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REALITY

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Re: REALITY

Postby DaGip on Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:50 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:That does not follow. Consider heat and entropy. The possibility of spontaneous transmission of energy from a cooler to warmer system exists, yet has never occurred because of the overwhelming amount of microstates of the opposite, or what we know as diffusion and heat transfer. The probabilities are too staggering. This is similar to our 9/11 conspiracist.

Nietzsche replied to my first post about the fixity of reality, therefore I think know what he is attempting to say. He specifically said, "imagining it all," implying that reality is a construct of my mind. Or, I'm a crazy person in a padded cell.

-TG


TG, I do not mean to interupt, but I have to put my two cents in on your imprisoned three dimensional thinking. You are seeing the Universe as what the whole sum of observers have come to believe. The rate of gravity, the speed of light, electromagnetic force...these things exist only as your three dimensional perception will allow. Once you realize the Multiverse of existence, you will see that your notion of physics differs in other universes. One universe may have very little gravity, another might consist mostly of antimatter. These are aspects beyond the seventh dimensional gate. Within the Seventh Dimension all possible systems converge as one sentient system...be it a human, a whale, a fly on the wall. The Seventh Dimension embraces transient manifestation, also commonly referred to as evolution.

Once you delve into the Eighth and Ninth Dimensions, all these physical presumptions dissipate into an infinite conglomerate of universes that have differing laws of physics from the other (either drastic or miniscule). Into the Ninth Dimension, you will have very little (if any) physical laws and you begin to enter into Vast Consciousness. In this dimension all possibilities are realized, and like the Githzerai mentioned earlier, one just thinks and it becomes. Dreaming is a gleaning of the Ninth Dimension.

You must understand this before you enter into DaGipriel's reality and help him save the planet from super villains that seek to keep you and the rest of civilization imprisoned in your three dimensional shells.

Thusly, this song is in order:

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Re: REALITY

Postby macbone on Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:51 am

The core idea here is perception vs. reality. Of course, the act of observing light particles affects their trajectory, so I agree that our perceptions can influence reality, so the two are linked, but there's a difference between an improperly calibrated instrument and a properly calibrated one.

Reading threads like this one make me realize how little I really know.



Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom

Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow
Life is very long

Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom
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Re: REALITY

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:57 am

Army of GOD wrote:Pretty sure were arguing two different things

More than two.
ā€œā€ŽLife is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.ā€
― Voltaire
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Re: REALITY

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:27 am

macbone wrote:The core idea here is perception vs. reality. Of course, the act of observing light particles affects their trajectory, so I agree that our perceptions can influence reality, so the two are linked, but there's a difference between an improperly calibrated instrument and a properly calibrated one.


That's not really what that means.

-TG
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Re: REALITY

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:33 am

DaGip wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:That does not follow. Consider heat and entropy. The possibility of spontaneous transmission of energy from a cooler to warmer system exists, yet has never occurred because of the overwhelming amount of microstates of the opposite, or what we know as diffusion and heat transfer. The probabilities are too staggering. This is similar to our 9/11 conspiracist.

Nietzsche replied to my first post about the fixity of reality, therefore I think know what he is attempting to say. He specifically said, "imagining it all," implying that reality is a construct of my mind. Or, I'm a crazy person in a padded cell.

-TG


TG, I do not mean to interupt, but I have to put my two cents in on your imprisoned three dimensional thinking. You are seeing the Universe as what the whole sum of observers have come to believe. The rate of gravity, the speed of light, electromagnetic force...these things exist only as your three dimensional perception will allow. Once you realize the Multiverse of existence, you will see that your notion of physics differs in other universes. One universe may have very little gravity, another might consist mostly of antimatter. These are aspects beyond the seventh dimensional gate. Within the Seventh Dimension all possible systems converge as one sentient system...be it a human, a whale, a fly on the wall. The Seventh Dimension embraces transient manifestation, also commonly referred to as evolution.

Once you delve into the Eighth and Ninth Dimensions, all these physical presumptions dissipate into an infinite conglomerate of universes that have differing laws of physics from the other (either drastic or miniscule). Into the Ninth Dimension, you will have very little (if any) physical laws and you begin to enter into Vast Consciousness. In this dimension all possibilities are realized, and like the Githzerai mentioned earlier, one just thinks and it becomes. Dreaming is a gleaning of the Ninth Dimension.

