More 911 problems.Twin Towers. this government says pancaked

[reminisco]

I'm definitely mellowing with age. My immediate reaction on seeing this thread was like seeing a long lost friend.

More fantastical, absurd, UTTER BOLLOCKS conspirscy nonsense.

As William18 would say:

YAY.

i wish i could mellow about it, but i can't.

it makes me see red every single time. the kind of rage that mellows only when knuckles are so swollen from punching that i just can't anymore.

you punch walls enough, you find where the studs are -- so you punch them, and don't leave holes in the wall you have to repair later.

it makes me need to go to the boxing club... have a nice, long sparring bout. let the pain i receive act as a baptism, and the punches i deliver serve as the vengeance i've never taken upon the liars who dishonor my friends and family by spitting on their graves with these conspiracy lies.

[suggs]

You stoned on the good shit?

[reminisco]

You stoned on the good shit?

nope, stone cold sober.

i'm actually a lot more passive when i'm inebriated.

cause i know i'm not worth shit in a fight if i'm drunk.

[reminisco]

the conspiracy lies make me think of the last words of those friends of mine who didn't survive the WTC attack.

i see their faces.

and i imagine their horror at the terrible way they were dispatched from this life.

and i want satisfaction.

[suggs]

Erm..that was a joke, you are so cleary not stoned, you're so angry you make me seem nice.

But anger is good-destroy those conspiracy idiots-they are a disgrace to those innocent people who were killed by MURDEROUS TERRORISTS.

[heavycola]

True dat though, it is disrespectful to the memories not only of the civilians that died but also to the public servants - firemen, police, politicians, for example - that did all they could to fix it. The monsters responsible must be hooting with laughter watching the conspiracy gimboids point their stubby little fingers entirely the wrong way.

[SolidLuigi]

reminisco, heavycola, and suggs, I respect you three, you all have funny posts at times and intelligent ones too. So I don't want you guys to think I'm lashing out or pissed off or whatever with this post, but I want to clarify something:

I don't think that all conspiracy people are disrespecting the victims of 9/11. It matters what they are theorizing in their individual theories. I personally don't believe what the 9/11 commission tells us. I'm not going to use this to try to push my views on what happened, but to show a different viewpoint and how it isn't disrespectful.

A high school friend of mine lost his father in the attack, so I know the weight of what happened, not as much as you do reminisco and I am sorry for your losses.

If I had a theory that Russian terrorists, or Japanese terrorists, or Domestic terrorists, or any kind of terrorists besides muslim(Al Queda) did it how would that be disrespectful? In all of those theories, the position/values of the victims do not change. They were still innocent American civilians that were murdered in an attack, and the brave firefighters and police officers still courageously disregarded their safety to save as many people as they could.

In comparison, if someone is murdered, the police are going to look at every suspect possible until the evidence proves beyond reasonable doubt that one of the suspects is guilty. Whether they have 5 theories or 500 theories of what happened, no respect is lost for the victim, if anything, more respect is given the deeper they dig, because they are spending their time and energy trying to bring the criminal to justice.

If you look at the events of 9/11 as a crime, which every terrorist attack is, then Osama Bin Laden and these 19 hi-jackers are the defendants in the court case. In my view they haven't been proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Just a few of the contradicting pieces of information are: at least 7 of the hi-jackers are still alive. There is a tape of Osama taking credit for the attack, but there is also one of him denying any involvement. This becomes very interesting when you see that on the FBI's Wanted poster for Osama, the 9/11 attack is not listed as one of the crimes he is wanted for. Chief of Investigative Publicity of the FBI Rex Tomb said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Osama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.” There is video of a conference where the Taliban offered to help us find Osama if we could show them evidence that he was involved. We ignored this offer and just invaded the country and destroyed them and have failed to find Osama.

If the FBI is unwilling to say Osama did it, why should I have to commit to the belief he did?

My main point of this post was not to start a debate about what happened and what didn't, that's been done before and is tiring. I'm just trying to show that not agreeing with the accepted scenario doesn't necessarily disrespect the victims. There are many survivors and friends and family of victims that don't accept the 9/11 commission. I don't think they are disrespecting their loved ones, they are trying to find out all the facts.

If someone has a theory that has blatant lies about victims, or says the victims deserved it, or in anyway changes the victims role to anything other than just innocent people, then I will be right there next to you attacking them for disrespecting the victims.

Again I'm not attacking you guys, I just was trying to show my view.

