Education in the USA

[Phatscotty]

[Phatscotty]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

Nah if you look at his original post he is clearly outlining liberal opinions on social issues; and accuses them of indoctrination.

He can try and back peddle all he like with this tangent. But as far as I am concerned this thread was answered pages ago.

I agree that this thread ended pages ago (since I ended it motherfucker).

Great. So what is your conclusion? America's education system leans to the right, or is it straight down the center? Or do we not have enough information to have an opinion one way or the other? And if it leans left, the education system can resist the temptation to crusade their political beliefs in minds that are sent to them for the specific purpose of molding?

[Lootifer]

Firstly @ Crispybits/Phatscotty/anyone else wondering about the relevant definitions of things in this thread.

Call it liberalism, leftism, whateverthefuckyoulikeism, THIS is the premise of this thread:

You are missing the correct perspective. But that's okay, you aren't in America and did not go through American education and do not have friends who all grew up to work in the education system, like I do

it is very true that the Left completely dominated our universities. Virtually all radicalism comes from the universities, but it's "education" so their radicalism gets mainstreamed through culture shock and emotional manipulation/control. There overall statement about Education in America is "we teach you what to think" and its NOT "we teach you how to think". That isn't to say there aren't great and wonderful teachers out there of either ideology, because there are. But it's the exception. You also need to understand I have witnessed first hand leftist brainwashing on more than a few occasions at universities and community colleges and high school I attended, my friends attended, my family attended.

If we can bring this angle full circle into how brainwashing political correctness is being indoctrinated into our children today, we see news stories everyday here in America, especially on local levels, of teachers calling students "murderers" for cutting a piece of paper into the shape of a gun, calling the police because a student bit a pop tart into the shape of a gun, suspending students for wearing 2nd amendment t-shirts, and expelling eagle scouts who left their rifle in the trunk of their car and did the right thing and notified someone that the situation needed to be corrected, but the panic came anyways. Our children are learning to fear the mention of the word "gun" in their schools, and those schools are dominated by the Left. I'm sure I don't have to go over the removal of God from schools, again, the Left makes the rules.

Like they say with gay marriage "just wait until the young people can vote, and it won't even be an issue anymore" the same can also be said for our right to bear arms "just wait until the young people can vote, and it won't even be an issue anymore" Because, as all young people who are indoctrinated will tell you (just ask them) they know all about the world they have never stepped a foot into, and are more than willing to confront their parents and elders about how they don't know anything, and their ways are wrong, and the young people who have no experience know what's best. It's the mark of brainwash

And yes that is happening. Students are failing more and more. In New York some high schools are producing graduates at levels of 80% that are illiterate. And yes the test are also changing. They are being "standardized", and the name of that program is Common Core if you want to understand what I'm talking about here

Great. So what is your conclusion? America's education system leans to the right, or is it straight down the center? Or do we not have enough information to have an opinion one way or the other? And if it leans left, the education system can resist the temptation to crusade their political beliefs in minds that are sent to them for the specific purpose of molding?

My conclusion is that the main purpose and focus (and outcome/results) of education in the US is students are being taught how to learn, not what to learn.

[Phatscotty]

That's fine Loot. What do you base your conclusion on?

[Lootifer]

The information contained in this thread.

[Jippd]

If one knows how to learn can't they decide for themselves what to learn?

[chang50]

If one knows how to learn can't they decide for themselves what to learn?

Indeed,that is what education should be about,teaching critical thinking skills,not passing on 'American' or any other set of values.

[crispybits]

What does "leftist" mean then if it isn't "democrat" or "socialist" or "liberal" PS?

Leftism - The ideology of the political left.

Your point does not in any way mean I have been using terminology that I have not been using/trying not to use. Everyone is trying to use it

I'm just trying to work out the actual exact problem you're trying to point out here, because even if we replace any mention of liberal or whatever else in your posts with leftist, I'm still not sure what you think the problem is exactly.