You must understand this before you enter into DaGipriel's reality and help him save the planet from super villains that seek to keep you and the rest of civilization imprisoned in your three dimensional shells.

Thusly, this song is in order:



Image
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Re: REALITY

Postby macbone on Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:57 am

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
macbone wrote:The core idea here is perception vs. reality. Of course, the act of observing light particles affects their trajectory, so I agree that our perceptions can influence reality, so the two are linked, but there's a difference between an improperly calibrated instrument and a properly calibrated one.


That's not really what that means.

-TG


That's my understanding of it. You can know where a light particle is, or you can know how fast it's going, but you can't know both at the same time. The very act of observing the light particle changes its trajectory.

Image

Image

I'll admit, though, this is based on physics classes from 20 years ago, and I wasn't a great physics student. =)
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Re: REALITY

Postby warmonger1981 on Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:27 am

Velvet sales are down. Velvet is not in style anymore. I need to sell more velvet. I convince a designer in Paris to use velvet on a new pair of shoes. I take those same shoes and solicit them to a famous actress. She wears them in a movie. The public sees them and goes crazy for them. The shoes start to sell making my velvet company more money. Is the reality that the the public likes velvet again on their own tuition or are they subconsciously making decisions based on propaganda? What's the reality? Or does a piano salesman convince the public to value music so much that people build a room in there home specifically for music. This room needs to be filled with instruments. He solicits the idea of a piano. Is the public making their own decisions or are they propagated to do so
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Re: REALITY

Postby DaGip on Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:45 am

warmonger1981 wrote:Velvet sales are down. Velvet is not in style anymore.


Three Dimensional existence in the eternal Now.

warmonger1981 wrote:I need to sell more velvet.


You think of your options, the options are an array of possible future outcomes. This is Fourth Dimensional existence.

warmonger1981 wrote:I convince a designer in Paris to use velvet on a new pair of shoes.


Out of all those infinite futures and probabilities, you (as a Fifth Dimensional creature) chose a possible reality.


warmonger1981 wrote:I take those same shoes and solicit them to a famous actress. She wears them in a movie. The public sees them and goes crazy for them. The shoes start to sell making my velvet company more money.


Sixth Dimensional reality goes beyond the self, where as it is no longer just the Observer making the choice; but the Observer's environment begins to make those choices as well. It is harder to say that we are Sixth Dimensional creatures without losing sight of the self and one's ego.

warmonger1981 wrote: Is the reality that the the public likes velvet again on their own tuition or are they subconsciously making decisions based on propaganda? What's the reality? Or does a piano salesman convince the public to value music so much that people build a room in there home specifically for music. This room needs to be filled with instruments. He solicits the idea of a piano. Is the public making their own decisions or are they propagated to do so


The Seventh Dimensional realization that the Observer is no different from the Observed. The Observer's own belief and desire that velvet is awesome and it will make you lots of money is projected into the Seventh Dimensional membrane. The imprint that this makes on that membrane vibrates through the 8th dimensional stream of multiversal existences. This 8th Dimensional Stream prepares your chosen future by collecting information of the positions of every particle in your universe. The 9th Dimension knits those positions virtually, like a computer and imprints that information onto the 10th Dimension.

The 10th Dimension does not move, it manifests as differing realities of itself (a proton here, an electron there...). The Observer's eyes see this happening in an instant of time, a process of disintegration and manifestation...disintegration and manifestation, ad infinitum.

The 11th Dimension and the 0th Dimension are the same. There are two properties of the 0th and 11th Dimensions. One is that it contains all the outcomes of an infinite array of multiple universes, and the other is it contains emptiness and void. One we can call Impulse and the other Void...this is the real Reality of the Universe: Impulse and Void, Impulse and Void...Disintegration and Manifestation, Disintegration and Manifestation. It is the "heart beat" of the Universe.
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Re: REALITY

Postby rdsrds2120 on Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:38 pm

Reality and physics: the now newly romanticized things for people who watched a YouTube video to think about.

I'm with TG on this one. The rest just seems sensationalist.

--Gomez
Last edited by rdsrds2120 on Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: REALITY

Postby nietzsche on Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:49 pm

rdsrds2120 wrote:Reality and physics: the how new romanticized things for people who watched a YouTube video to think about.

I'm with TG on this one. The rest just seems sensationalist.

--Gomez


Wut?