[heavycola]

luigi - I hear what you're saying, And maybe honest doubt isn't, of itself, disrespectful. And perhaps there is more to it than just osama.

but...
OK, take the JFK conspiracy theories. if you ever look at the evidence that suggests it was oswald, it's staggering. But people have ignored this for one or two main reasons, i think:

1) because the idea that a single nutcase could be responsible for an event that had such enormous ramifications is pretty scary. There MUST be shadowy forces at work, etc.
2) We live in an increasingly scientific age, one in which our myths and gods are becoming increasingly sidelined. Conspiracy theories help plug that gap. It is reassuring, in a way, to believe that there are higher forces still in control, that these momentous events are not just the product of deranged, evil or confused little people.

I hope that doesn't sound patronising, it's only a personal opinion.
Where I think 9/11 theories DO become disrespectful is the way they necessarily implicate so many public servants - the witnesses at the pentagon, the NY port authority, the police and firemen at ground zero, the bureaucrats and politicians that would have had to be in on it...

So sure there are more questions to be answered, i agree entirely. But when they implicate thousands of people... well i think that is not on.

[SolidLuigi]

yeah, I agree. I still don't have a theory of my own, I doubt the government did it themselves because of the reasons you gave. I don't think I've seen enough evidence to accuse any one person or group in a theory so I don't have a theory. I just find too many parts of the commission conflicting for it to sit with my conscience.

[reminisco]

Solid.

i respect you.

i'm not going to bother reading your post, cause i know what it's going to be about. i've read it all so many, many times.

and i've gotten to the point where i'm emotionally burnt out by it.

you need to realize something about where i'm coming from, in terms of respect. i would have enlisted a long time ago if there was any guarantee whatsoever that i could go fight in Afghanistan exclusively. I want nothing to do with Iraq. and now i'm getting too old.

and you understand where that desire comes to fight, right? it's not because the USA got attacked (even though it is). it's because they killed my friends. they were TRYING to kill my dad. he got away.

this is something i can't let go of. i can't stop being angry about this. i can't stop thinking that this is a real war, one that's been going on for years but for us it's become a lot more clear.

now, using logic, reason, and science, it has been demonstrated using Occum's Razor that official account of the events of 9/11 are as close to accurate historical record as our human means of collecting information allow.

in history, there was a lot less 'fragments' of info, as there are today, given the near infinite number of media sources. if you don't understand something, you can make it mean anything. you fear something, you often project it onto the task at hand.

it's not our government. and you have to understand why it hurts so much for you to tell me it is. because if it is the government. if that is really true, then i must take up arms against it.

and it insults me, my intelligence, my family, my friends, when blockheads go out and try to promulgate these lies with the zeal of a radical fundamentalist muslim soldier would.

so i'm sorry dog, but one case where the government is on our team, is on the whole terrorists trying TO FUCKING KILL US arena.

they don't always work on the problem the smartest way, but it's a real problem, and they're really trying. i know people who work in various government agencies. i know things that are very, VERY off the record, but that prove the existence of a foreign terrorist threat.

it's an easy thing to prove. it is impossible to verify the truth of the conspiracy plots because they still have yet to name anyone involved with such a conspiracy.

i know what is involved in making things up. and how hard it is to maintain a lie. there's no way the government could possibly pull it off. this isn't an Alan Moore graphic novel.

there's no way my friends, who i know very, very well, could be part of a system that is actively lying to the public and creating/reinforcing an artifice of lies about what actually happened. there's no way my friends would dishonor their dead friends in such a way.

and it upsets me so much, breaks my heart so much, to hear that the deadbeats these brilliant americans are working so hard to protect doubt all of their efforts and go so far as to CALL THEM TRAITOR! it's what the conspiracy lies do everytime. they call out the US government as a cabal of traitors.

no way. no way in hell.

i was there. i know that no matter what we have against each other, we are all AMERICANS. doesn't matter your color, background, religion, whatever... we're all goddamned americans and no one fucking comes in here and flies planes into our goddamned buildings, motherfuckers. no AMERICAN is going to do that.

people who think the gov't would are of the adolescent mind. i went through that whole phase too. loved X-Files, and theorizing about aliens and Area 51, etc. you'll grow up at some point, one can only hope. i understand the appeal. conspiracies are fun, intricate stories.

there's nothing fun about 9/11.

there were people running around on fire, from the the still burning jet fuel pouring down the elevator shafts, and blowing out the doors on the bottom level, where the underground mall was in WTC.

it has been demonstrated time and time again, the physics of the events, people behind it, etc. etc. it's all really the way they tell us it is.

[suggs]

TOO DAMN RIGHT. Best post I've read for a long time.

[reminisco]

thanks. sorry for all the typos. grammar/spelling errors left in.

i was very, very hungover this morning when i wrote it.

also, i just now noticed that heavycola basically said the same things in his own response to SolidLuigi. sorry for the redundancy. i should have read the posts previous first... instead of just launching into it. and i should have cleaned it up, editing wise. but was too tired then, and am too tired now.