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HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby armati on Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:23 am

Lincoln: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

"Lincoln freed the slaves" What utter BS. The so-called emancipation proclamation was directed only where Lincoln had no authority, in the South. It LEFT INTACT slavery in the north

Lincoln had already clearly voiced his acquiescence on the slavery issue, where it existed, and it was as yet still a legitimate, constitutionally recognized institution. Furthermore, Congress passed a Joint Resolution protecting slavery in perpetuity - a resolution that was actually ratified as an Amendment to the Constitution by Ohio and Maryland! There was absolutely no threat to the institution of slavery, per se, presented by Lincoln's election. And he made this clear, again, with his open endorsement of the above-mentioned amendment during his first inaugural address.

What the South objected to primarily was the refusal of Northern States to comply with their constitutional obligations regarding fugitive slaves and, more egregiously, being simultaneously beaten into submission by Northern interests which - via federal legislation - renewed the economic attack on the South (i.e., via the Morrill Tariff). "rights of the southern states via constitutional obligation"

What really slays me is that some people actually believe that white people of that time would fight to free black people.


The barbary wars were 1801-1805/ 1815-1816.
That was black people taking white people as slaves.

The U.S. fought in that war, northern states and southern states.
Thomas Jefferson was president, from Virginia.

Dragged in because their merchant ships were captured and crews held for ransoms.

Just wondering, do some people think that the barbary wars endeared black people to white people?
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby armati on Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:28 am

in case ya missed it "rights of the southern states via constitutional obligation"= states rights.

Just because people like Stephen Colbert repeat on television that the emancipation proclamation proves the war between the states was about freeing slaves does not make it so.

It does explain why people believe it was tho.

When something is said often enough and loud enough people will eventually believe it.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby armati on Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:43 am

The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States

Just because you mentioned it I figured I would read it.

You say "None of them say that it's "states rights"...... sure enough all of them do, they are talking about state rights, one of which is slavery.

They are succeeding due to abuses of their state rights.

Evidence?, thats funny.

Most historians?
I take history lessons from very few of them.

I actually heard a "historian" from a Canadian university say the British had nothing to do with the overthrow of the Czar.
People dont even know who the Bolsheviks were.
Nothing to do with the war between the states, just an example of how bad some "historians" are.
Started with a discussion of Crimea, people have agendas.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bernie Sanders on Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:02 am

What a bunch revisionist bullshit. Too many posters here are either to lazy to seek the truth/facts or just blinded by prejudice.

Here's just one State from the treasonous South of why they left the Union.

Georgia


The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic. This hostile policy of our confederates has been pursued with every circumstance of aggravation which could arouse the passions and excite the hatred of our people, and has placed the two sections of the Union for many years past in the condition of virtual civil war. Our people, still attached to the Union from habit and national traditions, and averse to change, hoped that time, reason, and argument would bring, if not redress, at least exemption from further insults, injuries, and dangers. Recent events have fully dissipated all such hopes and demonstrated the necessity of separation.

Our Northern confederates, after a full and calm hearing of all the facts, after a fair warning of our purpose not to submit to the rule of the authors of all these wrongs and injuries, have by a large majority committed the Government of the United States into their hands. The people of Georgia, after an equally full and fair and deliberate hearing of the case, have declared with equal firmness that they shall not rule over them. A brief history of the rise, progress, and policy of anti-slavery and the political organization into whose hands the administration of the Federal Government has been committed will fully justify the pronounced verdict of the people of Georgia. The party of Lincoln, called the Republican party, under its present name and organization, is of recent origin. It is admitted to be an anti-slavery party. While it attracts to itself by its creed the scattered advocates of exploded political heresies, of condemned theories in political economy, the advocates of commercial restrictions, of protection, of special privileges, of waste and corruption in the administration of Government, anti-slavery is its mission and its purpose. By anti-slavery it is made a power in the state. The question of slavery was the great difficulty in the way of the formation of the Constitution.

While the subordination and the political and social inequality of the African race was fully conceded by all, it was plainly apparent that slavery would soon disappear from what are now the non-slave-holding States of the original thirteen. The opposition to slavery was then, as now, general in those States and the Constitution was made with direct reference to that fact. But a distinct abolition party was not formed in the United States for more than half a century after the Government went into operation. The main reason was that the North, even if united, could not control both branches of the Legislature during any portion of that time. Therefore such an organization must have resulted either in utter failure or in the total overthrow of the Government. The material prosperity of the North was greatly dependent on the Federal Government; that of the South not at all. In the first years of the Republic the navigating, commercial, and manufacturing interests of the North began to seek profit and aggrandizement at the expense of the agricultural interests. Even the owners of fishing smacks sought and obtained bounties for pursuing their own business (which yet continue), and $500,000 is now paid them annually out of the Treasury. The navigating interests begged for protection against foreign shipbuilders and against competition in the coasting trade.