You are too young. It has nothing to do with youtube and it's nothing sensationalist. In fact, to be obvious, is about perception. What you think reality is, it's mostly you than what you would call "reality". Your thought patterns and state of being have been imprinted into you since you were in your mommy's belly. The ideas that you consume everyday, from politics to the shape of an hex nut are all chosen for you, and you are just consuming them.

And, to turn the gun in your direction: the current wave of cynic atheists is simply the effect of the wave of authors that popularized the idea (at first subtly) on US television. Yes, cartoons made you guys atheists.

How is being spoon fed atheism/materialism and sticking to it without giving it real, authentic thought is different from being a religious fanatic?
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Re: REALITY

Postby Army of GOD on Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:04 pm

rdsrds2120 wrote:Reality and physics: the how new romanticized things for people who watched a YouTube video to think about.

I'm with TG on this one. The rest just seems sensationalist.

--Gomez


Pretty sure nietzsche and I have a lot more experience in physics than just watching a Youtube video...
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Re: REALITY

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:11 pm

nietzsche wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:Reality and physics: the how new romanticized things for people who watched a YouTube video to think about.

I'm with TG on this one. The rest just seems sensationalist.

--Gomez


Wut?

You are too young. It has nothing to do with youtube and it's nothing sensationalist. In fact, to be obvious, is about perception. What you think reality is, it's mostly you than what you would call "reality". Your thought patterns and state of being have been imprinted into you since you were in your mommy's belly. The ideas that you consume everyday, from politics to the shape of an hex nut are all chosen for you, and you are just consuming them.

And, to turn the gun in your direction: the current wave of cynic atheists is simply the effect of the wave of authors that popularized the idea (at first subtly) on US television. Yes, cartoons made you guys atheists.

How is being spoon fed atheism/materialism and sticking to it without giving it real, authentic thought is different from being a religious fanatic?


You're confusing reality with world views.

The dictionary:
"Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined."

-TG
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Re: REALITY

Postby Army of GOD on Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:29 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:That does not follow. Consider heat and entropy. The possibility of spontaneous transmission of energy from a cooler to warmer system exists, yet has never occurred because of the overwhelming amount of microstates of the opposite, or what we know as diffusion and heat transfer. The probabilities are too staggering. This is similar to our 9/11 conspiracist.


But that still doesn't mean it can't happen because it CAN happen. If there is a possibility of it occurring regardless of how small, it can still take place. And until it can be proven that 100% without a doubt it can't happen (and I don't think this is possible with anything and think it's naive to say it can), it creates the notion that reality is subjective in my mind.



Also, the fact that this subject is so god damn [f*ck I forgot the word] that I'm probably not communicating my argument how I want to and we're all probably misunderstanding each other's thoughts.
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Re: REALITY

Postby nietzsche on Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:37 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:Reality and physics: the how new romanticized things for people who watched a YouTube video to think about.

I'm with TG on this one. The rest just seems sensationalist.

--Gomez


Wut?

You are too young. It has nothing to do with youtube and it's nothing sensationalist. In fact, to be obvious, is about perception. What you think reality is, it's mostly you than what you would call "reality". Your thought patterns and state of being have been imprinted into you since you were in your mommy's belly. The ideas that you consume everyday, from politics to the shape of an hex nut are all chosen for you, and you are just consuming them.

And, to turn the gun in your direction: the current wave of cynic atheists is simply the effect of the wave of authors that popularized the idea (at first subtly) on US television. Yes, cartoons made you guys atheists.

How is being spoon fed atheism/materialism and sticking to it without giving it real, authentic thought is different from being a religious fanatic?


You're confusing reality with world views.

The dictionary:
"Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined."

-TG


I'm not confusing anything. I'm giving a wide range of examples only to try and show a point.

But, to play ball with you, how would you know what that "state of things" actually is? Don't you trust your mind for that? First with your perception, then using mathematics and models?

Forget all your learned models and ideas, just for a minute. The "real" "reality" wouldn't be a matter of study of metaphysics?

You seem to think you have a trustful medium to access this "reality". But in fact you have not. The fact that the majority, of say, western scientific thinkers think that way doesn't make it a reality.

All we can get to experience for sure is ourselves. "Reality" we perceive with our senses and mind. We form models in our mind after we've heard or read about it.

You cannon claim that you know for sure "reality" exists without making a leaf of faith. That if in the end that might end up to be truth is another thing.
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Re: REALITY

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:41 pm

nietzsche wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:Reality and physics: the how new romanticized things for people who watched a YouTube video to think about.