In left-right politics, left-wing describes an outlook or specific position that accepts or supports social equality, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality. It typically involves a concern for those in society who are perceived as disadvantaged relative to others and an assumption that there are unjustified inequalities that need to be reduced or abolished.

The political terms Left and Right were coined during the French Revolution (1789–1799), referring to the seating arrangement in the Estates General: those who sat on the left generally opposed the monarchy and supported the revolution, including the creation of a republic and secularization, while those on the right were supportive of the traditional institutions of the Old Regime. Use of the term "Left" became more prominent after the restoration of the French monarchy in 1815 when it was applied to the "Independents".

The term was later applied to a number of movements, especially republicanism during the French Revolution, socialism, communism, and anarchism. Beginning in the last half of the Twentieth Century, the phrase left-wing has been used to describe an ever widening family of movements, including the civil rights movement, anti-war movements, and environmental movements, and finally being extended to entire parties, including the Democratic Party in the United States and the Labour Party in the United Kingdom. In two party systems, the terms "left" and "right" are now sometimes used as labels for the two parties, with one party designated as the "left" and the other "right", even when neither party is "left-wing" in the original sense of being opposed to the ruling class.

In your first couple of posts you mentioned radicalism and political corrrectness. If we're talking about political correctness gone mad type situations, like the teacher who decided that a pencil being used as a play gun in class was something to react strongly to, then I'd agree that sometimes the boundaries are overstepped, but to claim that the entire education system is indoctrinating kids into this level of political correctness seems ridiculous to me.

If you mean that kids are being indoctrinated into radicalism or anti-authoritarianism then you have some work cut out to explain why the majority of radicals within the history of our society are those with lesser educational status or achievement (example, blacks during the civil rights movement). You'll also have to describe how one indoctrinates ant-authoritarianism without also losing control of the minds they are teaching, as the schools themselves are one of the biggest authority figures, along with the parents, that kids have.

If you mean that kids are being indoctrinated into social equality, then I would ask if that is not a good thing? Do we not want future generations to be without forms of bigotry such as racism, homophobia, sectarianism between different religions, etc? Isn't a world where we tolerate differences between ideologies and ethnicities and the like (within reason - not saying we should defend things like religiously motivated violence/violent ideologies) going to be overall a better world than one where we teach future generations to distrust people different to them and divide society instead of acting in a co-operational way?

If you mean something else, then be clear about what you mean. Leftism is a term which can cover a HUGE number of different philosophies. I'm sure you don't mean that all left-wing thoughts are bad, so be more precise. What exactly is it that kids are being taught that you disagree with. I have my own guess, but I'm not going to post it because I want your answer without prompting. And before you say you already have you haven't as far as I can see, you've just posted rhetoric, which is fine if you've made the point already and you're backing it up, but it's very confusing to get down to the base issues based purely on that. No youtube videos, no "look what happened in this school" media reports, just in your own words what exactly is the ideology/philosophy you disagree with that is being pushed on kids?

[thegreekdog]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

Nah if you look at his original post he is clearly outlining liberal opinions on social issues; and accuses them of indoctrination.

He can try and back peddle all he like with this tangent. But as far as I am concerned this thread was answered pages ago.

I agree that this thread ended pages ago (since I ended it motherfucker).

Great. So what is your conclusion? America's education system leans to the right, or is it straight down the center? Or do we not have enough information to have an opinion one way or the other? And if it leans left, the education system can resist the temptation to crusade their political beliefs in minds that are sent to them for the specific purpose of molding?

Teachers lean left for two reasons: (1) anecdotal evidence; (2) teachers unions

Not indoctrination for three reasons: (1) doesn't work (e.g. Phatscotty, TGD); (2) no evidence of indoctrination or plan of indoctrination; (3) simpler reason teachers lean left (see (2) above).

