Ron Paul '90s newsletters rant against blacks, gays

[Snorri1234]

OMFG!!! He actually suggested these people (explicitly reffered to as the rioters) commit criminal acts outside of the riots as well!! teh racizm!!!itz leik evriwer!!

No fuckface, he explicitely stated (not suggest) that ALL black criminals, not just the rioters, are criminals because they hate whites.

Seriously, stop inventing racists where there are none and find a real hobby. You're the kind of people who called McCain racist for calling NVA gooks.

Gooks?

Seriously, stop defending a guy who is considered racist by everyone including Ron Paul himself. You're the kind of guy who'd call KKK members "well, maybe a bit radical, but they do have a point".

[Napoleon Ier]

Tonkaed, much as I respect you and your arguments for opinions, I can't help but feel that commentary is unfair. You realise I wasn't really being serious at any point in that thread (the germany/France one)

I simply don't see how calling the LA rioters and all their criminal acts ethnically motivated is racist. It really is that simple. I'm getting angry at people who go out of their way to make unjustified and hurtful remarks about people. I have been called a bloated fascist capitalist by my very own teachers at a young age, and guess what? having everyone completely unjustifiably call you a Nazi ain't fun just because of some things you believe. And it's disgusting people like snorri and DM who think they're "cool" because they just follow whatever the system says t fit in who stop people freely having a diversity of opinion. Furthermore, ever since I gave Guissy my age, despite the fact it was obvious I was a school kid before that, you're right, eople somehow feel magically better "oh, it can't make any sense, he's just turned 15".

[got tonkaed]

i can understand the frusteration at people discrediting you for something as frequently irrelavant as age can be. I can also understand how you could be frusterated at people mocking you on grounds that arent reasonable and how that could drive you to resentment.

However, having read much of the thread i have to admit, i think your quite in the wrong. Now thats happened before, but what bothers me is that its becoming rather clear that for some reason its no longer about discussing the issue, but its about winning for some reason.

I would think that whatever you think people are bringing at you or whatever you feel about how people criticize, you have the choice to stoop to that or rise above it.

my criticism is in the hopes that you will stop choosing the former and start choosing the latter.

[Snorri1234]

I simply don't see how calling the LA rioters and all their criminal acts ethnically motivated is racist.

That isn't really racist.
However, calling every black criminal in society a racist, kinda is.

And it's disgusting people like snorri and DM who think they're "cool" because they just follow whatever the system says t fit in who stop people freely having a diversity of opinion.

I don't think I'm cool. I think I'm right.

I totally agree with free speech, and I'm actually one of the strongest defenders of it that I know. Neither DM nor I said that somehow the newsletter shouldn't have been published. We merely said that it was motherfucking racist.

Furthermore, ever since I gave Guissy my age, despite the fact it was obvious I was a school kid before that, you're right, eople somehow feel magically better "oh, it can't make any sense, he's just turned 15".

To be honest, I thought you didn't make any sense before I knew you were 15.

[Napoleon Ier]

OMFG!!! He actually suggested these people (explicitly reffered to as the rioters) commit criminal acts outside of the riots as well!! teh racizm!!!itz leik evriwer!!

No fuckface, he explicitely stated (not suggest) that ALL black criminals, not just the rioters, are criminals because they hate whites.

Seriously, stop inventing racists where there are none and find a real hobby. You're the kind of people who called McCain racist for calling NVA gooks.

Gooks?

Seriously, stop defending a guy who is considered racist by everyone including Ron Paul himself. You're the kind of guy who'd call KKK members "well, maybe a bit radical, but they do have a point".

John McCain racist now I've heard it all

[Napoleon Ier]

I simply don't see how calling the LA rioters and all their criminal acts ethnically motivated is racist.

That isn't really racist.
However, calling every black criminal in society a racist, kinda is.

Yet it only refers to "those who terrorize our cities" in an article dedicated to the LA riots and the problem of the 90s crime wave....so he's not calling every black criminal in society a racist, and he obviously acknowledges not all crimes are ethnically driven by mentioning that a large minority of crimes are commited by whites as well.