I'm with TG on this one. The rest just seems sensationalist.

--Gomez


Wut?

You are too young. It has nothing to do with youtube and it's nothing sensationalist. In fact, to be obvious, is about perception. What you think reality is, it's mostly you than what you would call "reality". Your thought patterns and state of being have been imprinted into you since you were in your mommy's belly. The ideas that you consume everyday, from politics to the shape of an hex nut are all chosen for you, and you are just consuming them.

And, to turn the gun in your direction: the current wave of cynic atheists is simply the effect of the wave of authors that popularized the idea (at first subtly) on US television. Yes, cartoons made you guys atheists.

How is being spoon fed atheism/materialism and sticking to it without giving it real, authentic thought is different from being a religious fanatic?


You're confusing reality with world views.

The dictionary:
"Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined."

-TG


I'm not confusing anything. I'm giving a wide range of examples only to try and show a point.

But, to play ball with you, how would you know what that "state of things" actually is? Don't you trust your mind for that? First with your perception, then using mathematics and models?

Forget all your learned models and ideas, just for a minute. The "real" "reality" wouldn't be a matter of study of metaphysics?

You seem to think you have a trustful medium to access this "reality". But in fact you have not. The fact that the majority, of say, western scientific thinkers think that way doesn't make it a reality.

All we can get to experience for sure is ourselves. "Reality" we perceive with our senses and mind. We form models in our mind after we've heard or read about it.

You cannon claim that you know for sure "reality" exists without making a leaf of faith. That if in the end that might end up to be truth is another thing.


I already explained why that argument is silly. It's great when one is super high, but otherwise it's sophistry.

-TG
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Re: REALITY

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:46 pm

Also, I like how we've co-opted warmonger's quasi-political thread to a purely ridiculous ontological thread.

-TG
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Re: REALITY

Postby Army of GOD on Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:47 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:Also, I like how we've co-opted warmongers quasi-political thread to a purely ridiculous ontological thread.

-TG


I don't think anyone actually attempted to answer his questions haha
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Re: REALITY

Postby kuthoer on Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:53 pm

Reality, hmmmm.

I dropped acid with a friend one time and we fought over a beautiful sparkling rock, it was covered with beautiful shining diamond dust. I won control of this magnificent rock! Took home and placed this beautiful object on my dresser.

Woke up in the morning and went to gander over my hard fought jewel only to see a dull sand stone on my dresser.

Reality is one's perspective at the time.
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Re: REALITY

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:03 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:Reality and physics: the how new romanticized things for people who watched a YouTube video to think about.

I'm with TG on this one. The rest just seems sensationalist.

--Gomez


Wut?

You are too young. It has nothing to do with youtube and it's nothing sensationalist. In fact, to be obvious, is about perception. What you think reality is, it's mostly you than what you would call "reality". Your thought patterns and state of being have been imprinted into you since you were in your mommy's belly. The ideas that you consume everyday, from politics to the shape of an hex nut are all chosen for you, and you are just consuming them.

And, to turn the gun in your direction: the current wave of cynic atheists is simply the effect of the wave of authors that popularized the idea (at first subtly) on US television. Yes, cartoons made you guys atheists.

How is being spoon fed atheism/materialism and sticking to it without giving it real, authentic thought is different from being a religious fanatic?


You're confusing reality with world views.

The dictionary:
"Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined."

-TG


I'm not confusing anything. I'm giving a wide range of examples only to try and show a point.

But, to play ball with you, how would you know what that "state of things" actually is? Don't you trust your mind for that? First with your perception, then using mathematics and models?

Forget all your learned models and ideas, just for a minute. The "real" "reality" wouldn't be a matter of study of metaphysics?

You seem to think you have a trustful medium to access this "reality". But in fact you have not. The fact that the majority, of say, western scientific thinkers think that way doesn't make it a reality.

All we can get to experience for sure is ourselves. "Reality" we perceive with our senses and mind. We form models in our mind after we've heard or read about it.

You cannon claim that you know for sure "reality" exists without making a leaf of faith. That if in the end that might end up to be truth is another thing.


I already explained why that argument is silly. It's great when one is super high, but otherwise it's sophistry.

-TG


To expand, for nietzsche's sake: you are saying that I am arguing a black-and-white, binary existence. That is, things are or are not. You say that I cannot be sure of this because blah blah, our minds interpret sensory input. I am saying that the mere acknowledgement that minds rationalize that input is a proof that things either exist or they don't. One doesn't invent a tool for something that doesn't exist.