Congress granted both requests, and by prohibitory acts gave an absolute monopoly of this business to each of their interests, which they enjoy without diminution to this day. Not content with these great and unjust advantages, they have sought to throw the legitimate burden of their business as much as possible upon the public; they have succeeded in throwing the cost of light-houses, buoys, and the maintenance of their seamen upon the Treasury, and the Government now pays above $2,000,000 annually for the support of these objects. Theses interests, in connection with the commercial and manufacturing classes, have also succeeded, by means of subventions to mail steamers and the reduction in postage, in relieving their business from the payment of about $7,000,000 annually, throwing it upon the public Treasury under the name of postal deficiency.

The manufacturing interests entered into the same struggle early, and has clamored steadily for Government bounties and special favors. This interest was confined mainly to the Eastern and Middle non-slave-holding States. Wielding these great States it held great power and influence, and its demands were in full proportion to its power. The manufacturers and miners wisely based their demands upon special facts and reasons rather than upon general principles, and thereby mollified much of the opposition of the opposing interest. They pleaded in their favor the infancy of their business in this country, the scarcity of labor and capital, the hostile legislation of other countries toward them, the great necessity of their fabrics in the time of war, and the necessity of high duties to pay the debt incurred in our war for independence. These reasons prevailed, and they received for many years enormous bounties by the general acquiescence of the whole country.

But when these reasons ceased they were no less clamorous for Government protection, but their clamors were less heeded-- the country had put the principle of protection upon trial and condemned it. After having enjoyed protection to the extent of from 15 to 200 per cent. upon their entire business for above thirty years, the act of 1846 was passed. It avoided sudden change, but the principle was settled, and free trade, low duties, and economy in public expenditures was the verdict of the American people. The South and the Northwestern States sustained this policy. There was but small hope of its reversal; upon the direct issue, none at all.

All these classes saw this and felt it and cast about for new allies. The anti-slavery sentiment of the North offered the best chance for success. An anti-slavery party must necessarily look to the North alone for support, but a united North was now strong enough to control the Government in all of its departments, and a sectional party was therefore determined upon. Time and issues upon slavery were necessary to its completion and final triumph. The feeling of anti-slavery, which it was well known was very general among the people of the North, had been long dormant or passive; it needed only a question to arouse it into aggressive activity. This question was before us. We had acquired a large territory by successful war with Mexico; Congress had to govern it; how, in relation to slavery, was the question then demanding solution. This state of facts gave form and shape to the anti-slavery sentiment throughout the North and the conflict began. Northern anti-slavery men of all parties asserted the right to exclude slavery from the territory by Congressional legislation and demanded the prompt and efficient exercise of this power to that end. This insulting and unconstitutional demand was met with great moderation and firmness by the South. We had shed our blood and paid our money for its acquisition; we demanded a division of it on the line of the Missouri restriction or an equal participation in the whole of it. These propositions were refused, the agitation became general, and the public danger was great. The case of the South was impregnable. The price of the acquisition was the blood and treasure of both sections-- of all, and, therefore, it belonged to all upon the principles of equity and justice.

The Constitution delegated no power to Congress to excluded either party from its free enjoyment; therefore our right was good under the Constitution. Our rights were further fortified by the practice of the Government from the beginning. Slavery was forbidden in the country northwest of the Ohio River by what is called the ordinance of 1787. That ordinance was adopted under the old confederation and by the assent of Virginia, who owned and ceded the country, and therefore this case must stand on its own special circumstances. The Government of the United States claimed territory by virtue of the treaty of 1783 with Great Britain, acquired territory by cession from Georgia and North Carolina, by treaty from France, and by treaty from Spain. These acquisitions largely exceeded the original limits of the Republic. In all of these acquisitions the policy of the Government was uniform. It opened them to the settlement of all the citizens of all the States of the Union. They emigrated thither with their property of every kind (including slaves). All were equally protected by public authority in their persons and property until the inhabitants became sufficiently numerous and otherwise capable of bearing the burdens and performing the duties of self-government, when they were admitted into the Union upon equal terms with the other States, with whatever republican constitution they might adopt for themselves.

Under this equally just and beneficent policy law and order, stability and progress, peace and prosperity marked every step of the progress of these new communities until they entered as great and prosperous commonwealths into the sisterhood of American States. In 1820 the North endeavored to overturn this wise and successful policy and demanded that the State of Missouri should not be admitted into the Union unless she first prohibited slavery within her limits by her constitution. After a bitter and protracted struggle the North was defeated in her special object, but her policy and position led to the adoption of a section in the law for the admission of Missouri, prohibiting slavery in all that portion of the territory acquired from France lying North of 36 [degrees] 30 [minutes] north latitude and outside of Missouri. The venerable Madison at the time of its adoption declared it unconstitutional. Mr. Jefferson condemned the restriction and foresaw its consequences and predicted that it would result in the dissolution of the Union. His prediction is now history. The North demanded the application of the principle of prohibition of slavery to all of the territory acquired from Mexico and all other parts of the public domain then and in all future time. It was the announcement of her purpose to appropriate to herself all the public domain then owned and thereafter to be acquired by the United States. The claim itself was less arrogant and insulting than the reason with which she supported it. That reason was her fixed purpose to limit, restrain, and finally abolish slavery in the States where it exists. The South with great unanimity declared her purpose to resist the principle of prohibition to the last extremity. This particular question, in connection with a series of questions affecting the same subject, was finally disposed of by the defeat of prohibitory legislation.

