Do you consider Latter Day Saints (Mormons) to be Christians

[2dimes]

Which brings us back to the original question - what do you believe in?

I believe:

• I can fly...
• that children are our future...
• we put a man on the moon...
• that love is the answer...
• in magic, of a young girls heart...
• in life after love...
• in a favor of a good intention

How young? *waits for answer, ready to phone the authorities*

[2dimes]

At any rate, Beastly seems to have scared off Optimo, Static Ice seems to have switched from Mormons to Moonies, so what's next?

actually, if you payed attention that was 2dimes, I'm just answering stuff... (and the reason he started was cuz I commented on some things so you guys didn't have the wrong idea on stuff...

anyway go and carry on with mormonism...

What, how did I scare Optimisimo off?

I just wanted to ask some questions. Like, where did Joe Smith get the pistol and why didn't any of the known Masons on the sceane help him when he spoke the masonic code phrase asking for special assistance?

[rallison]

I think Nephilim had an excellent point. I said what it meant to me to be a Christian, I haven’t heard from anyone else yet. What does it mean to be a Christian?

Mainstream Christians define themselves as not just followers of Christ, but there redemption rest solely upon the death of Christ. It is a SETTLED issue.

If you have to be Married in a Temple to get to heaven, then why did Christ have to die?

A Christian believes that Christ is God in human form. That is why men killed him.

A Christian Believes in the Bible. and does not believe it has errors.

If you translate French or German into English do you get errors?


The book of Mormon is presented by the LDS church as "another testament of Jesus Christ"

Where do I find your concept of eternal marriage in the Book of Mormon?

Good points Beastly.
We also believe that our redemption rests solely upon the death of Christ. He died for our sins, and if it were not for Him, there is nothing we could do. He saves us.

About being married in the temple, it is similar to other ordinances of the gospel. In the bible it clearly states that we have to be baptized. If Christ died for us, why do we need to be baptized. Its the same answer. He established the church, and the church includes certain ordinances we should do.

We believe in the Bible as well. We believe that it contains the fullness of the gospel. We believe that any errors it might contain are mans errors, not God's. As far as translating goes, it is quite likely that you will get errors when you translate anything. I spoke only spanish for two years, and it happened many times to me. Languages are different, and you cant simply translate word for word.

As an example, McDonalds has the slogan "I'm loving it". They have had many problems translating this into different languages. In spanish, word for word translated it is "estoy amandolo", which sounds horrible in spanish. noone would say that. So their slogan in spanish is "me encanta", which in english means "it enchants me" very awkward in english. When they went to translate it in chinese, they put "i just like it", which doesnt mean the same thing.

Another example a few posts back when jay posted some scriptures from his bible. It's different then my King James version. Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying his bible is bad because it has modern english, but it is undeniably different. There is not any real difference in meaning in those verses he posted, but if anyone were to take that bible and translate it into another language, it would be significantly different from any other tranlations.

When I was in mexico, i ran into at least 10 different translations of the bible. why are there that many? because someone didn't agree with the translations that existed, so they did it again.

Yes the book or mormon is another testament. just like Mark is another testament of the life of Jesus next to Matthew, Luke and John. All four are good. Why do we need all four, isn't one enough?

The book of mormon never mentions "eternal marriage". it does mention, just like the bible, that what God joins, man cannot separate. (mark 10:9, matt 16:19) Just like the bible, it makes the point that "neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord" (1 cor 11:11)


Nephilim, you've asked a couple of times for a comparison between one of the Christian creeds and what we believe. I'm not super familiar with the nicean creed, but i'll see if i can find it somewhere on google, and i'll work on outlining some of the differences.


2dimes, as for why the masons didnt help, beats me If I see any i'll ask them. That would be interesting to hear their version of the events there, do you know what they say about it? I've never really heard anything, so i'm curious.

Beastly, do you speak other languages? I've been interested in learning french or german, and wondered if you liked one better or anything.

[mr. incrediball]

any religion is ok with me (before anyone points out one of my jay bashes, any religion is ok as far as religions go)

what i can't stand is cults like scientologists, who use life-saving as an excuse to tear people away from their families and spy on anyone who criticises them

(those who saw panorama on BBC1 last night will know what i mean)

[mr. incrediball]

A Christian Believes in the Bible. and does not believe it has errors.

then how come so many people have calculated the number of satan to be 616 rather than 666?

If you translate French or German into English do you get errors?

um... yes you do, depending on how complicated the piece of writing is.

[rallison]

Someone posted a bit ago, I dont remember who, and couldnt find it after a quick glance through the posts, and said that they couldnt see the answers to the big long articles of faith post. I went back and edited it so my answers are in green, hopefully that makes it a little bit clearer

[Avron]

I believe in a thing called love
Just listen to the rhythm of my heart

[Beastly]

Analogy

A business person comes to your door and tells you about this awesome orange juice he is selling... He tells you that it is full of nutritional value and will heal of many ailments. Full of all the vitamins and things you need for your body.