-TG
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Re: REALITY

Postby kuthoer on Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:18 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:Reality and physics: the how new romanticized things for people who watched a YouTube video to think about.

I'm with TG on this one. The rest just seems sensationalist.

--Gomez


Wut?

You are too young. It has nothing to do with youtube and it's nothing sensationalist. In fact, to be obvious, is about perception. What you think reality is, it's mostly you than what you would call "reality". Your thought patterns and state of being have been imprinted into you since you were in your mommy's belly. The ideas that you consume everyday, from politics to the shape of an hex nut are all chosen for you, and you are just consuming them.

And, to turn the gun in your direction: the current wave of cynic atheists is simply the effect of the wave of authors that popularized the idea (at first subtly) on US television. Yes, cartoons made you guys atheists.

How is being spoon fed atheism/materialism and sticking to it without giving it real, authentic thought is different from being a religious fanatic?


You're confusing reality with world views.

The dictionary:
"Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined."

-TG


I'm not confusing anything. I'm giving a wide range of examples only to try and show a point.

But, to play ball with you, how would you know what that "state of things" actually is? Don't you trust your mind for that? First with your perception, then using mathematics and models?

Forget all your learned models and ideas, just for a minute. The "real" "reality" wouldn't be a matter of study of metaphysics?

You seem to think you have a trustful medium to access this "reality". But in fact you have not. The fact that the majority, of say, western scientific thinkers think that way doesn't make it a reality.

All we can get to experience for sure is ourselves. "Reality" we perceive with our senses and mind. We form models in our mind after we've heard or read about it.

You cannon claim that you know for sure "reality" exists without making a leaf of faith. That if in the end that might end up to be truth is another thing.


I already explained why that argument is silly. It's great when one is super high, but otherwise it's sophistry.

-TG


To expand, for nietzsche's sake: you are saying that I am arguing a black-and-white, binary existence. That is, things are or are not. You say that I cannot be sure of this because blah blah, our minds interpret sensory input. I am saying that the mere acknowledgement that minds rationalize that input is a proof that things either exist or they don't. One doesn't invent a tool for something that doesn't exist.

-TG


Unless you had hallucinated....
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Re: REALITY

Postby nietzsche on Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:55 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:Reality and physics: the how new romanticized things for people who watched a YouTube video to think about.

I'm with TG on this one. The rest just seems sensationalist.

--Gomez


Wut?

You are too young. It has nothing to do with youtube and it's nothing sensationalist. In fact, to be obvious, is about perception. What you think reality is, it's mostly you than what you would call "reality". Your thought patterns and state of being have been imprinted into you since you were in your mommy's belly. The ideas that you consume everyday, from politics to the shape of an hex nut are all chosen for you, and you are just consuming them.

And, to turn the gun in your direction: the current wave of cynic atheists is simply the effect of the wave of authors that popularized the idea (at first subtly) on US television. Yes, cartoons made you guys atheists.

How is being spoon fed atheism/materialism and sticking to it without giving it real, authentic thought is different from being a religious fanatic?


You're confusing reality with world views.

The dictionary:
"Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined."

-TG


I'm not confusing anything. I'm giving a wide range of examples only to try and show a point.

But, to play ball with you, how would you know what that "state of things" actually is? Don't you trust your mind for that? First with your perception, then using mathematics and models?

Forget all your learned models and ideas, just for a minute. The "real" "reality" wouldn't be a matter of study of metaphysics?

You seem to think you have a trustful medium to access this "reality". But in fact you have not. The fact that the majority, of say, western scientific thinkers think that way doesn't make it a reality.

All we can get to experience for sure is ourselves. "Reality" we perceive with our senses and mind. We form models in our mind after we've heard or read about it.

You cannon claim that you know for sure "reality" exists without making a leaf of faith. That if in the end that might end up to be truth is another thing.


I already explained why that argument is silly. It's great when one is super high, but otherwise it's sophistry.

-TG


I see why you think I'm speaking of two different things. Depending on your state of being you perceive reality to be. Now, this is what you call world views. I say this perception is all we have, and the further rationalizations that enclose what we perceive in a model or theory. Some of this models include concepts like time or space that we've learned are relative, yet other filters we apply to our perception are based heavily on understandings of time and space as linear and fixed; "nevermind the contradictions, it must be true, I cannot be wrong".