[BigBallinStalin]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

no but the problem is that socialism is a beast that is hard to controll once you let it go. Politicians have the tendency to pull more and more power to themselves. Now overall this doesn't show a bad intent per sé. However the more power a politician has, the less he'll have the propensity to listen to what the opposition says. In extreme cases where socialism has progressed so far that the government has too much power, it often does lead to indoctrination.

But even in these cases the socialist leaders might not have bad intents. They want kids to learn good moral values. Though what they consider good moral values, may not be what others consider good moral values and that's where the conflict arrises.

An argument often used on the liberal side is that the government shouldn't teach kids moral values whatsoever. It's up to the parents to teach that to their children

Nonsense.

No nonsense, my country is an example of this. We have quite an extensive social system(mostly cuz of our strong cultural relations with France). When I went to high school we had to follow informational classes about ecological technologies and global warming the same way we had to follow classes about sex, anticonception, etc.
Now I personally had no problem with solar energy but they were even propagating bio-oil which is a horrible way of creating energy, yet they wanted to propagate it to 14-15 yo kids who don't really know that much of the world yet. And I call it propaganda cuz they told us all the advantages and barely any of the disadvantages, which is not exactly how you create a critical mind.

and if my example is enough, go read the books of Friedrich Hayek

You're being trolled. Just thought you should know!

[Symmetry]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

no but the problem is that socialism is a beast that is hard to controll once you let it go. Politicians have the tendency to pull more and more power to themselves. Now overall this doesn't show a bad intent per sé. However the more power a politician has, the less he'll have the propensity to listen to what the opposition says. In extreme cases where socialism has progressed so far that the government has too much power, it often does lead to indoctrination.

But even in these cases the socialist leaders might not have bad intents. They want kids to learn good moral values. Though what they consider good moral values, may not be what others consider good moral values and that's where the conflict arrises.

An argument often used on the liberal side is that the government shouldn't teach kids moral values whatsoever. It's up to the parents to teach that to their children

Nonsense.

No nonsense, my country is an example of this. We have quite an extensive social system(mostly cuz of our strong cultural relations with France). When I went to high school we had to follow informational classes about ecological technologies and global warming the same way we had to follow classes about sex, anticonception, etc.
Now I personally had no problem with solar energy but they were even propagating bio-oil which is a horrible way of creating energy, yet they wanted to propagate it to 14-15 yo kids who don't really know that much of the world yet. And I call it propaganda cuz they told us all the advantages and barely any of the disadvantages, which is not exactly how you create a critical mind.

and if my example is not enough, go read the books of Friedrich Hayek

As someone who grew up with one parent, and who took a job teaching orphans, I wonder why you you think that moral education has to be taught by parents.

[tzor]

Teachers lean left for two reasons: (1) anecdotal evidence; (2) teachers unions

I would add a third reason and with that modify the statement accordingly: (3) peer pressure

Thus would I modify it to "appear to lean left."

The social ways of both the left and the right generally tend to be different even at the moderate levels of the spectrum. The left side tends to personalize things more. A moderate person on the right may think the ideas of the moderate person on the left is wrong, but the moderate person on the left thinks that there is something wrong with the moderate person on the right. (It's one of the reasons I cannot tolerate the liberal talk radio channel on Sirius/XM for more than two minutes because it always seems to be a political Bevis and Butthead laugh at the conservative discussion.) When the moderate person is personally confronted as opposed to their ideas being confronted, they tend to clam up. In addition, when the general administration leans left, the person who leans right tends to put their professional career ahead of personal opinion. Even with tenure, various perks that make the job rewarding require the active participation of the administration and getting black listed by them because of political differences is the road to misery. So those who lean right generally clam up.

Remember the real pressure isn't to "lean left" but to "go with the system" and it is the system that leans left.

[Phatscotty]

If one knows how to learn can't they decide for themselves what to learn?

Indeed,that is what education should be about,teaching critical thinking skills,not passing on 'American' or any other set of values.

...right. Because nothing can be learned from history....we shouldn't teach anything about our country, our founding, or our values. Do you have a problem with all men being created equal as well?

