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Incarceration rates around the world

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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby betiko on Wed May 18, 2016 2:13 am

mrswdk wrote:
GabonX wrote:This figure is silly. The US is artificially high when compared to countries like Syria and China because they execute criminals at a higher rate than most other countries on the list.

Show me a figure that combines incarcerations and executions in the data and then we'll talk.


Only if you can explain a) how a higher execution rate would lead to the US having a higher recorded incarceration rate (rather than a lower one), and b) why that would mean that America's incarceration rate somehow 'doesn't count'.


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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby mrswdk on Wed May 18, 2016 12:36 pm

The number of CIA spambots pouring into this thread to holler 'freedom isn't free' is quite remarkable, both in terms of how many of them there are and in terms of how laughably poor their attempts to undermine the data are.

Anyways, who mentioned the Vatican?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36310087

Looks like they're about to quadruple the number of people they have jailed in one go!
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby saxitoxin on Wed May 18, 2016 5:49 pm

LInda Searcy used to claim she once spent 19 years as an inmate in a women's jail. She said that, when she got out, she was given some silver by a priest and used to it start a business in a small town. Eventually she was elected mayor but then they tried to send her back to jail.

When I was 17 I realized Linda Searcy had just ripped-off the plot from Les Miserables. When I confronted her about it she locked me in her basement. I got out two minutes later through the side door which she'd forgot to close.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby GabonX on Fri May 20, 2016 3:20 pm

mrswdk wrote:
GabonX wrote:This figure is silly. The US is artificially high when compared to countries like Syria and China because they execute criminals at a higher rate than most other countries on the list.

Show me a figure that combines incarcerations and executions in the data and then we'll talk.


Only if you can explain a) how a higher execution rate would lead to the US having a higher recorded incarceration rate (rather than a lower one), and b) why that would mean that America's incarceration rate somehow 'doesn't count'.

To put it simply, China executes many more people than the US, resulting in the US having a higher incarceration rate. Many of the people in prison in the US would be executed in China without years of due process.

Because people are executed in China instead of held in prison as they are in the US, China has a lower incarceration rate than the US.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby Serbia on Fri May 20, 2016 6:36 pm

Stay out of jail.
????
PROFIT.

Bollocks. :twisted:
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby mrswdk on Fri May 20, 2016 7:30 pm

GabonX wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
GabonX wrote:This figure is silly. The US is artificially high when compared to countries like Syria and China because they execute criminals at a higher rate than most other countries on the list.

Show me a figure that combines incarcerations and executions in the data and then we'll talk.


Only if you can explain a) how a higher execution rate would lead to the US having a higher recorded incarceration rate (rather than a lower one), and b) why that would mean that America's incarceration rate somehow 'doesn't count'.

To put it simply, China executes many more people than the US, resulting in the US having a higher incarceration rate. Many of the people in prison in the US would be executed in China without years of due process.

Because people are executed in China instead of held in prison as they are in the US, China has a lower incarceration rate than the US.


lol. Using the most generous estimates of China's prison population I can find (the one in this thread), China's incarceration rate is 24% of America's. In order for China's incarceration rate to rise to even half of America's, that would mean the number of prisoners would have to be doubled.

Given there are about 2.3 million prisoners in China at present, that would mean that if we assume that China actually executes just as many people as it incarcerates, bringing its rate to half that of America's, it punishes 4.6 million people per year, 2.3 million of which it executes. Do I need to explain to you how ridiculous that is?

And even if that fantasy was true, that would still mean that China is only banging up half as many people as America is.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby mrswdk on Fri May 20, 2016 7:42 pm

The CIA trollbots in this thread are getting embarrassingly desperate:

First - rishaed: the figures for China are artificially low (the figure I gave in OP is about 50% higher than the official figures)
Then - Metsfanmax: China actually has just as many prisoners as the US, but the official figures omit the 7 million people kept in laogai camps (number a complete fabrication, laogai camps abolished 3 years ago)
Lastly - GabonX: China probably has just as many prisoners as the US, but executes about three quarters of their prison population every year and thus keeps their statistics low (bibliography: a dream he had last night)

What's next: 'Chinese hackers have downloaded Chinese felons into America's prisons'? And they accuse China of brainwashing its citizens!
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby thegreekdog on Fri May 20, 2016 8:28 pm

Are there statistics showing the number of years, on average, someone is incarcerated in the various countries?

