Abortion

[suggs]

This Thread Needs A Huge Gang Bang.

[wicked]

This thread needs to either get back on topic or die.

[Napoleon Ier]

This thread needs to either get back on topic or die.

Pro-choice people, I stand corrected.

[PLAYER57832]

I would disagee here. LAWS are not the best way to eliminate abortions. LAWS are the best way to limit abortions ...

Actually, no, the best way too limit abortions is telling kids how to prevent getting pregnant.

Not quite, it's getting people (kids and adults) to be able to prevent them from getting pregnant if, of course, we are assuming that they aren't trying to get pregnant in the first place. But that would be the best way to reduce abortions. Yes I'm being a nit pick on verbs here. If we can reduce the need for abortions in the first place then we don't have to worry about them in the first place.[/quote]
Actually, you hit on one point. Some ARE trying to get pregnant. And education is still the answer. That, AND ... well, that will get off topic, so let's just leave it that if you have a good sex education class, it will prevent teen pregnancies and help prevent ALL unwanted pregnancies. That will reduce abortions.

Laws limit a few, but drive far more underground.

[Napoleon Ier]

Right, yeah, but lynchings of negroes, for example, were still done underground after they were banned, this still doesn't justify turning around and making it all perfectly legal, yah?

[tzor]

especially the most extreeme cases where alternates are available and to ensure that the "right" of an abortion doesn't trump established prodedures in law and medicine.

I think you are off track a bit here. About the only time there is an "alternative" readily available is prior to conception. Afterward, it is medicine that should trump law, but often doesn't. Too often, legislatures, without medical training, without ever having been in a situation where an abortion was reccommended, decide THEY (bowing to radical constituancy) and not the person, their doctor and clergy know best.

That's not what I am talking about. You have to understand I'm from New York the pre-born killing capital of the United States. It may be that your laws may vary. I realy hope they do.

Abortion is, one would assume a medical procedure. In fact it's a medical operation. When the doctor sprays your skin with liquid nitrogen to remove a wart that's technicaly a medical operation. As such there are supposed to be a number of medical principles that are enshined in law that must take place. You are supposed to get, read and sign off on all the infinite posibilities and potential complications on the operation, for example.

There's no such things for abortions. Your "right" to an abortion actually trumps your right to know about how bad you can be messed up if the doctor messes up. Spitzer's bill wanted to lower the qualifications of who can perform these procedures, and because of the "secrecy" of the right to an abortion, bad doctors could get away scott free unlike any other area of the closely covered medical profession.

Then there is the right to know. A child can't get an asprin without parental consent, but can get an abortion without parental notification. That's not some idle problem, post abortion complications could get ugly real fast because the doctors are not aware of the child's recent abortion procedure.

If a child comes into a regular doctor with physical signs of abuse the doctor is required by law to report it. If a child goes into an abortion clinic with signs of physical abuse the abortionist doesn't have to report anything! Potential child abuse can be unreported and uncorrected. The right to an abortion apparently doesn't give the child any other rights in fact it seems to take away their rights, leaving them in a possible abusive situation of molestation.

There are laws in place and common practices, written with response from the medical community that cover soup to nuts but because abortion is a right they get thrown out the window.

And, will add that the Roman Catholic Church is one of the staunchest opponents to both ANY form of birth control (except rythm, for married folks) and most sex education.

(OK Side Rant for a second. It's not rythm. It's "Natural Family Planning." I'm not completely familiar with it but I know it involves a lot of complex stuff for the ladies to determine their best ovulation time. NFP can also be reversed to give the best chance for a woman to conceive.)

Now that I'm done with the rant, even though I'm a Roman Catholic it doesn't mean that I'm in favor or in agreement with the Church's desire to impose its moral discipline on others.

"Abstenance only" is a questionable notion at best. I generally prefer something I call "abstenance first." There are a number of reasons for this approach. In the first place there are developmental differences between young adults and adults in several areas of the brain that opposes ones normal impulsive behaviors. Some things really do need a "just say no" approach, like drugs, texting while driving, and sex.

Will that be 100% effective? No, but then again we are really talking about reducing the numbers. Then you have to follow up with education. It has to be unbiased morally neutral and most of all factual. The idea is "Just say no" should be first and "Just say no without a condom" should be second.

Then you have the issue with adults, who really need even more education. Contraception can and should be a viable alternative for single women, not just to avoid pregnancy but for other valid medical reasons. Other methods which basically work by preventing implantation start moving over to the moral gray area. Education and Contraception are absolutely vital.