However, you seem to be completely sure of the existence of an outside reality of this most immediate experience we have. And you claim this is the truth. I say you cannot prove this, that you are making a leap of faith. You deem this so obvious that you think you need not to prove anything, the burden falls on me, I have to prove otherwise. But I counter: what proof do you have of the existence of this outside reality? Or are you like Locke and think that what you hold to be true is common sense?
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Re: REALITY

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:47 pm

nietzsche wrote:I see why you think I'm speaking of two different things. Depending on your state of being you perceive reality to be. Now, this is what you call world views. I say this perception is all we have, and the further rationalizations that enclose what we perceive in a model or theory. Some of this models include concepts like time or space that we've learned are relative, yet other filters we apply to our perception are based heavily on understandings of time and space as linear and fixed; "nevermind the contradictions, it must be true, I cannot be wrong".

However, you seem to be completely sure of the existence of an outside reality of this most immediate experience we have. And you claim this is the truth. I say you cannot prove this, that you are making a leap of faith. You deem this so obvious that you think you need not to prove anything, the burden falls on me, I have to prove otherwise. But I counter: what proof do you have of the existence of this outside reality? Or are you like Locke and think that what you hold to be true is common sense?


I wrote:I am saying that the mere acknowledgement that minds rationalize that input is a proof that things either exist or they don't.
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Re: REALITY

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:25 pm

Nietzsche's insistence on radical skepticism has annoyed me to the point where I must say something.

nietz wrote:And you claim this is the truth. I say you cannot prove this, that you are making a leap of faith.


'Reality' as perceived is real enough. In order to meet nietzsche's standard of proof, we'd need absolute certainty--e.g. in order for the theory of gravity to be a true description of reality, it would need to be accurate to an infinite amount of decimal places (probability=1). Unfortunately, that standard also undermines nietzsche's claims about what is and what isn't reality since he would also fail to meet such a standard. Nietzsche is bound to cut himself with his double-edged sword.

The best that we can do is rely on subjective probabilities for claims on reality--e.g. when I twist that door knob, what is the probability that I'm actually touching a door knob and that it'll open the door? My estimated probability = "pretty fuckin' high." But, does "pretty fuckin' high" meet nietzsche's standard of p=1? No, of course not, but nothing does--not even my last claim, but does this mean I must ponder into the depths of my navel and constantly be confused about 'reality'? No, language traps can be avoided, and it still doesn't follow that we must 'throw the baby outta the bath water' by relying on alternative explanations based on the radical skepticism of human abilities to perceive reality. The alternative offered by nietz and seemingly supported by AoG are simply not warranted.

    If you're concerned about the reliance upon subjective probabilities, then you can always compare them to objective probabilities. E.g. what do you think is the probability that you'll die in a car accident v. what is the probability of people dying in car accidents?. However, this is really an issue about people conforming to or failing to conform to Rational Expectations theory. If you're concerned about our ascertaining 'objective' probabilities, then keep reading:


Usefulness of Doubting Reality
Even if we concede to all of AoG's and Nietzsche's points, we can ask a practical question: is it useful to posit radical skepticism/subjectivism? No. It's a deadend, and even worse, its practitioners don't even sincerely follow what they espouse. When nietzsche is about to stand up from his chair, does nietzsche have dreadful moments of skepticism about the reality of the floor? No. He stands up, and everything is fine. "But he can't prove that the floor exists!!!" So what? p=0.99999999999999999999999999999 is good enough. And, if he really did have such problems, he should see a psychiatrist.

Is it useful to take our perception of reality as good enough? Sure, because through that route people invent medicines, provide desirable goods, better homes, greater incomes, better philosophy, and overall greater prosperity. It's not at all absurd to assume that one's perception of reality tends to be correct, and although at times people make perceptual mistakes, they can still update. "But there's some chance that the radical skeptics might be true!!" Sure, but again, who cares. I'll keep making practical decisions in the real enough world, and in return I'll keep making real enough profits.


The Usefulness of Radical Subjectivism
Finally, although relying on a subjectivist reality implies that nothing can be ascertained with certainty, that failure isn't a serious problem for some people, and for most people, that problem is ignored--e.g. "God does exist" v. "God does not exist." Note: p=1 in their claims. How can this problem resolved?

(1) Most people think what they want and continue with their lives as usual (because thinking is costly).