You try some of this orange juice, and it not only is good for you but it taste better than any orange juice you have ever tried. Your body is getting real healthy because the vitamins are working!!
You buy more and more, and have it everyday. In fact you invest into this business because it is doing very well on the market. You tell all your friends because you love them so much how good this orange juice is for you and that you want them to have some because it will help them. You tell your family and friends about this not because it will benefit you but because you love them so much.

Then one day you give someone some of your orange juice. They are really curious about it, and so you tell them all about it.
Then they tell you that they are orange growers and that they in fact produce orange juice. Its basically all made the same, out of oranges of course.

This person tells you that this "orange juice" has no oranges in it. You are dismayed and really cannot believe it. after all it has been so good for you, nobody ever told you that it actually didn't have oranges in it.. At this point you don't care. After all it is the color orange and it is Juice.
and it has added vitamins that make you healthy.


You see the mormons come to you with the book of Mormon, saying it is another testament of Jesus. The tell you

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Which they do, but... the Jesus is not the same as the Jesus in the bible, same with God and the holy spirit or ghost...example again..

Jesus is called the Son of God, and is portrayed as being one with God (John 10:30), being God (John 1:1-3), and even the Old Testament prophesies point to a "Son" that will be called "Mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6). He is to be worshiped as God (e.g. Luke 24:52) See also Philippians 2:5-7; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3. Jesus was begotten Not Made, and was of Virgin Birth. The Bible teaches that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and that Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus.


Mormons Jesus is "divine", but only in the sense of being an exalted man. He is not considered equal to the Father, therefore, is not to be worshiped in the same way as the Father. He was a created being, and separate from God the Father. Jesus is the "spirit brother" of Lucifer and, ultimately, all humans; his uniqueness was based on the fact that he was conceived physically by God the Father. Jesus Christ was conceived as the result of a physical union of God the Father and Mary.
References:
JS History 1:17


if you look up in my past post, the one on the articles of faith, I tried my best to show the difference in what the bible says and what the Mormons say.

They say that redemption is threw Christ..

what they don't say is that you have to do other things also..It is a fact that in the Mormon faith you will not go to heaven if you are not married in the Temple..
and just some more interesting info that is not shared, when you are married in the temple, the wife gives the husband a secret name, and if he doesn't call you by this new name, she will not be able to be there.

not only that but when they come and give you the book of Mormon... another testament of Christ, it has no mention of eternal marriage? How come they don't give you the other books that tell you just what are the ingredients of the "Orange Juice" because if you knew you might think twice about ingesting it.

The book of mormon does not have in it plural gods with wives, temple marriage, chance to repent after you die, temple rituals for the dead, and three levels of heaven.

they use one verse out of the bible to back up this levels in heaven, again no mention of this in the Book of mormon.

I can tell you by fact there are 3 heavens are 1. where the birds are up in the sky.. hence the name Terrestrial. another heaven is where the stars and moon are again the name Celestial, and then there is a heaven where god is. This is not just my point of view. but a obvious.. I don't know if it is explained in the bible. But it does talk about when the flood happened the Heavens opened up and it rained.

So yes it is Orange and it is Juice, and it has added vitamins but it is not the same basic Orange Juice.

[rallison]

What about baptism Beastly? Is it necessary? If it is, why? It's exactly the same thing you are saying about marriage. It is an ordinance, just like baptism.

[Dancing Mustard]

I believe in a thing called love
Just listen to the rhythm of my heart

See, I believe I can fly
I believe I can touch the sky

[Anarchist]

and that Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus.

That had to hurt! Poor Mary,

Beastly thats a very good arguement.
Though Personally I would still prefer the mormon version over the christian version. I do recognise the difference.

So now for the next question is Taoism and Tantrica part of the same religion?

[2dimes]

2dimes, as for why the masons didnt help, beats me If I see any i'll ask them. That would be interesting to hear their version of the events there, do you know what they say about it? I've never really heard anything, so i'm curious.

Most masons don't know what the lodge is doing outside thier own particular one, never mind history but I have never posed any questions regarding Joe to any I've spoke with, I might next time just for entertainment.

It's pretty cool that you know what I'm talking about without getting emotional about it.

To be honest I only know about the insident from reading it on a morman bashing site.

My personal theory is that lodge members killed him for breaking the blood oaths and that's why it went down like it did.

I was thinking of sending a PM to OptimusPrime there explaining I am for the most part LDS friendly and am just playing Backglass' advocate in the forum. I know mostly pretty good people that are LDS. I can't honestly say that for many other groups.

[Whiteberry]

I have read a great deal of these posts (most but not all) and the thing that impresses me the most is that people here are civil to each other. There are many different oppinions and, for the most part, people are considerate of others opinions and no one is trashing each other. Am I wrong? That is nice for a change.

[Gustaf Wasa]

I don't agree with them at all, but they believe in christ, and shouldn't anyone who believes in christ be a christian? technically?

I am not religious, but this is true: the definition of Christian is someone who believes in one god, and that Jesus died for our sins.