That is exactly the attitude I have been talking about. That is how history is rewritten. Don't teach it, fill in the blanks with whatever you like.

Changs' statement is the spirit of Common Core.

[Phatscotty]

Teachers lean left for two reasons: (1) anecdotal evidence; (2) teachers unions

I would add a third reason and with that modify the statement accordingly: (3) peer pressure

Thus would I modify it to "appear to lean left."

The social ways of both the left and the right generally tend to be different even at the moderate levels of the spectrum. The left side tends to personalize things more. A moderate person on the right may think the ideas of the moderate person on the left is wrong, but the moderate person on the left thinks that there is something wrong with the moderate person on the right. (It's one of the reasons I cannot tolerate the liberal talk radio channel on Sirius/XM for more than two minutes because it always seems to be a political Bevis and Butthead laugh at the conservative discussion.) When the moderate person is personally confronted as opposed to their ideas being confronted, they tend to clam up. In addition, when the general administration leans left, the person who leans right tends to put their professional career ahead of personal opinion. Even with tenure, various perks that make the job rewarding require the active participation of the administration and getting black listed by them because of political differences is the road to misery. So those who lean right generally clam up.

Remember the real pressure isn't to "lean left" but to "go with the system" and it is the system that leans left.

In my words: The right thinks the left is wrong and wants to have a discussion. The left thinks the right is stupid, racist, and evil, and under those preconceived (learned in college even?) notions, any discussion on the matter is beneath them.

[Phatscotty]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

Nah if you look at his original post he is clearly outlining liberal opinions on social issues; and accuses them of indoctrination.

He can try and back peddle all he like with this tangent. But as far as I am concerned this thread was answered pages ago.

I agree that this thread ended pages ago (since I ended it motherfucker).

Great. So what is your conclusion? America's education system leans to the right, or is it straight down the center? Or do we not have enough information to have an opinion one way or the other? And if it leans left, the education system can resist the temptation to crusade their political beliefs in minds that are sent to them for the specific purpose of molding?

Teachers lean left for two reasons: (1) anecdotal evidence; (2) teachers unions

Not indoctrination for three reasons: (1) doesn't work (e.g. Phatscotty, TGD); (2) no evidence of indoctrination or plan of indoctrination; (3) simpler reason teachers lean left (see (2) above).

Okay, let's go down this evidence path. Let's just say there was evidence or indoctrination. What would you expect that evidence to look like? A video recording? A written letter? back n forth emails between 2 or more professors talking about indoctrination techniques? recorded conversations between 2 or more people in the teachers lounge? What would the evidence look like?

[tzor]

In my words: The right thinks the left is wrong and wants to have a discussion. The left thinks the right is stupid, racist, and evil, and under those preconceived (learned in college even?) notions, any discussion on the matter is beneath them.

Somewhat. Remember that I am talking about "moderates" here; extremes never want to have a discussion. While I won't go to the point of saying they always suggest that the other side is "stupid, racist, and evil" they tend to respond to arguments with "why do you hate X?" The left argument generally goes along the lines of ...

I like X
I propose Y to help X
You seem to not like Y
Therefore you must not like X
Why do you hate X so?

When the right argues
But Y really won't help X at all!

[Phatscotty]

What does "leftist" mean then if it isn't "democrat" or "socialist" or "liberal" PS?

Leftism - The ideology of the political left.

Your point does not in any way mean I have been using terminology that I have not been using/trying not to use. Everyone is trying to use it

I'm just trying to work out the actual exact problem you're trying to point out here, because even if we replace any mention of liberal or whatever else in your posts with leftist, I'm still not sure what you think the problem is exactly.

In left-right politics, left-wing describes an outlook or specific position that accepts or supports social equality, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality. It typically involves a concern for those in society who are perceived as disadvantaged relative to others and an assumption that there are unjustified inequalities that need to be reduced or abolished.