That's sort of why you will see most so called "pro-choice" lobbyists go through the roof when someone suggests education especially in the state of most feti prior to an abortion procedure, or the potential pain and suffering the procedure does to the fetus. It's sort of ironic that the biggest provider of abortions in the US - planned parenthood - was also giving out the most cheapest and ineffective condoms on the market (according to consumer reports).

[tzor]

Actually, you hit on one point. Some ARE trying to get pregnant. And education is still the answer.

This is important why education needs to be comprehensive. Yes there are some people who for a variety of reasons want to get pregnant, just like there are people who want to over eat and people who want to starve themselves. It doesn't validate the need for education.

Just as the posibility that someone may suffer from anexoria nervosa means one should not get education on a proper diet and proper techniques to avoid obesity.

[muy_thaiguy]

Just to throw this out there:
Anorexic Person=They beat obesity.
Obese Person=They beat Anorexia.

Carry on.

[Snorri1234]

Yes, because kids are so fucking ignorant they need lectures from fat, balding men or women with facial hair telling them with audiovisual aids how having sex can lead (drum roll) to pregnancy.

Yes actually. Kids are really, really ignorant about these things. I mean, there are even adults in developed countries who think coïtus interruptus is a good way of birth control or sex while standing up will make you less likely to become pregnant. You think the kids will figure it all out themselves?
I've heard stories about college-kids asking a professor if double-bagging it (putting two condoms on) is a good idea. Fucking double bagging!? These people are 20 years old!

Or how about those kids who have unprotected anal and oral sex because they think they can't get diseases from it?

There is no denying the fact that comprhensive sex education works. You're an idiot for denying it.

[Snorri1234]

I would disagee here. LAWS are not the best way to eliminate abortions. LAWS are the best way to limit abortions ...

Actually, no, the best way too limit abortions is telling kids how to prevent getting pregnant.

Not quite, it's getting people (kids and adults) to be able to prevent them from getting pregnant if, of course, we are assuming that they aren't trying to get pregnant in the first place. But that would be the best way to reduce abortions. Yes I'm being a nit pick on verbs here. If we can reduce the need for abortions in the first place then we don't have to worry about them in the first place.

Yeah yeah, you got the point I think.

[jiminski]

Right, yeah, but lynchings of negroes, for example, were still done underground after they were banned, this still doesn't justify turning around and making it all perfectly legal, yah?

it's all about balance Nappy.
I can not see that random, illegal lynching of people, on the grounds of a race, can be of any real benefit to a mature society. (perhaps you can educate me on this ?)
Abortion however, as distasteful, horrific and emotionally scarring as i am sure it is, does have a real tangible benefit.
And yes benefit to the aborted potential child! Even on your terms - In the case of the morning-after pill: the soul of the egg and the sperm will go to heaven and for all eternity sit with God in Paradise.. it is a pure soul, unblemished by sin!
And on most peoples terms - the parents will have more chance to gain resources and knowledge to foster another child; creating a child with more chance at being loved!

Now we can talk about when a child should have 'rights' based around the point at which it is 'viable' or capable of functioning/surviving outside of the womb. However you have already stated that, even at the point where there is only the potential for conception, to take steps to prevent pregnancy is murder.

This seems rather extreme, packed with inconsistencies and very ill-prepared as the basis of an argument....
but then it is based upon interpretations of Gods word and 'Faith' thereof in celibate or repressed gay men. Men who either hate women for the temptation which their flesh holds or hold no value for them as they prefer a little fraternal bum-fun!
I would say that these peoples view on this is largely irrelevant.

You would generally rebuke idealism of such a shallow and self-serving nature Nappy... you do not as you have been brain-washed by the touch of the holy-spirit! And i venture that this is little more than a psychosomatic inducement to revelry in all things primordial, dressed in the clothes of a civilised man.

Actually i think that is lovely and wish you all the best with it .. but when this is nurtured and corrupted by more intelligent men than you.. then you become a danger to yourself.

[Snorri1234]

There's no such things for abortions. Your "right" to an abortion actually trumps your right to know about how bad you can be messed up if the doctor messes up. Spitzer's bill wanted to lower the qualifications of who can perform these procedures, and because of the "secrecy" of the right to an abortion, bad doctors could get away scott free unlike any other area of the closely covered medical profession.

Yeah, that's just not right. Qualifications should be high, but on the other hand I also think that making them too high might make the number of people who can actually do it so low that the option of abortion becomes too difficult.