The Presidential election of 1852 resulted in the total overthrow of the advocates of restriction and their party friends. Immediately after this result the anti-slavery portion of the defeated party resolved to unite all the elements in the North opposed to slavery an to stake their future political fortunes upon their hostility to slavery everywhere. This is the party two whom the people of the North have committed the Government. They raised their standard in 1856 and were barely defeated. They entered the Presidential contest again in 1860 and succeeded.
The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees in its favor, were boldly proclaimed by its leaders and applauded by its followers.

With these principles on their banners and these utterances on their lips the majority of the people of the North demand that we shall receive them as our rulers.

The prohibition of slavery in the Territories is the cardinal principle of this organization.

For forty years this question has been considered and debated in the halls of Congress, before the people, by the press, and before the tribunals of justice. The majority of the people of the North in 1860 decided it in their own favor. We refuse to submit to that judgment, and in vindication of our refusal we offer the Constitution of our country and point to the total absence of any express power to exclude us. We offer the practice of our Government for the first thirty years of its existence in complete refutation of the position that any such power is either necessary or proper to the execution of any other power in relation to the Territories. We offer the judgment of a large minority of the people of the North, amounting to more than one-third, who united with the unanimous voice of the South against this usurpation; and, finally, we offer the judgment of the Supreme Court of the United States, the highest judicial tribunal of our country, in our favor. This evidence ought to be conclusive that we have never surrendered this right. The conduct of our adversaries admonishes us that if we had surrendered it, it is time to resume it.

The faithless conduct of our adversaries is not confined to such acts as might aggrandize themselves or their section of the Union. They are content if they can only injure us. The Constitution declares that persons charged with crimes in one State and fleeing to another shall be delivered up on the demand of the executive authority of the State from which they may flee, to be tried in the jurisdiction where the crime was committed. It would appear difficult to employ language freer from ambiguity, yet for above twenty years the non-slave-holding States generally have wholly refused to deliver up to us persons charged with crimes affecting slave property. Our confederates, with punic faith, shield and give sanctuary to all criminals who seek to deprive us of this property or who use it to destroy us. This clause of the Constitution has no other sanction than their good faith; that is withheld from us; we are remediless in the Union; out of it we are remitted to the laws of nations.

A similar provision of the Constitution requires them to surrender fugitives from labor. This provision and the one last referred to were our main inducements for confederating with the Northern States. Without them it is historically true that we would have rejected the Constitution. In the fourth year of the Republic Congress passed a law to give full vigor and efficiency to this important provision. This act depended to a considerable degree upon the local magistrates in the several States for its efficiency. The non-slave-holding States generally repealed all laws intended to aid the execution of that act, and imposed penalties upon those citizens whose loyalty to the Constitution and their oaths might induce them to discharge their duty. Congress then passed the act of 1850, providing for the complete execution of this duty by Federal officers. This law, which their own bad faith rendered absolutely indispensible for the protection of constitutional rights, was instantly met with ferocious revilings and all conceivable modes of hostility.

The Supreme Court unanimously, and their own local courts with equal unanimity (with the single and temporary exception of the supreme court of Wisconsin), sustained its constitutionality in all of its provisions. Yet it stands to-day a dead letter for all practicable purposes in every non-slave-holding State in the Union. We have their convenants, we have their oaths to keep and observe it, but the unfortunate claimant, even accompanied by a Federal officer with the mandate of the highest judicial authority in his hands, is everywhere met with fraud, with force, and with legislative enactments to elude, to resist, and defeat him. Claimants are murdered with impunity; officers of the law are beaten by frantic mobs instigated by inflammatory appeals from persons holding the highest public employment in these States, and supported by legislation in conflict with the clearest provisions of the Constitution, and even the ordinary principles of humanity. In several of our confederate States a citizen cannot travel the highway with his servant who may voluntarily accompany him, without being declared by law a felon and being subjected to infamous punishments. It is difficult to perceive how we could suffer more by the hostility than by the fraternity of such brethren.

The public law of civilized nations requires every State to restrain its citizens or subjects from committing acts injurious to the peace and security of any other State and from attempting to excite insurrection, or to lessen the security, or to disturb the tranquillity of their neighbors, and our Constitution wisely gives Congress the power to punish all offenses against the laws of nations.