By the way mrs. - you still haven't taken me up on my offer to fight about this... I'd still rather live in the US.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby rishaed on Fri May 20, 2016 10:22 pm

mrswdk wrote:The CIA trollbots in this thread are getting embarrassingly desperate:

First - rishaed: the figures for China are artificially low (the figure I gave in OP is about 50% higher than the official figures)
Then - Metsfanmax: China actually has just as many prisoners as the US, but the official figures omit the 7 million people kept in laogai camps (number a complete fabrication, laogai camps abolished 3 years ago)
Lastly - GabonX: China probably has just as many prisoners as the US, but executes about three quarters of their prison population every year and thus keeps their statistics low (bibliography: a dream he had last night)

What's next: 'Chinese hackers have downloaded Chinese felons into America's prisons'? And they accuse China of brainwashing its citizens!

What about all those people who are "detained indefinetly" but not charged. I've heard stories about those people. Usually they disappear never to be seen again. Also I don't buy that the laogai are "gone" they may be "illegal" but i think they just changed the official name, called them drug rehab centers, or mental institutions and BOOM! they aren't "laogai." Taken from Laogai.org
laogai.org wrote:Although the Communist Party nominally ended the laogai labor camp and recently formally abolished the laojiao labor camp, the fundamental structure of the Laogai System remains intact: the Party still operates a network of prison factories for convicted criminals and administrative detention facilities for non-criminal offenders in which inmates are forced to perform arduous labor and undergo intense political indoctrination. Administrative detention facilities in which inmates are forced to labor and endure political indoctrination include legal education centers, drug rehabilitation centers, and custody and education centers.

Prisoner in a modern Laogai System factoryFollowing the abolition of laojiao, the Party announced its intention to create “community correction centers.” Official state media reports indicate that inmates in these facilities will be forced to labor and endure political indoctrination. Establishing community correction centers as a replacement for laojiao mirrors the Party’s historical practice of closing politically problematic Laogai System detention centers in favor of relying on alternative arbitrary detention facilities where inmates are forced to labor and undergo Communist Party political indoctrination.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby GabonX on Fri May 20, 2016 10:25 pm

mrswdk wrote:Lastly - GabonX: China probably has just as many prisoners as the US, but executes about three quarters of their prison population every year and thus keeps their statistics low (bibliography: a dream he had last night)


Lol, brosef the whole point is you need to show a bibliography with credible figures including both incarceration rates and executions. Given that incarceration rates are likely fudged by the Chinese government, as we all know the Chinese government is sneaky and not to be trusted, and the execution rate is an official "state secret," this whole conversation has less merit than the dreams I had last night on account of my excellent sense of intuition...

The same could be said about a number of other countries on the list.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby saxitoxin on Sat May 21, 2016 12:42 am

Crimes per capita in High Prison Nations
#1 for prisoners - United States (41.29 crimes per 1,000)
#2 for prisoners - Russia (20.32 crimes per 1,000)
#3 for prisoners - Belarus (13.47 crimes per 1,000)
#8 for prisoners - Ukraine (11.48 crimes per 1,000)

Crimes per capita in Low Prison Nations
#93 for prisoners - Germany (78.89 crimes per 1,000)
#108 for prisoners - Sweden (138.35 crimes per 1,000)
#110 for prisoners - Denmark (91.34 crimes per 1,000)
#113 for prisoners - Finland (100.03 crimes per 1,000)

more prisoners = less raping
less prisoners = more raping

∴ mrswdk likes raping

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-inf ... Per-capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-inf ... s-per-1000
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby Army of GOD on Sat May 21, 2016 2:13 am

Holy shit it's GabonX
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby rishaed on Sat May 21, 2016 9:41 am

mrswdk wrote:The CIA trollbots in this thread are getting embarrassingly desperate:

First - rishaed: the figures for China are artificially low (the figure I gave in OP is about 50% higher than the official figures)

Wait... Did Mrswdk just call me a CIA trollbot? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
oh. That feels better.
Heres your 50 Cents. Thanks Mate gave me a great laugh.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby mrswdk on Sat May 21, 2016 4:11 pm

rishaed wrote:What about all those people who are "detained indefinetly" but not charged.