Then there is the right to know. A child can't get an asprin without parental consent, but can get an abortion without parental notification. That's not some idle problem, post abortion complications could get ugly real fast because the doctors are not aware of the child's recent abortion procedure.

Yeah I understand, however, I think a doctor should actually know such things. Here in the Netherlands we're experimenting with a digital medical history, including abortions, so that a doctor will know. This thing is more a problem of bad communication with the patient than the not telling of it to the parents.
(There are cases where the not-telling of the kid having an abortion has a very good reason though, some people (always religious freaks it seems) rather kill their kids than let them have an abortion or let them live afterwards. It's a pretty fucked up world sometimes.)

If a child comes into a regular doctor with physical signs of abuse the doctor is required by law to report it. If a child goes into an abortion clinic with signs of physical abuse the abortionist doesn't have to report anything! Potential child abuse can be unreported and uncorrected. The right to an abortion apparently doesn't give the child any other rights in fact it seems to take away their rights, leaving them in a possible abusive situation of molestation.

Again, I don't know if the telling-part will help. Certainly if a child is abused, the abuse will only become higher when they discover she had an abortion. I think doctors themselves are once again the ones who need to handle this. Maybe schedule an appointment with a different doctor so that he can report it?

"Abstenance only" is a questionable notion at best. I generally prefer something I call "abstenance first." There are a number of reasons for this approach. In the first place there are developmental differences between young adults and adults in several areas of the brain that opposes ones normal impulsive behaviors. Some things really do need a "just say no" approach, like drugs, texting while driving, and sex.

I more in favor of a little more liberal approach. The "just say no" approach is usually for telling them they should never do it, but I think "don't do it unless you really feel ready for it, don't let the other person pressure you" or something like that is better. I think it makes a difference as kids won't try it because it's "forbidden".

Will that be 100% effective? No, but then again we are really talking about reducing the numbers. Then you have to follow up with education. It has to be unbiased morally neutral and most of all factual. The idea is "Just say no" should be first and "Just say no without a condom" should be second.
Then you have the issue with adults, who really need even more education. Contraception can and should be a viable alternative for single women, not just to avoid pregnancy but for other valid medical reasons. Other methods which basically work by preventing implantation start moving over to the moral gray area. Education and Contraception are absolutely vital.

I agree completely. You're a very sensible man, tzor.

[Frigidus]

All right, you know what, I'll admit it if nobody else will. I hate babies, that's why I support abortion.

[Snorri1234]

All right, you know what, I'll admit it if nobody else will. I hate babies, that's why I support abortion.

Shit. You exposed your secret agenda.

[Neoteny]

All right, you know what, I'll admit it if nobody else will. I hate babies, that's why I support abortion.

Goddamn, do I hate babies... obnoxious, loud, stinky, sticky, fat, little monsters... I will not have one if I can help it.

[tzor]

Babies are cute.
They are so cute.
They are gosh darn cuddly cute.
They are ... what is that I smell?
Until they need a diaper change.

[Napoleon Ier]

Right, yeah, but lynchings of negroes, for example, were still done underground after they were banned, this still doesn't justify turning around and making it all perfectly legal, yah?

it's all about balance Nappy.
I can not see that random, illegal lynching of people, on the grounds of a race, can be of any real benefit to a mature society. (perhaps you can educate me on this ?)
Abortion however, as distasteful, horrific and emotionally scarring as i am sure it is, does have a real tangible benefit.
And yes benefit to the aborted potential child! Even on your terms - In the case of the morning-after pill: the soul of the egg and the sperm will go to heaven and for all eternity sit with God in Paradise.. it is a pure soul, unblemished by sin!
And on most peoples terms - the parents will have more chance to gain resources and knowledge to foster another child; creating a child with more chance at being loved!

Now we can talk about when a child should have 'rights' based around the point at which it is 'viable' or capable of functioning/surviving outside of the womb. However you have already stated that, even at the point where there is only the potential for conception, to take steps to prevent pregnancy is murder.

This seems rather extreme, packed with inconsistencies and very ill-prepared as the basis of an argument....
but then it is based upon interpretations of Gods word and 'Faith' thereof in celibate or repressed gay men. Men who either hate women for the temptation which their flesh holds or hold no value for them as they prefer a little fraternal bum-fun!
I would say that these peoples view on this is largely irrelevant.

You would generally rebuke idealism of such a shallow and self-serving nature Nappy... you do not as you have been brain-washed by the touch of the holy-spirit! And i venture that this is little more than a psychosomatic inducement to revelry in all things primordial, dressed in the clothes of a civilised man.