But you can be a Christian without believing that he was Yahweh the Hebrew mountain god (that is what the Yahweh story started out as, one tribal god among many in the area) in human form. The Arians, who competed with the Catholics until the Catholics were favored by a Roman emperor and persecuted them, did not believe that Jesus was God. In Arianism, Jesus is simply a prophet - a great prophet, the best of all, but not a god.

Would that Arianism had won out against Catholicism - it was much more sensible, less fanatic, and the religion would have been much calmer. The Visigoths were Arians for a long time, but didn't maintain that faith after sacking Rome and moving on to Gaul and Iberia. Too bad.


Those who talk about Bible-loyalty as the definition of being a Christian: are you aware that for centuries the Bible didn't even exist? By your definition the first Christians in those centuries were not Christians.

[rallison]

2dimes, as for why the masons didnt help, beats me If I see any i'll ask them. That would be interesting to hear their version of the events there, do you know what they say about it? I've never really heard anything, so i'm curious.

Most masons don't know what the lodge is doing outside thier own particular one, never mind history but I have never posed any questions regarding Joe to any I've spoke with, I might next time just for entertainment.

It's pretty cool that you know what I'm talking about without getting emotional about it.

To be honest I only know about the insident from reading it on a morman bashing site.

My personal theory is that lodge members killed him for breaking the blood oaths and that's why it went down like it did.

I was thinking of sending a PM to OptimusPrime there explaining I am for the most part LDS friendly and am just playing Backglass' advocate in the forum. I know mostly pretty good people that are LDS. I can't honestly say that for many other groups.

Yeah, when i was in mexico on my mission i ran into a surprising amount of masons. They all seemed like pretty good people, it got me interested in what they do. And my grandpa was a mason as well. They have lots of interesting stuff. I have heard a couple different versions from them, nothing real substantial though.

Whiteberry, glad to see that you've read the posts. We try to be nice

[2dimes]

Are you allowed to join a lodge rallison?

[Gustaf Wasa]

Addendum to my own post.

Not only did there exist xtians for centuries without the Bible, but also: Catholics believe in a whole lot of rituals that you don't find in the Bible, other than by a severe stretch of the imagination.

--Like the Communion; so Jesus had a meal, great. That means you have to eat oblates given to you by a priest every week?

--The confession booth: where does Jesus say you should sit in a booth and tell a priest all your secrets?

--The Pope: Jesus said "I'll build my church on you" to Peter, but how does that translate into the Catholic Church?

--Monks and nuns: yeah, enough said.

--The saints: why would saints somehow become mini gods that you should pray to? And why would their bones be sacred? Where does the Bible say that?

--Mary: why should you pray to her, when you have a god? What will she do for you that God won't do?

--Little interesting bits of magic that most people are not aware of: for example, there is a large door in the Vatican State that the Pope only opens every fifteen years or so. If you walk through it, you will be blessed and go to heaven!


The Catholic Church has invented a lot of stuff that is not in the Bible. Yet who would contend that Catholics are not Christians?

[2dimes]

Yet who would contend that Catholics are not Christians?

You could start a thread with a pole and find out. A few might wander in here to tell you but not as many.

[Gustaf Wasa]

A rhetorical question, 2dimes....

[2dimes]

Carry on then.

[rallison]

Are you allowed to join a lodge rallison?

Yeah we can. I gave some serious thought to it, and was about to, but then I started college and got super busy. I talked to a lot of other members who are also masons, and they say it pretty much depends on how you look at it. If you look at freemasonry as a replacement to the church, thats obviously not so cool. If you look at it as something good, like a yoga class for example, and realize that the church is still the church and it is more important, then it's fine to become a mason.

Gustaf Wasa-some very good points

[2dimes]

Interesting, any idea how long has it been since that has changed?

(probably 50 years ago and the stuff I read about it is painfully out of date)

[rallison]

Interesting, any idea how long has it been since that has changed?

(probably 50 years ago and the stuff I read about it is painfully out of date)

Since what has changed? I'm guessing you mean about the church's stance toward masonry? I could be wrong, i dont know a ton about it, but I think thats the way it's always been. I mean, Joseph was obviously a mason, as well as a ton of the beginning members of the church. The only time I think it has been a problem is when people spend all their time doing mason stuff, and neglect their church responsibilities, families, etc. again, i'm not 100% sure on that...

[2dimes]

Like I said where ever I read about it might be wayyyyy out dated. There was suposedly a restriction regarding membership in societies including the freemasons.

Made sense when I read it but it could have been flat out incorect also.

[Beastly]

What about baptism Beastly? Is it necessary? If it is, why? It's exactly the same thing you are saying about marriage. It is an ordinance, just like baptism.

I never have seen baptism as a ordinance? My brother joined a specific religious cult that claims those who are not Baptized go to hell. He calls himself a disciple of Christ.

I asked him to show me where in the bible it says you have to be baptized to be saved, and of course he got angry, because its not there.

Is it in the book of mormon that you have to be baptized to go to heaven?