The political terms Left and Right were coined during the French Revolution (1789–1799), referring to the seating arrangement in the Estates General: those who sat on the left generally opposed the monarchy and supported the revolution, including the creation of a republic and secularization, while those on the right were supportive of the traditional institutions of the Old Regime. Use of the term "Left" became more prominent after the restoration of the French monarchy in 1815 when it was applied to the "Independents".

The term was later applied to a number of movements, especially republicanism during the French Revolution, socialism, communism, and anarchism. Beginning in the last half of the Twentieth Century, the phrase left-wing has been used to describe an ever widening family of movements, including the civil rights movement, anti-war movements, and environmental movements, and finally being extended to entire parties, including the Democratic Party in the United States and the Labour Party in the United Kingdom. In two party systems, the terms "left" and "right" are now sometimes used as labels for the two parties, with one party designated as the "left" and the other "right", even when neither party is "left-wing" in the original sense of being opposed to the ruling class.

In your first couple of posts you mentioned radicalism and political corrrectness. If we're talking about political correctness gone mad type situations, like the teacher who decided that a pencil being used as a play gun in class was something to react strongly to, then I'd agree that sometimes the boundaries are overstepped, but to claim that the entire education system is indoctrinating kids into this level of political correctness seems ridiculous to me.

I'll take your paragraphs on one at a time

I could show you how these boundaries are being overstepped, all over the country, a LOT more than "sometimes". There are over a dozen stories (that we know of) where similar instances to what you point out above have happened in the last 60 days. A few of them have already been sourced in this discussion, and a see a new one everyday/every other day.

We are beyond individuals overstepping, the system is overstepping. I've even made that claim it's their purpose.

[Woodruff]

Standardization =/= Liberal indoctrination...

I stated which point that has been reinforced. I even made it a special color. When I eventually show yet another example/intsance of liberal indoctrination, I will state it as such. This is about a teacher stating as a fact one of the points I made that started this whole thing.

Phatscotty: "It's no longer about teaching children how to think, it's about teaching children what to think".

Is it possible that you don't realize that she's NOT AT ALL saying what you believe she's saying with that quote? Because it's definitely not.

[Woodruff]

I'm not exactly sure where I'm gonna go with this yet, but I know some answers lie here.

It is from Dewey's own words that you can see his true intentions. He wrote and helped write the Humanist Manifesto after returning from a trip to meet with others of like mind in eastern europe. Two books he wrote tell how he planned to accomplish the goals laid out in the Humanist Manifesto through America's public school system. The first title is Faith in Education and the second is Democracy and Education.

B.F. Skinner jumped on the bandwagon, working to change the mold for American children through public schools and help that mold conform with many goals of the Humanist Manifesto. THE FATHER OF MODERN EDUCATION

John Dewey is recognized as the Father of modern education. The N.E.A. gave him high recognition for his works. Much of his changes to schools was made possible by the theory of evolution being so strongly accepted after the writings of Charles Darwin. John Dewey wrote a theory of education and democracy that was based on evolution.

The education theories of Dewey would not have been so acceptable to people had it not been for the previous acceptance of Darwin's Theory of Evolution.That theory was widely received around the world. Evolution praises change and declares the highest good is a positive change. Darwin's theory helped strengthen the ideas of relativism and positivism which had been around for ages but were reinforced by John Dewey.

John Dewey developed ideas of evolutionary democracy and evolutionary education and evolutionary law.

the rest

show

I can certainly understand why you would want to hide that behind a spoiler tag. You should've hidden it outside of this thread entirely.

[Woodruff]

The social ways of both the left and the right generally tend to be different even at the moderate levels of the spectrum. The left side tends to personalize things more. A moderate person on the right may think the ideas of the moderate person on the left is wrong, but the moderate person on the left thinks that there is something wrong with the moderate person on the right.

Wait, what? That's a highly insulting thing to say, frankly, and I don't know how you could even justify such a statement.

[Woodruff]

If one knows how to learn can't they decide for themselves what to learn?