Actually i think that is lovely and wish you all the best with it .. but when this is nurtured and corrupted by more intelligent men than you.. then you become a danger to yourself.

Nope,I just believe that protection of the homo sapiens regardless of his state of consciousness is necessary. Not 'Faith', nor Catholic ideology...I differ from it in that the soul never enters into the justification of my answer.

In re your tangible benefit bollocks; slavery had huge tangible benefits for the US economy. Did this make it any less immoral? No, it made it moral and practical, but didn't re-inforce it's morailty.

[Snorri1234]

ATHIEST DAD: Hey!
ATHIEST MOM: Hi, honey! I'm pregnant again. I guess I'll just get another abortion, since "fetuses don't count as human life."
ATHIEST DAD: Okay, get as many abortions as you want!
ATHIEST MOM: Oh, and don't go in the bedroom.
ATHIEST DAD: Why not?
ATHIEST MOM: There are two gay men fucking eachother in there.
ATHIEST DAD: Why are they here?
ATHIEST MOM: I wanted to watch them do it for awhile. They just aren't finished yet.
ATHIEST DAD: Okay, that's fine with me!

God, I just love FSDST.

[Napoleon Ier]

ATHIEST DAD: Hey!
ATHIEST MOM: Hi, honey! I'm pregnant again. I guess I'll just get another abortion, since "fetuses don't count as human life."
ATHIEST DAD: Okay, get as many abortions as you want!
ATHIEST MOM: Oh, and don't go in the bedroom.
ATHIEST DAD: Why not?
ATHIEST MOM: There are two gay men fucking eachother in there.
ATHIEST DAD: Why are they here?
ATHIEST MOM: I wanted to watch them do it for awhile. They just aren't finished yet.
ATHIEST DAD: Okay, that's fine with me!

God, I just love FSDST.

You spelled atheist wrong.

[Snorri1234]

ATHIEST DAD: Hey!
ATHIEST MOM: Hi, honey! I'm pregnant again. I guess I'll just get another abortion, since "fetuses don't count as human life."
ATHIEST DAD: Okay, get as many abortions as you want!
ATHIEST MOM: Oh, and don't go in the bedroom.
ATHIEST DAD: Why not?
ATHIEST MOM: There are two gay men fucking eachother in there.
ATHIEST DAD: Why are they here?
ATHIEST MOM: I wanted to watch them do it for awhile. They just aren't finished yet.
ATHIEST DAD: Okay, that's fine with me!

God, I just love FSDST.

You spelled atheist wrong.

Did not, that was the quote.
http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/top100.aspx?archive=1

Didn't think that person was the sharpest tool in the shed anyway.

[jiminski]

Right, yeah, but lynchings of negroes, for example, were still done underground after they were banned, this still doesn't justify turning around and making it all perfectly legal, yah?

it's all about balance Nappy.
I can not see that random, illegal lynching of people, on the grounds of a race, can be of any real benefit to a mature society. (perhaps you can educate me on this ?)
Abortion however, as distasteful, horrific and emotionally scarring as i am sure it is, does have a real tangible benefit.
And yes benefit to the aborted potential child! Even on your terms - In the case of the morning-after pill: the soul of the egg and the sperm will go to heaven and for all eternity sit with God in Paradise.. it is a pure soul, unblemished by sin!
And on most peoples terms - the parents will have more chance to gain resources and knowledge to foster another child; creating a child with more chance at being loved!

Now we can talk about when a child should have 'rights' based around the point at which it is 'viable' or capable of functioning/surviving outside of the womb. However you have already stated that, even at the point where there is only the potential for conception, to take steps to prevent pregnancy is murder.

This seems rather extreme, packed with inconsistencies and very ill-prepared as the basis of an argument....
but then it is based upon interpretations of Gods word and 'Faith' thereof in celibate or repressed gay men. Men who either hate women for the temptation which their flesh holds or hold no value for them as they prefer a little fraternal bum-fun!
I would say that these peoples view on this is largely irrelevant.

You would generally rebuke idealism of such a shallow and self-serving nature Nappy... you do not as you have been brain-washed by the touch of the holy-spirit! And i venture that this is little more than a psychosomatic inducement to revelry in all things primordial, dressed in the clothes of a civilised man.

Actually i think that is lovely and wish you all the best with it .. but when this is nurtured and corrupted by more intelligent men than you.. then you become a danger to yourself.