Again, those people are included in the statistics in OP. I stated so in the OP, I linked to the supporting data in the OP, and I directly explained this to you in a reply to your first post. I've done all I can - time to engage brain dude.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby mrswdk on Sat May 21, 2016 4:21 pm

GabonX wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Lastly - GabonX: China probably has just as many prisoners as the US, but executes about three quarters of their prison population every year and thus keeps their statistics low (bibliography: a dream he had last night)


Lol, brosef the whole point is you need to show a bibliography with credible figures including both incarceration rates and executions. Given that incarceration rates are likely fudged by the Chinese government, as we all know the Chinese government is sneaky and not to be trusted, and the execution rate is an official "state secret," this whole conversation has less merit than the dreams I had last night on account of my excellent sense of intuition...

The same could be said about a number of other countries on the list.


The figure of 2,400 executions in China that I gave is an Amnesty International figure.

inb4 'Amnesty International are Chinese pawns'
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby mrswdk on Sat May 21, 2016 4:26 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Are there statistics showing the number of years, on average, someone is incarcerated in the various countries?

By the way mrs. - you still haven't taken me up on my offer to fight about this... I'd still rather live in the US.


Dunno. Do your own damn Googling.

And okay. How about: America or North Korea?
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby Dukasaur on Sun May 22, 2016 12:48 am

thegreekdog wrote:Are there statistics showing the number of years, on average, someone is incarcerated in the various countries?

http://www.justicepolicy.org/uploads/justicepolicy/documents/sentencing.pdf
http://famm.org/the-facts-with-sources/#4
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us/23prison.html?_r=0


I'm definitely no fan of Communist China, but Mr. Swickdick is right on this one.

China may be a more evil regime than the U.S. in several ways, but nobody beats the U.S. for the sheer size and scope of the incarceration industry. You can play with the definitions all you want, but the U.S. leads the way in incarceration rates, in racially-differentiated incarceration rates, in draconian sentences for relatively minor crimes, in the number of prison sentences handed out of victimless crimes, in "no parole" sentences for more serious crimes, and possibly most troubling, in the number of children tried as adults.

Numerous politicians have made a career out of promising to "get tough on crime" and the result is horrific. An ordinary, not-particularly-criminal youth can get involved in some normal youthful peccadillo, some low-grade vandalism or a street brawl or some drug use. In most countries, he would draw probation, possibly a fine to pay, some kind of restitution or community service. In the U.S., if he has bad luck with the prosecutor and the judge he draws, he can get a multi-year sentence during which he can be transformed from a normal, somewhat rebellious but perfectly normal and potentially productive youth, into a hardened criminal fully indoctrinated into the thug life.

The War on Drugs is the biggest factor. The narrow-minded fanaticism of anti-drug people leads to an average sentence of more than five years in prison for these essentially victimless crimes.

Prisons-for-profit is another factor. While in most countries prisons are a deadweight cost, in the U.S. many prisons have been converted into a profitable enterprise, either for the state itself or for some company which is counting on the growth of the prison system for its profit and will vigorously lobby for such growth.

There are 500,000 prison guards in the U.S., 800,000 cops, and something in the neighbourhood of 400,000 lawyers, law clerks, legal secretaries, etc., in the criminal justice system. (The last number is difficult to pin down reliably, because most law practises do not quantify how much of their work is criminal versus civil.) Add to that the construction companies that build the prisons, the companies that supply them with food and linens, the companies that supply the cops with their guns and the lawyers with their pencils, and possibly another million spin-off jobs are dependent on keeping a healthy flow of bodies coming through the prison gates. It is an industry, and a lot of people depend on the growth of that industry for their job security.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby rishaed on Sun May 22, 2016 9:42 am

Duk I'm not saying that the U.S. Numbers are artificially high. What im saying is most likely China's numbers are artificially LOW. 164 for China is insanely low considering all of the human rights violations that have been observed.
Also:
laogai.org wrote:Although the Chinese government classifies the number of inmates in its prison and administrative detention facilities as a state secret, the Laogai Research Foundation estimates that the Laogai System is currently comprised of over one thousand detention facilities in which millions of individuals are imprisoned. Since its inception, we estimate that over fifty million people have been incarcerated in the Laogai System.