(2) Some people approximate the Truth by comparing varying degrees of evidence for different claims--dependent upon their criteria of truth (e.g. Scientific Method, various theories, prior assumptions like "what I observe is real enough").

    For example, consider these claims: 2+2=4 is true v. Judeo-Christian God exists. Recall how some people use different criteria for determining the truth, or 'truth', of each, and notice how some groups flip their standard of evidence/Truth for each claim. This dilemma can be explained: some people don't care to update their analytical tools or to beat down their cognitive biases. It might be too costly for them.

Nevertheless, even within 'subjectivist' reality, some claims are truer than others, but that ascertaining of truth is dependent upon one's criteria for truth, so discrepancies in the claims of truth have causes which can be identified and examined. The Scientist/Philosopher is already on his way to rendering this world more sensible while the radical skepticist or radical subjectivist would still be stuck on stage 1: assume reality is real enough. "Never!" Ask a radical subjectivist if Nazism is morally good and watch how little usefulness is gleaned for their stance. Watch the unwillingness to compare the validity of various claims. In the real enough world, some people can hold wrong moral claims (where p = 0.99999999999), and we can know this by filtering claims through sensible criteria.


In short, it still doesn't follow that our entire sensory mechanism should be completely doubted, thus we should seriously question our perception constantly. Reality-doubters and radical subjectivists need not be taken seriously (and here I am, wasting time, taking them seriously).


[god damn, 1 hour spent on that. Back to BBS-prohibition mode].
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Re: REALITY

Postby demonfork on Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:39 pm

nietzsche wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:Reality and physics: the how new romanticized things for people who watched a YouTube video to think about.

I'm with TG on this one. The rest just seems sensationalist.

--Gomez


Wut?

You are too young. It has nothing to do with youtube and it's nothing sensationalist. In fact, to be obvious, is about perception. What you think reality is, it's mostly you than what you would call "reality". Your thought patterns and state of being have been imprinted into you since you were in your mommy's belly. The ideas that you consume everyday, from politics to the shape of an hex nut are all chosen for you, and you are just consuming them.

And, to turn the gun in your direction: the current wave of cynic atheists is simply the effect of the wave of authors that popularized the idea (at first subtly) on US television. Yes, cartoons made you guys atheists.

How is being spoon fed atheism/materialism and sticking to it without giving it real, authentic thought is different from being a religious fanatic?


You're confusing reality with world views.

The dictionary:
"Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined."

-TG


I'm not confusing anything. I'm giving a wide range of examples only to try and show a point.

But, to play ball with you, how would you know what that "state of things" actually is? Don't you trust your mind for that? First with your perception, then using mathematics and models?

Forget all your learned models and ideas, just for a minute. The "real" "reality" wouldn't be a matter of study of metaphysics?

You seem to think you have a trustful medium to access this "reality". But in fact you have not. The fact that the majority, of say, western scientific thinkers think that way doesn't make it a reality.

All we can get to experience for sure is ourselves. "Reality" we perceive with our senses and mind. We form models in our mind after we've heard or read about it.

You cannon claim that you know for sure "reality" exists without making a leaf of faith. That if in the end that might end up to be truth is another thing.


I already explained why that argument is silly. It's great when one is super high, but otherwise it's sophistry.

-TG


I see why you think I'm speaking of two different things. Depending on your state of being you perceive reality to be. Now, this is what you call world views. I say this perception is all we have, and the further rationalizations that enclose what we perceive in a model or theory. Some of this models include concepts like time or space that we've learned are relative, yet other filters we apply to our perception are based heavily on understandings of time and space as linear and fixed; "nevermind the contradictions, it must be true, I cannot be wrong".

However, you seem to be completely sure of the existence of an outside reality of this most immediate experience we have. And you claim this is the truth. I say you cannot prove this, that you are making a leap of faith. You deem this so obvious that you think you need not to prove anything, the burden falls on me, I have to prove otherwise. But I counter: what proof do you have of the existence of this outside reality? Or are you like Locke and think that what you hold to be true is common sense?


Most likely you're a brain in a jar and your reality is based on pharmacologically induced inputs, administered through several peristaltic pumps that are being managed by a proportional-integral-derivative controller that is connected to an Apple iic computer.
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Re: REALITY

Postby nietzsche on Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:47 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Nietzsche's insistence on radical skepticism has annoyed me to the point where I must say something.

nietz wrote:And you claim this is the truth. I say you cannot prove this, that you are making a leap of faith.