These are sound and just principles which have received the approbation of just men in all countries and all centuries; but they are wholly disregarded by the people of the Northern States, and the Federal Government is impotent to maintain them. For twenty years past the abolitionists and their allies in the Northern States have been engaged in constant efforts to subvert our institutions and to excite insurrection and servile war among us. They have sent emissaries among us for the accomplishment of these purposes. Some of these efforts have received the public sanction of a majority of the leading men of the Republican party in the national councils, the same men who are now proposed as our rulers. These efforts have in one instance led to the actual invasion of one of the slave-holding States, and those of the murderers and incendiaries who escaped public justice by flight have found fraternal protection among our Northern confederates.

These are the same men who say the Union shall be preserved.

Such are the opinions and such are the practices of the Republican party, who have been called by their own votes to administer the Federal Government under the Constitution of the United States. We know their treachery; we know the shallow pretenses under which they daily disregard its plainest obligations. If we submit to them it will be our fault and not theirs. The people of Georgia have ever been willing to stand by this bargain, this contract; they have never sought to evade any of its obligations; they have never hitherto sought to establish any new government; they have struggled to maintain the ancient right of themselves and the human race through and by that Constitution. But they know the value of parchment rights in treacherous hands, and therefore they refuse to commit their own to the rulers whom the North offers us. Why? Because by their declared principles and policy they have outlawed $3,000,000,000 of our property in the common territories of the Union; put it under the ban of the Republic in the States where it exists and out of the protection of Federal law everywhere; because they give sanctuary to thieves and incendiaries who assail it to the whole extent of their power, in spite of their most solemn obligations and covenants; because their avowed purpose is to subvert our society and subject us not only to the loss of our property but the destruction of ourselves, our wives, and our children, and the desolation of our homes, our altars, and our firesides. To avoid these evils we resume the powers which our fathers delegated to the Government of the United States, and henceforth will seek new safeguards for our liberty, equality, security, and tranquillity.

Approved, Tuesday, January 29, 1861
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bernie Sanders on Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:06 am

Here's another treasonous State who also spills the beans for leaving the Union.....You want more? Try getting off your @ss and Google it. Or do the Zionists control Google too?

Mississippi
A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

The hostility to this institution commenced before the adoption of the Constitution, and was manifested in the well-known Ordinance of 1787, in regard to the Northwestern Territory.

The feeling increased, until, in 1819-20, it deprived the South of more than half the vast territory acquired from France.

The same hostility dismembered Texas and seized upon all the territory acquired from Mexico.

It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses protection to that right on the high seas, in the Territories, and wherever the government of the United States had jurisdiction.

It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.

It tramples the original equality of the South under foot.

It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.

It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.

It has enlisted its press, its pulpit and its schools against us, until the whole popular mind of the North is excited and inflamed with prejudice.

It has made combinations and formed associations to carry out its schemes of emancipation in the States and wherever else slavery exists.

It seeks not to elevate or to support the slave, but to destroy his present condition without providing a better.

It has invaded a State, and invested with the honors of martyrdom the wretch whose purpose was to apply flames to our dwellings, and the weapons of destruction to our lives.

It has broken every compact into which it has entered for our security.

It has given indubitable evidence of its design to ruin our agriculture, to prostrate our industrial pursuits and to destroy our social system.

It knows no relenting or hesitation in its purposes; it stops not in its march of aggression, and leaves us no room to hope for cessation or for pause.

It has recently obtained control of the Government, by the prosecution of its unhallowed schemes, and destroyed the last expectation of living together in friendship and brotherhood.

Utter subjugation awaits us in the Union, if we should consent longer to remain in it. It is not a matter of choice, but of necessity. We must either submit to degradation, and to the loss of property worth four billions of money, or we must secede from the Union framed by our fathers, to secure this as well as every other species of property. For far less cause than this, our fathers separated from the Crown of England.

Our decision is made. We follow their footsteps. We embrace the alternative of separation; and for the reasons here stated, we resolve to maintain our rights with the full consciousness of the justice of our course, and the undoubting belief of our ability to maintain it.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bernie Sanders on Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:08 am

Texas
A Declaration of the Causes which Impel the State of Texas to Secede from the Federal Union.

The government of the United States, by certain joint resolutions, bearing date the 1st day of March, in the year A.D. 1845, proposed to the Republic of Texas, then *a free, sovereign and independent nation* [emphasis in the original], the annexation of the latter to the former, as one of the co-equal states thereof,

The people of Texas, by deputies in convention assembled, on the fourth day of July of the same year, assented to and accepted said proposals and formed a constitution for the proposed State, upon which on the 29th day of December in the same year, said State was formally admitted into the Confederated Union.

Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?

The controlling majority of the Federal Government, under various pretences and disguises, has so administered the same as to exclude the citizens of the Southern States, unless under odious and unconstitutional restrictions, from all the immense territory owned in common by all the States on the Pacific Ocean, for the avowed purpose of acquiring sufficient power in the common government to use it as a means of destroying the institutions of Texas and her sister slaveholding States.