Indeed,that is what education should be about,teaching critical thinking skills,not passing on 'American' or any other set of values.

...right. Because nothing can be learned from history....we shouldn't teach anything about our country, our founding, or our values. Do you have a problem with all men being created equal as well?

That is exactly the attitude I have been talking about. That is how history is rewritten. Don't teach it, fill in the blanks with whatever you like.

Changs' statement is the spirit of Common Core.

So Phatscotty is AGAINST the concept of critical thinking skills? I'm not sure why we should be surprised.

[Woodruff]

Teachers lean left for two reasons: (1) anecdotal evidence; (2) teachers unions

I would add a third reason and with that modify the statement accordingly: (3) peer pressure

Thus would I modify it to "appear to lean left."

The social ways of both the left and the right generally tend to be different even at the moderate levels of the spectrum. The left side tends to personalize things more. A moderate person on the right may think the ideas of the moderate person on the left is wrong, but the moderate person on the left thinks that there is something wrong with the moderate person on the right. (It's one of the reasons I cannot tolerate the liberal talk radio channel on Sirius/XM for more than two minutes because it always seems to be a political Bevis and Butthead laugh at the conservative discussion.) When the moderate person is personally confronted as opposed to their ideas being confronted, they tend to clam up. In addition, when the general administration leans left, the person who leans right tends to put their professional career ahead of personal opinion. Even with tenure, various perks that make the job rewarding require the active participation of the administration and getting black listed by them because of political differences is the road to misery. So those who lean right generally clam up.

Remember the real pressure isn't to "lean left" but to "go with the system" and it is the system that leans left.

In my words: The right thinks the left is wrong and wants to have a discussion. The left thinks the right is stupid, racist, and evil, and under those preconceived (learned in college even?) notions, any discussion on the matter is beneath them.

Evidence to the contrary is simply...Phatscotty.

[Woodruff]

Standardization =/= Liberal indoctrination...

I stated which point that has been reinforced. I even made it a special color. When I eventually show yet another example/intsance of liberal indoctrination, I will state it as such. This is about a teacher stating as a fact one of the points I made that started this whole thing.

Phatscotty: "It's no longer about teaching children how to think, it's about teaching children what to think".

Is it possible that you don't realize that she's NOT AT ALL saying what you believe she's saying with that quote? Because it's definitely not.

I was hoping I'd see someone else in the thread explaining this, but it didn't happen, so I will:

What she's saying is that "Teachers are forced to teach to the test.". THAT is why "it's about teaching children what to think" because teachers don't have time to do ANYTHING ELSE. They're essentially required to teach to the test. This has nothing at all to do with "teaching kids to be liberal", it has everything to do with "teaching to the test". It's really quite simple.

[Jippd]

If one knows how to learn can't they decide for themselves what to learn?

Indeed,that is what education should be about,teaching critical thinking skills,not passing on 'American' or any other set of values.

...right. Because nothing can be learned from history....we shouldn't teach anything about our country, our founding, or our values. Do you have a problem with all men being created equal as well?

That is exactly the attitude I have been talking about. That is how history is rewritten. Don't teach it, fill in the blanks with whatever you like.

Changs' statement is the spirit of Common Core.

Once one knows how to think they will decide for themselves what to learn. For some people that will be history. All history is important not just the history of any one specific nation but history of all nations and the world in general.

[tzor]

The social ways of both the left and the right generally tend to be different even at the moderate levels of the spectrum. The left side tends to personalize things more. A moderate person on the right may think the ideas of the moderate person on the left is wrong, but the moderate person on the left thinks that there is something wrong with the moderate person on the right.

Wait, what? That's a highly insulting thing to say, frankly, and I don't know how you could even justify such a statement.

If I had the time, I could write whole books on the subject.

In fact if I had the time ...

You do realize you just insulted me and not my position.

Damn it Woodruff, we need to take this shit on the road.

We could make a great political comedy team.