IF we assume that the number is roughly the same over the past 65yrs. The number in this is just under 10million. Probably between 7-8 million. (7.69 ish)
That assumes that the number is the same which i highly doubt b/c of Mao's popularity during his reign. And the amount of death caused by some of his policies. So i'll estimate that while the number is probably closer to 10 million, 7.7-8 mill is a safe bet.
The only thing is that China has over 1 billion people.. This could cause the number to seem artificially low ( the only thing that might drive down the number).
However the number estimated in the wikipedia link is about "prison population of 2,300,000" which resulted in a number of 164. I think that china, while it may not be as high as the US is probably closer to the 400-500 range.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun May 22, 2016 11:38 am

mrswdk wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
mrswdk wrote:And if you had looked any further rather than an 8-year-old statistic from a lobbying organization, you would know that laogai has since been abolished.


So you have evidence that these labor camps no longer exist? Source please.


What's this - guilty until proven innocent? If you wish to make such ludicrous claims as 'China has 7 million people held in secret detention', the onus is on you to prove it.


I don't think the general existence of these camps, at least in the past, is up for debate, unless you think all of the discussion of the laogai camps is complete propaganda and that these never existed. Anyway, your comment here seems in stark contradiction to the claim you made that "laogai camps [were] abolished 3 years ago." Not only is this implicit acceptance that the secret detention centers did in fact exist, you're claiming specific knowledge of when they closed, which does require some evidence. Presumably you're referring to the source on that page that says the prison system was formally abolished in 2013 -- that doesn't do a whole lot to convince me that China no longer has secret detention facilities, it just indicates that they're reshuffling them on paper.

I just think that you should be cautious of defending a country as respecting freedom when we don't even know how many people it imprisons.

Especially given that SPOILER ALERT I just looked at the source given for the '6.8 million people held in laogai' statistic you quoted, and page 18 of said source actually says '500,000 to 2 million' people were held in laogai in 2008 - 6.8 million is a total fabrication on the part of whoever vandalized that Wikipedia.


What, did you see two different numbers and just assume that because the lower one was more convenient, the other one could only be the result of vandalism? The source in question does in fact say 6.8 million prisoners. The "500,000 to 2 million" people is a different source, which directly comes from the Laogai Research Foundation, and it is not clear to me that this is the sum of all secret detention facilities, as opposed to only one component of them.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby rishaed on Sun May 22, 2016 11:54 am

That number is specifically referring to laojiao not laogai (so only a component and not the whole). The two are similar but not the same thing (reform through labor, and reform through re-education) according to the source.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby Dukasaur on Sun May 22, 2016 6:37 pm

rishaed wrote:Duk I'm not saying that the U.S. Numbers are artificially high. What im saying is most likely China's numbers are artificially LOW. 164 for China is insanely low considering all of the human rights violations that have been observed.
Also:
laogai.org wrote:Although the Chinese government classifies the number of inmates in its prison and administrative detention facilities as a state secret, the Laogai Research Foundation estimates that the Laogai System is currently comprised of over one thousand detention facilities in which millions of individuals are imprisoned. Since its inception, we estimate that over fifty million people have been incarcerated in the Laogai System.

IF we assume that the number is roughly the same over the past 65yrs. The number in this is just under 10million. Probably between 7-8 million. (7.69 ish)
That assumes that the number is the same which i highly doubt b/c of Mao's popularity during his reign. And the amount of death caused by some of his policies. So i'll estimate that while the number is probably closer to 10 million, 7.7-8 mill is a safe bet.
The only thing is that China has over 1 billion people.. This could cause the number to seem artificially low ( the only thing that might drive down the number).
However the number estimated in the wikipedia link is about "prison population of 2,300,000" which resulted in a number of 164. I think that china, while it may not be as high as the US is probably closer to the 400-500 range.

I won't dispute your numbers because you've obviously studied the issue and I haven't. I certainly have no doubt that China falsifies its statistics and whatever the real numbers are, they are higher than reported. Yet, even the numbers you cite give you a final result in the 400-500 range, which is considerably lower than the (relatively undisputed) 650 given for the U.S.

Even if the numbers were the same, that would still be a horrific condemnation of U.S. policy. China is a repressive dictatorship. For a country like the U.S. which masquerades as the world's bastion of freedom, to even be flirting with numbers in the same range as China's is an embarrassment. It turns out that the alleged land of the free is actually the home of a great many unfree people.