By the disloyalty of the Northern States and their citizens and the imbecility of the Federal Government, infamous combinations of incendiaries and outlaws have been permitted in those States and the common territory of Kansas to trample upon the federal laws, to war upon the lives and property of Southern citizens in that territory, and finally, by violence and mob law, to usurp the possession of the same as exclusively the property of the Northern States.

The Federal Government, while but partially under the control of these our unnatural and sectional enemies, has for years almost entirely failed to protect the lives and property of the people of Texas against the Indian savages on our border, and more recently against the murderous forays of banditti from the neighboring territory of Mexico; and when our State government has expended large amounts for such purpose, the Federal Government has refuse reimbursement therefor, thus rendering our condition more insecure and harassing than it was during the existence of the Republic of Texas.

These and other wrongs we have patiently borne in the vain hope that a returning sense of justice and humanity would induce a different course of administration.

When we advert to the course of individual non-slave-holding States, and that a majority of their citizens, our grievances assume far greater magnitude.

The States of Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan and Iowa, by solemn legislative enactments, have deliberately, directly or indirectly violated the 3rd clause of the 2nd section of the 4th article [the fugitive slave clause] of the federal constitution, and laws passed in pursuance thereof; thereby annulling a material provision of the compact, designed by its framers to perpetuate the amity between the members of the confederacy and to secure the rights of the slave-holding States in their domestic institutions-- a provision founded in justice and wisdom, and without the enforcement of which the compact fails to accomplish the object of its creation. Some of those States have imposed high fines and degrading penalties upon any of their citizens or officers who may carry out in good faith that provision of the compact, or the federal laws enacted in accordance therewith.

In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.

For years past this abolition organization has been actively sowing the seeds of discord through the Union, and has rendered the federal congress the arena for spreading firebrands and hatred between the slave-holding and non-slave-holding States.

By consolidating their strength, they have placed the slave-holding States in a hopeless minority in the federal congress, and rendered representation of no avail in protecting Southern rights against their exactions and encroachments. They have proclaimed, and at the ballot box sustained, the revolutionary doctrine that there is a 'higher law' than the constitution and laws of our Federal Union, and virtually that they will disregard their oaths and trample upon our rights.

They have for years past encouraged and sustained lawless organizations to steal our slaves and prevent their recapture, and have repeatedly murdered Southern citizens while lawfully seeking their rendition.

They have invaded Southern soil and murdered unoffending citizens, and through the press their leading men and a fanatical pulpit have bestowed praise upon the actors and assassins in these crimes, while the governors of several of their States have refused to deliver parties implicated and indicted for participation in such offenses, upon the legal demands of the States aggrieved.

They have, through the mails and hired emissaries, sent seditious pamphlets and papers among us to stir up servile insurrection and bring blood and carnage to our firesides.

They have sent hired emissaries among us to burn our towns and distribute arms and poison to our slaves for the same purpose.

They have impoverished the slave-holding States by unequal and partial legislation, thereby enriching themselves by draining our substance.

They have refused to vote appropriations for protecting Texas against ruthless savages, for the sole reason that she is a slave-holding State.

And, finally, by the combined sectional vote of the seventeen non-slave-holding States, they have elected as president and vice-president of the whole confederacy two men whose chief claims to such high positions are their approval of these long continued wrongs, and their pledges to continue them to the final consummation of these schemes for the ruin of the slave-holding States.

In view of these and many other facts, it is meet that our own views should be distinctly proclaimed.

We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government *all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights* [emphasis in the original]; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.

By the secession of six of the slave-holding States, and the certainty that others will speedily do likewise, Texas has no alternative but to remain in an isolated connection with the North, or unite her destinies with the South.

For these and other reasons, solemnly asserting that the federal constitution has been violated and virtually abrogated by the several States named, seeing that the federal government is now passing under the control of our enemies to be diverted from the exalted objects of its creation to those of oppression and wrong, and realizing that our own State can no longer look for protection, but to God and her own sons-- We the delegates of the people of Texas, in Convention assembled, have passed an ordinance dissolving all political connection with the government of the United States of America and the people thereof and confidently appeal to the intelligence and patriotism of the freemen of Texas to ratify the same at the ballot box, on the 23rd day of the present month.

Adopted in Convention on the 2nd day of Feby, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-one and of the independence of Texas the twenty-fifth.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby armati on Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:01 pm

Thats parts of "The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States", I didnt post it because I'm pretty sure people wouldnt read it.
Easy enough to google if they wanted to.

Seems people are pretty entrenched in their beliefs about it.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Dukasaur on Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:26 pm

armati wrote:Thats parts of "The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States", I didnt post it because I'm pretty sure people wouldnt read it.
Easy enough to google if they wanted to.

Seems people are pretty entrenched in their beliefs about it.


Maybe you should try reading it. It's pretty clear that the maintenance of slavery was their primary concern.
In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.