Nope,I just believe that protection of the homo sapiens regardless of his state of consciousness is necessary. Not 'Faith', nor Catholic ideology...I differ from it in that the soul never enters into the justification of my answer.

In re your tangible benefit bollocks; slavery had huge tangible benefits for the US economy. Did this make it any less immoral? No, it made it moral and practical, but didn't re-inforce it's morailty.

I like the sentiment that all human life is precious, i really do!

But you have adjusted the arena of the debate slightly now, can we clarify your position please?
-abortion is murder
-Morning-after pill is murder
-contraceptive pill is murder?
-condoms Murder?
-Various contraceptive ?

I am sorry, also i'm not sure what you mean in the last sentence:

No, it made it moral and practical, but didn't re-inforce it's morailty.

So slavery is practical and moral?

I'm really not being facetious there i don't think you meant to say what you said.. or perhaps you are being ironic?

[Snorri1234]

I like the sentiment that all human life is precious, i really do!

Can we clarify your position though please?
-abortion is murder
-Morning-after pill is murder
-contraceptive pill is murder?
-condoms Murder?
-Various contraceptive ?

You forgot - Death Penalty, absolutely okay.

[jiminski]

I like the sentiment that all human life is precious, i really do!

Can we clarify your position though please?
-abortion is murder
-Morning-after pill is murder
-contraceptive pill is murder?
-condoms Murder?
-Various contraceptive ?

You forgot - Death Penalty, absolutely okay.

hehe shhh! I'm coming to that!

[Napoleon Ier]

Right, yeah, but lynchings of negroes, for example, were still done underground after they were banned, this still doesn't justify turning around and making it all perfectly legal, yah?

it's all about balance Nappy.
I can not see that random, illegal lynching of people, on the grounds of a race, can be of any real benefit to a mature society. (perhaps you can educate me on this ?)
Abortion however, as distasteful, horrific and emotionally scarring as i am sure it is, does have a real tangible benefit.
And yes benefit to the aborted potential child! Even on your terms - In the case of the morning-after pill: the soul of the egg and the sperm will go to heaven and for all eternity sit with God in Paradise.. it is a pure soul, unblemished by sin!
And on most peoples terms - the parents will have more chance to gain resources and knowledge to foster another child; creating a child with more chance at being loved!

Now we can talk about when a child should have 'rights' based around the point at which it is 'viable' or capable of functioning/surviving outside of the womb. However you have already stated that, even at the point where there is only the potential for conception, to take steps to prevent pregnancy is murder.

This seems rather extreme, packed with inconsistencies and very ill-prepared as the basis of an argument....
but then it is based upon interpretations of Gods word and 'Faith' thereof in celibate or repressed gay men. Men who either hate women for the temptation which their flesh holds or hold no value for them as they prefer a little fraternal bum-fun!
I would say that these peoples view on this is largely irrelevant.

You would generally rebuke idealism of such a shallow and self-serving nature Nappy... you do not as you have been brain-washed by the touch of the holy-spirit! And i venture that this is little more than a psychosomatic inducement to revelry in all things primordial, dressed in the clothes of a civilised man.

Actually i think that is lovely and wish you all the best with it .. but when this is nurtured and corrupted by more intelligent men than you.. then you become a danger to yourself.

Nope,I just believe that protection of the homo sapiens regardless of his state of consciousness is necessary. Not 'Faith', nor Catholic ideology...I differ from it in that the soul never enters into the justification of my answer.

In re your tangible benefit bollocks; slavery had huge tangible benefits for the US economy. Did this make it any less immoral? No, it made it moral and practical, but didn't re-inforce it's morailty.

I like the sentiment that all human life is precious, i really do!

But you have adjusted the arena of the debate slightly now, can we clarify your position please?
-abortion is murder
-Morning-after pill is murder
-contraceptive pill is murder?
-condoms Murder?
-Various contraceptive ?

I am sorry, also i'm not sure what you mean in the last sentence:

No, it made it moral and practical, but didn't re-inforce it's morailty.

So slavery is practical and moral?

I'm really not being facetious there i don't think you meant to say what you said.. or perhaps you are being ironic?

Any method of contraception which prevents a feritilised egg, an independant organism with a disticnt genetic identity, from dividing and growing is murder.

Condoms/barrier methods and contraceptive pills which use hormones to prevent ovulation are not, and although opposed to them on a personal level, I cannot recognise they should be outlawed on libertarian grounds.

Murder is always wrong, to varying degrees.

The Death Penalty is just retribution, vindicates the Law and may act as a deterrent.

[radiojake]

Abortion should be mandatory ...