'Reality' as perceived is real enough. In order to meet nietzsche's standard of proof, we'd need absolute certainty--e.g. in order for the theory of gravity to be a true description of reality, it would need to be accurate to an infinite amount of decimal places (probability=1). Unfortunately, that standard also undermines nietzsche's claims about what is and what isn't reality since he would also fail to meet such a standard. Nietzsche is bound to cut himself with his double-edged sword.

The best that we can do is rely on subjective probabilities for claims on reality--e.g. when I twist that door knob, what is the probability that I'm actually touching a door knob and that it'll open the door? My estimated probability = "pretty fuckin' high." But, does "pretty fuckin' high" meet nietzsche's standard of p=1? No, of course not, but nothing does--not even my last claim, but does this mean I must ponder into the depths of my navel and constantly be confused about 'reality'? No, language traps can be avoided, and it still doesn't follow that we must 'throw the baby outta the bath water' by relying on alternative explanations based on the radical skepticism of human abilities to perceive reality. The alternative offered by nietz and seemingly supported by AoG are simply not warranted.

    If you're concerned about the reliance upon subjective probabilities, then you can always compare them to objective probabilities. E.g. what do you think is the probability that you'll die in a car accident v. what is the probability of people dying in car accidents?. However, this is really an issue about people conforming to or failing to conform to Rational Expectations theory. If you're concerned about our ascertaining 'objective' probabilities, then keep reading:


Usefulness of Doubting Reality
Even if we concede to all of AoG's and Nietzsche's points, we can ask a practical question: is it useful to posit radical skepticism/subjectivism? No. It's a deadend, and even worse, its practitioners don't even sincerely follow what they espouse. When nietzsche is about to stand up from his chair, does nietzsche have dreadful moments of skepticism about the reality of the floor? No. He stands up, and everything is fine. "But he can't prove that the floor exists!!!" So what? p=0.99999999999999999999999999999 is good enough. And, if he really did have such problems, he should see a psychiatrist.

Is it useful to take our perception of reality as good enough? Sure, because through that route people invent medicines, provide desirable goods, better homes, greater incomes, better philosophy, and overall greater prosperity. It's not at all absurd to assume that one's perception of reality tends to be correct, and although at times people make perceptual mistakes, they can still update. "But there's some chance that the radical skeptics might be true!!" Sure, but again, who cares. I'll keep making practical decisions in the real enough world, and in return I'll keep making real enough profits.


The Usefulness of Radical Subjectivism
Finally, although relying on a subjectivist reality implies that nothing can be ascertained with certainty, that failure isn't a serious problem for some people, and for most people, that problem is ignored--e.g. "God does exist" v. "God does not exist." Note: p=1 in their claims. How can this problem resolved?

(1) Most people think what they want and continue with their lives as usual (because thinking is costly).

(2) Some people approximate the Truth by comparing varying degrees of evidence for different claims--dependent upon their criteria of truth (e.g. Scientific Method, various theories, prior assumptions like "what I observe is real enough").

    For example, consider these claims: 2+2=4 is true v. Judeo-Christian God exists. Recall how some people use different criteria for determining the truth, or 'truth', of each, and notice how some groups flip their standard of evidence/Truth for each claim. This dilemma can be explained: some people don't care to update their analytical tools or to beat down their cognitive biases. It might be too costly for them.

Nevertheless, even within 'subjectivist' reality, some claims are truer than others, but that ascertaining of truth is dependent upon one's criteria for truth, so discrepancies in the claims of truth have causes which can be identified and examined. The Scientist/Philosopher is already on his way to rendering this world more sensible while the radical skepticist or radical subjectivist would still be stuck on stage 1: assume reality is real enough. "Never!" Ask a radical subjectivist if Nazism is morally good and watch how little usefulness is gleaned for their stance. Watch the unwillingness to compare the validity of various claims. In the real enough world, some people can hold wrong moral claims (where p = 0.99999999999), and we can know this by filtering claims through sensible criteria.


In short, it still doesn't follow that our entire sensory mechanism should be completely doubted, thus we should seriously question our perception constantly. Reality-doubters and radical subjectivists need not be taken seriously (and here I am, wasting time, taking them seriously).


[god damn, 1 hour spent on that. Back to BBS-prohibition mode].




BBS, YOU'VE BEEN TRAPPED!!!


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