For years past this abolition organization has been actively sowing the seeds of discord through the Union, and has rendered the federal congress the arena for spreading firebrands and hatred between the slave-holding and non-slave-holding States.

By consolidating their strength, they have placed the slave-holding States in a hopeless minority in the federal congress, and rendered representation of no avail in protecting Southern rights against their exactions and encroachments. They have proclaimed, and at the ballot box sustained, the revolutionary doctrine that there is a 'higher law' than the constitution and laws of our Federal Union, and virtually that they will disregard their oaths and trample upon our rights.

They have for years past encouraged and sustained lawless organizations to steal our slaves and prevent their recapture, and have repeatedly murdered Southern citizens while lawfully seeking their rendition.

In case you missed it:
Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law.

Nothing could be plainer: the Texas declaration elevates the subjugation of men based on race to the level of "Divine Law". The preservation of white supremacy was the one thing for which the south was willing to go to war.

This is not to say that there weren't other irritants between North and South. The federal tariffs and economic policies were certainly designed to benefit the industrialists of the north and not the farmers of the south. But none of those irritants were serious enough to provoke war. To make men go out and kill their neighbours requires an emotional issue, one that causes the breakdown of rational thought, and that emotional issue was about the continuation of the subjugation of negro slaves.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby armati on Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:33 pm

As I said earlier, people kinda see what they want to.

I would say you didnt read my posts, and what you see as slavery IS STATES RIGHTS.

Read what Lincoln is saying. Plain and simple,(i didnt even post some of his other letters) its not about slavery, look into it, the war did not start with the southern attack at
fort sumter as so many times is repeated.

You need to follow the story at the time. Your reading things in a vacuum and still, theyre talking about state rights.

Try reading the mississippi statement. That helps a little bit. The south was betrayed by the north, they fought mexico and were robbed of their share of the spoils among other things, as you didnt read my posts you missed the tariff etc

Anyway, Im kinda done with this as I've been thru it before,...... if you want research it. If not not a big deal.


To be honust I think the people that believe it was about slavery simply believe as they are told.

Not anyones fault really, human nature is to believe anything that is said loud enough and often enough.
Generations now have been told it was about slavery, called it a civil war when it was a war between the states etc.

Just a note, if ya wanna make big money investing, ya gotta figure stuff out before the herd does.

Anyway, I really couldnt care if people know this stuff or not, other than more proof the yanks betray and lie as standard practice it has no meaning for me.

So I will leave you to it.

Good discussion tho.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Symmetry on Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:44 pm

armati wrote:As I said earlier, people kinda see what they want to.

I would say you didnt read my posts, and what you see as slavery IS STATES RIGHTS.

Read what Lincoln is saying. Plain and simple,(i didnt even post some of his other letters) its not about slavery, look into it, the war did not start with the southern attack at
fort sumter as so many times is repeated.

You need to follow the story at the time. Your reading things in a vacuum and still, theyre talking about state rights.

Try reading the mississippi statement. That helps a little bit. The south was betrayed by the north, they fought mexico and were robbed of their share of the spoils among other things, as you didnt read my posts you missed the tariff etc

Anyway, Im kinda done with this as I've been thru it before,...... if you want research it. If not not a big deal.


To be honust I think the people that believe it was about slavery simply believe as they are told.

Not anyones fault really, human nature is to believe anything that is said loud enough and often enough.
Generations now have been told it was about slavery, called it a civil war when it was a war between the states etc.

Just a note, if ya wanna make big money investing, ya gotta figure stuff out before the herd does.

Anyway, I really couldnt care if people know this stuff or not, other than more proof the yanks betray and lie as standard practice it has no meaning for me.

So I will leave you to it.

Good discussion tho.


Mate, the thing about the "it's not about slavery" argument is that all the Confederate states said that it was all about slavery. They were very clear on the subject, and passed all kinds of statements that explicitly said that it was about slavery. They went to war and killed a lot of people to defend slavery, which also killed a lot of people.

It's funny that you still say that the South was betrayed. I doubt that you considered the slaves when you wrote that.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:16 pm

armati wrote:I would say you didnt read my posts, and what you see as slavery IS STATES RIGHTS.

Except that the only right they were concerned about was the right to keep slaves. None of the other bones of contention was enough to start a war over. Other frequently cited issues like the federal tariffs were irritants and led to arguments in the Senate, but they did not lead to war. The right to keep slaves was the only principle that sent to battle. Saying "states rights" (plural) is an attempt to muddy the waters. As the various statements make clear, there was only one right (singular) that sent them over the edge -- the right to subjugate men based on their ethnicity.

armati wrote:the war did not start with the southern attack at
fort sumter as so many times is repeated.