Even if China's numbers were a little higher, I would still consider that an indictment of U.S. policies. Slapping yourself on the back for being a little less repressive than a dictatorship like China is sort of like bragging that you have a better health care system than Liberia, or a better highway network than Uzbekistan.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby rishaed on Sun May 22, 2016 9:37 pm

That seems like a fair statement duk. The only reason i get into spats with wdk is that s/he tries to portray china as something that its not most of the time.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby mrswdk on Mon May 23, 2016 3:36 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
mrswdk wrote:And if you had looked any further rather than an 8-year-old statistic from a lobbying organization, you would know that laogai has since been abolished.


So you have evidence that these labor camps no longer exist? Source please.


What's this - guilty until proven innocent? If you wish to make such ludicrous claims as 'China has 7 million people held in secret detention', the onus is on you to prove it.


I don't think the general existence of these camps, at least in the past, is up for debate, unless you think all of the discussion of the laogai camps is complete propaganda and that these never existed. Anyway, your comment here seems in stark contradiction to the claim you made that "laogai camps [were] abolished 3 years ago." Not only is this implicit acceptance that the secret detention centers did in fact exist, you're claiming specific knowledge of when they closed, which does require some evidence.


1 - I never denied that the camps have ever existed
2 - I was mocking your ridiculous number, which has been completely discredited since you cited it

you're claiming specific knowledge of when they closed, which does require some evidence.


The government stated it was going to close laogai several years ago, and the 'Laogai Research Foundation' (everyone's apparent go to for anti-laogai research) seems to have fallen completely silent on laogai in the years since. Given that the government publicly stated it was ending laogai, and the main anti-laogai lobbying group has stopped claiming that laogai exist, the onus is on the random internet guy to prove his claim that he knows better than everyone else.

Especially given that SPOILER ALERT I just looked at the source given for the '6.8 million people held in laogai' statistic you quoted, and page 18 of said source actually says '500,000 to 2 million' people were held in laogai in 2008 - 6.8 million is a total fabrication on the part of whoever vandalized that Wikipedia.


What, did you see two different numbers and just assume that because the lower one was more convenient, the other one could only be the result of vandalism? The source in question does in fact say 6.8 million prisoners. The "500,000 to 2 million" people is a different source, which directly comes from the Laogai Research Foundation, and it is not clear to me that this is the sum of all secret detention facilities, as opposed to only one component of them.


The article gives a figure of 1,045 detention centers, which it credits to the Laogai Research Foundation's (LRF's) 2008 handbook. It then ignores the same handbook's estimate of 500,000 - 2 million people detained in those camps in favor of the much higher figure of 6.8 million quoted in the Epoch Times, which claims it got that number from the LRF but doesn't actually provide a source.

In fact, I spent a little time searching for a source for the 6.8 million figure and could only find articles claiming that 6.8 million is the LRF's figure, but never actually providing a reference. Given that the LRF itself explicitly says 500,000 - 2 million, it would seem that 500,000 - 2 million is the safest figure. That is why I have continued using that figure and that is why you now have two eggs on your face instead of your previous total of one.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby mrswdk on Mon May 23, 2016 4:28 am

And also, what you two are continuing to ignore is the fact that, even if we assume that laogai never went away, and we assume that the LRF's absolute top end estimate of 2 million was the true total figure in 2008, and we assume that figure has continued to be correct in the years since the government pledged to close the laogai, that still only brings China's incarceration rate up to half of America's.

So, like Duk says, maybe you guys should spend less time concocting wild-eyed fantasies about how China is Big Brother and America is the antidote, and more time considering what that the stats are telling you about your own government.
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Re: Incarceration rates around the world

Postby notyou2 on Mon May 23, 2016 8:14 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Literally all you had to do was follow the link and read the para explaining that the official data on sentenced prisoners is 118, but that if you add the estimated number of un-sentenced people being held in detention centers then that figure rises to 164.


And if you had done that, you would have then found the information about the Chinese laogai, which by one estimate contain seven million people detained to serve forced hard labor. These seem to be conveniently left out of the official Chinese statistics, as that paragraph states that there are less than 700 thousand detained but not sentenced prisoners according to official Chinese information. Surely this was an honest oversight, as mrswdk has confirmed for us that China would never participate in despicable propaganda tactics. But if you did include those people, the Chinese number starts to look a lot like the American rate. Hm...


Are Chinese prisons also built by the rich as money making schemes?
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