[mrswdk]

you can pretend that the civilization was “continuous” and so that makes it ‘better’... but that’s BS.

Not sure where I said it was better?

The civilization of mainland China has not been continuous and unbroken for 5000 years. In that time there’s been major political upheveals, invasions, occupations

A civilization and culture is bigger than any political boundary or nation state and does not cease to exist just because of conflicts.

interbreeding with. invaders and occupiers

Uh oh.

Just for once it'd be good to have an exchange with you where we don't end up talking about racial hierarchies and head measurements.

[nietzsche]

... and also I'm more acquainted with that(lack of) culture.

That’s an underhanded jab and you know it.

you were not supposed to read that.

[tzor]

Christ what even is the point.

What's so funny?
Google, Facebook and Twitter HATE TRUMP. There is no way they would ever work with the President.
And there is no way that Trump could force them to do that even if he wanted them to.

Trump tried to get tech giants to work on 5G to beat China; even that attempt died a premature death.

[tzor]

I think nietzsche was just alluding to the fact that the Chinese civilization has 5,000 years of history making it one of the world's oldest.

So does Egypt. But I thought the question was "culture" not "history." According to Wikipedia, Chinese culture is about 2,000 years old starting with the Qin Dynasty ( 221 to 206 BC).

And frankly there is no such thing as "American" culture, anymore than there is something called "European" culture. Seriously there isn't anything called "Italian" culture as the culture of Sicily and Venice are literally miles apart. But there is culture in the United States, especially in New York, I might add.

[mookiemcgee]

Christ what even is the point.

What's so funny?
Google, Facebook and Twitter HATE TRUMP. There is no way they would ever work with the President.
And there is no way that Trump could force them to do that even if he wanted them to.

Trump tried to get tech giants to work on 5G to beat China; even that attempt died a premature death.

Do they though? Or do the people using those platforms hate Trump... and Trump has made it clear he hates them. But what has facebook done that makes you feel they hate him? Same for Twitter, you could argue Trump has kept them in business. Google is a bit of a different story.

It's kinda like CNN... both the president and CNN profit greatly from the polarized relationship. Neither one probably has real feelings of hate, but enjoy profiting from the appearance of hate.

I do find it funny when people assigned human emotions or characteristics to corporations. We only have ourselves to thank for that.

[NomadPatriot]

China is Right About Islam....

[mrswdk]

Christ what even is the point.

What's so funny?
Google, Facebook and Twitter HATE TRUMP. There is no way they would ever work with the President.

Those companies are giving data to the NSA and CIA, not the president

And there is no way that Trump could force them to do that even if he wanted them to.

PRISM is mandated under law and any similar future initiative probably would be as well

[jimboston]

you can pretend that the civilization was “continuous” and so that makes it ‘better’... but that’s BS.

Not sure where I said it was better?

The civilization of mainland China has not been continuous and unbroken for 5000 years. In that time there’s been major political upheveals, invasions, occupations

A civilization and culture is bigger than any political boundary or nation state and does not cease to exist just because of conflicts.

interbreeding with. invaders and occupiers

Uh oh.

Just for once it'd be good to have an exchange with you where we don't end up talking about racial hierarchies and head measurements.

You didn’t say it was better specifically, but it’s implied in this thread and in most every other thread in which you post.

You did say it was the ‘oldest’ but that was shot down.... because to be oldest it has to be continuous, and it hasn’t been.

Interbreeding in this case involves also the sharing and watering down of ‘true’ Chinese culture.

Remember, though I recognize genetic diversity... I’m also the person that says it doesn’t matter and that we really are all just once race.

[mrswdk]

You didn’t say it was better specifically, but it’s implied in this thread and in most every other thread in which you post.

Saving this to quote back at you each of the next 100 times you accuse me of putting words in your mouth.

Interbreeding in this case involves also the sharing and watering down of ‘true’ Chinese culture.

Remember, though I recognize genetic diversity... I’m also the person that says it doesn’t matter and that we really are all just once race.

You think humans are all one race, but you also think that Chinese people 'interbreeding' with non-Chinese people waters down Chinese culture?

I think we're getting dangerously close to someone posting to say that Ilhan Omar isn't a proper American.