Actually, the war did begin with the attack on Fort Sumter. The Acts of Secession were not, in and of themselves, enough to bring about war. After the Acts of Secession were passed by the southern legislatures, a negotiated settlement was still very much possible. There's a number of possible scenarios that could have come about, including either a very gradual abolition of slavery, or even the independence of the seceded states after a period of negotiation. It was the attack at Fort Sumter that smashed the possibility of a negotiated settlement and brought about actual war.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Symmetry on Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:39 pm

All of which were about slavery.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby armati on Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:55 pm

Technically the 10 causes listed are reasons for Southern secession. The only cause of the war was that the South was invaded and responded to Northern aggression. ... The Cause that the Confederate States of America fought for (1861-1865) was Southern Independence from the United States of America.

The Ten Causes Of The War Between The States
By James W. King and LtCol Thomas M. Nelson

http://www.ushist.com/general-informati ... ates.shtml
1. TARIFF
2. CENTRALIZATION VERSUS STATES RIGHTS
3. CHRISTIANITY VERSUS SECULAR HUMANISM
4. CULTURAL DIFFERENCES
5. CONTROL OF WESTERN TERRITORIES
6. NORTHERN INDUSTRIALISTS WANTED THE SOUTH'S RESOURCES
7. SLANDER OF THE SOUTH BY NORTHERN NEWSPAPERS
8. NEW ENGLANDERS ATTEMPTED TO INSTIGATE MASSIVE SLAVE REBELLIONS IN THE SOUTH
9. SLAVERY
Indirectly slavery was a cause of the war. Most Southerners did not own slaves and would not have fought for the protection of slavery. However they believed that the North had no Constitutional right to free slaves held by citizens of Sovereign Southern States.
10. NORTHERN AGGRESSION AGAINST SOUTHERN STATES
Proof that Abraham Lincoln wanted war may be found in the manner he handled the Fort Sumter incident. Original correspondence between Lincoln and Naval Captain G.V.Fox shows proof that Lincoln acted with deceit and willfully provoked South Carolina into firing on the fort (A TARIFF COLLECTION FACILITY). It was politically important that the South be provoked into firing the first shot so that Lincoln could claim the Confederacy started the war.

Further info of each point is at link provided,hope it works.

Lincoln wanted war, but it was not to free slaves.
The answer isnt found in courses on that war.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Symmetry on Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:06 pm

armati wrote:Technically the 10 causes listed are reasons for Southern secession. The only cause of the war was that the South was invaded and responded to Northern aggression. ... The Cause that the Confederate States of America fought for (1861-1865) was Southern Independence from the United States of America.

The Ten Causes Of The War Between The States
By James W. King and LtCol Thomas M. Nelson

http://www.ushist.com/general-informati ... ates.shtml
1. TARIFF
2. CENTRALIZATION VERSUS STATES RIGHTS
3. CHRISTIANITY VERSUS SECULAR HUMANISM
4. CULTURAL DIFFERENCES
5. CONTROL OF WESTERN TERRITORIES
6. NORTHERN INDUSTRIALISTS WANTED THE SOUTH'S RESOURCES
7. SLANDER OF THE SOUTH BY NORTHERN NEWSPAPERS
8. NEW ENGLANDERS ATTEMPTED TO INSTIGATE MASSIVE SLAVE REBELLIONS IN THE SOUTH
9. SLAVERY
Indirectly slavery was a cause of the war. Most Southerners did not own slaves and would not have fought for the protection of slavery. However they believed that the North had no Constitutional right to free slaves held by citizens of Sovereign Southern States.
10. NORTHERN AGGRESSION AGAINST SOUTHERN STATES
Proof that Abraham Lincoln wanted war may be found in the manner he handled the Fort Sumter incident. Original correspondence between Lincoln and Naval Captain G.V.Fox shows proof that Lincoln acted with deceit and willfully provoked South Carolina into firing on the fort (A TARIFF COLLECTION FACILITY). It was politically important that the South be provoked into firing the first shot so that Lincoln could claim the Confederacy started the war.

Further info of each point is at link provided,hope it works.

Lincoln wanted war, but it was not to free slaves.
The answer isnt found in courses on that war.


Got to be honest, that website was all kinda dodgy. Plus,

James W. King
Past Commander Camp 141
Lt. Col. Thomas M. Nelson
Sons of Confederate Veterans


He's obviously a civil war re en-actor.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby armati on Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:35 pm

of course its "dodgy" they have a dif opinion than yours, but I am most likely correct that those guys have researched a great deal more than yourself.

What advantage is it to those people if the war was commonly known to be about states rights?

What advantage to the american government today that the people believe it was to free slaves?

Who has what to gain?

Critical and analytical thinking is sometimes required to figure stuff out.

When a person thinks like the rest of the crowd, he is not thinking.

There are two books needed for successful investing
'Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds' Charles Mackay 1841....(people dont change).
"Knowbody Knows Anything" Robert Moriarity 2016

First book is like the movie Karate Kid, boring as hell, wax on wax off for what seems like forever...then ya get it and understand.

Moriarity is a quick easy read, and he puts it all together.

With those two books you know all you need to know.
You will think for yourself.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Symmetry on Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:51 pm

armati wrote:of course its "dodgy" they have a dif opinion than yours, but I am most likely correct that those guys have researched a great deal more than yourself.

What advantage is it to those people if the war was commonly known to be about states rights?

What advantage to the american government today that the people believe it was to free slaves?

Who has what to gain?

Critical and analytical thinking is sometimes required to figure stuff out.

When a person thinks like the rest of the crowd, he is not thinking.

There are two books needed for successful investing
'Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds' Charles Mackay 1841....(people dont change).
"Knowbody Knows Anything" Robert Moriarity 2016

First book is like the movie Karate Kid, boring as hell, wax on wax off for what seems like forever...then ya get it and understand.

Moriarity is a quick easy read, and he puts it all together.

With those two books you know all you need to know.
You will think for yourself.


I'm not looking to invest in anything that you're selling, kid.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby armati on Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:49 pm

You also miss the message....think....................kid.lol
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Symmetry on Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:12 pm

armati wrote:You also miss the message....think....................kid.lol


Lol, for what it's worth, you ended as coherently as you started. Points for being consistent.

Looks like this is a wrap till He Who Shall Nor Be Named comes up with another birthday.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby ConfederateSS on Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:14 am

Dukasaur wrote:
armati wrote:I would say you didnt read my posts, and what you see as slavery IS STATES RIGHTS.

Except that the only right they were concerned about was the right to keep slaves. None of the other bones of contention was enough to start a war over. Other frequently cited issues like the federal tariffs were irritants and led to arguments in the Senate, but they did not lead to war. The right to keep slaves was the only principle that sent to battle. Saying "states rights" (plural) is an attempt to muddy the waters. As the various statements make clear, there was only one right (singular) that sent them over the edge -- the right to subjugate men based on their ethnicity.

armati wrote:the war did not start with the southern attack at
fort sumter as so many times is repeated.

Actually, the war did begin with the attack on Fort Sumter. The Acts of Secession were not, in and of themselves, enough to bring about war. After the Acts of Secession were passed by the southern legislatures, a negotiated settlement was still very much possible. There's a number of possible scenarios that could have come about, including either a very gradual abolition of slavery, or even the independence of the seceded states after a period of negotiation. It was the attack at Fort Sumter that smashed the possibility of a negotiated settlement and brought about actual war.

------Plural is the only way to say State's Rights ....for it is not like today...back then every state thought of itself as a separate country...Lee didn't want to fight against his home country of VA...When he turn down command of the Union army...No mudding intended... :D O:) ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion).... O:)
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bernie Sanders on Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:47 am

Lee pledged his alliegence to The United States of America.

He broke that oath to our country. He should of been hanged.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:05 pm

If it was about slavery, then why wasn't the war with Cuba or Brazil where slavery was still legal?
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bernie Sanders on Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:53 pm

Doom, your fascination with butterflies is intriguing. Are you planning a coming out party?
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby mookiemcgee on Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:26 pm

Symmetry wrote:
armati wrote:of course its "dodgy" they have a dif opinion than yours, but I am most likely correct that those guys have researched a great deal more than yourself.

What advantage is it to those people if the war was commonly known to be about states rights?

What advantage to the american government today that the people believe it was to free slaves?

Who has what to gain?

Critical and analytical thinking is sometimes required to figure stuff out.

When a person thinks like the rest of the crowd, he is not thinking.

There are two books needed for successful investing
'Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds' Charles Mackay 1841....(people dont change).
"Knowbody Knows Anything" Robert Moriarity 2016

First book is like the movie Karate Kid, boring as hell, wax on wax off for what seems like forever...then ya get it and understand.

Moriarity is a quick easy read, and he puts it all together.

With those two books you know all you need to know.
You will think for yourself.


I'm not looking to invest in anything that you're selling, kid.


@Symm if you change your mind he only accepts gold and silver for investments purposes.

It kinda feel like Armati is Tabasco, but on his meds, but also on the wrong dose of those meds. He flirts with being rational, but then somehow is still off on some island of crazy thought no sane person could actually agree with.
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby armati on Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:49 pm

"DoomYoshi on Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:05 pm

If it was about slavery, then why wasn't the war with Cuba or Brazil where slavery was still legal?"

The Barbary Wars might have been about slavery as that was black people enslaving white people.
But there is a strong argument the U.S. was more interested in the disturbance in U.S. merchant shipping.

The people that think the war between the states was about slavery intentionally ignore Lincolns clear statements that it was NOT about slavery.
As well as many other signs, pointers and indicators it was not about slavery.

Remember, Edward Bernays, people today have been told it was about slavery for about 200 years now, first 5yrs sets how people think their whole lives, thats human.

Sym, Stick with the herd you fit right in.

Maybe you otta try some meds. ;)
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Re: HAPPY 212th B-DAY ROBERT E. LEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bernie Sanders on Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:02 pm

armati wrote:
Maybe you otta try some meds. ;)


Fukn drug addicts should stay out of these political discussions, unless it involves pharmaceuticals.
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