[Napoleon Ier]

i can understand the frusteration at people discrediting you for something as frequently irrelavant as age can be. I can also understand how you could be frusterated at people mocking you on grounds that arent reasonable and how that could drive you to resentment.

However, having read much of the thread i have to admit, i think your quite in the wrong. Now thats happened before, but what bothers me is that its becoming rather clear that for some reason its no longer about discussing the issue, but its about winning for some reason.

I would think that whatever you think people are bringing at you or whatever you feel about how people criticize, you have the choice to stoop to that or rise above it.

my criticism is in the hopes that you will stop choosing the former and start choosing the latter.

Tell me how you think I'm wrong, I respect you, you're one of the people who doesnt hate and insult me for the sake of it, I'll listen and debate in a civilized manner.

[got tonkaed]

ill pm you with some of my thoughts later.

[Napoleon Ier]

ill pm you with some of my thoughts later.

please do, i'd love to hear what you have to say.

[Snorri1234]

Yet it only refers to "those who terrorize our cities" in an article dedicated to the LA riots and the problem of the 90s crime wave...

I know that. BUT he also mentions the non-rioting part. And the multiple cities.

.so he's not calling every black criminal in society a racist, and he obviously acknowledges not all crimes are ethnically driven by mentioning that a large minority of crimes are commited by whites as well.

Yet he mentions our cities, which to anyone would imply not only LA, and non-riot criminals, which to anyone would imply that he's speaking about all criminals. It states that a large portion criminals are black, which really isn't a big deal as it's true. BUT then he follows up with that claiming those criminals hate whites.
It doesn't matter that he acknowledges that whites also commit crimes, as he isn't talking about them. He is talking about how black criminals in cities all over america, not only the rioting part, are brought up to hate white people.

[heavycola]

i can understand the frusteration at people discrediting you for something as frequently irrelavant as age can be. I can also understand how you could be frusterated at people mocking you on grounds that arent reasonable and how that could drive you to resentment.

However, having read much of the thread i have to admit, i think your quite in the wrong. Now thats happened before, but what bothers me is that its becoming rather clear that for some reason its no longer about discussing the issue, but its about winning for some reason.

I would think that whatever you think people are bringing at you or whatever you feel about how people criticize, you have the choice to stoop to that or rise above it.

my criticism is in the hopes that you will stop choosing the former and start choosing the latter.

Tell me how you think I'm wrong, I respect you, you're one of the people who doesnt hate and insult me for the sake of it, I'll listen and debate in a civilized manner.

Dude, I can't speak for anyone else really but I don't think hatred comes into it. This :makes expansive gesture with arm: is the internet, where just about everybody is an arsehole to some degree. Personally, I am arguing for the sake of it. Not hating and insulting. Well, insulting a bit.

[Napoleon Ier]

Even through that twisted interpretation, how is saying that a class has been indoctrinated to hate another racist?

I believe jihadists are indoctrinated from early age. Does that make me racist?

Furthermore, these criminals does not necessarily refer to all black criminals but to the rioters in LA and other cities.

[Snorri1234]

i can understand the frusteration at people discrediting you for something as frequently irrelavant as age can be. I can also understand how you could be frusterated at people mocking you on grounds that arent reasonable and how that could drive you to resentment.

However, having read much of the thread i have to admit, i think your quite in the wrong. Now thats happened before, but what bothers me is that its becoming rather clear that for some reason its no longer about discussing the issue, but its about winning for some reason.

I would think that whatever you think people are bringing at you or whatever you feel about how people criticize, you have the choice to stoop to that or rise above it.

my criticism is in the hopes that you will stop choosing the former and start choosing the latter.

Tell me how you think I'm wrong, I respect you, you're one of the people who doesnt hate and insult me for the sake of it, I'll listen and debate in a civilized manner.

Dude, I can't speak for anyone else really but I don't think hatred comes into it. This :makes expansive gesture with arm: is the internet, where just about everybody is an arsehole to some degree. Personally, I am arguing for the sake of it. Not hating and insulting. Well, insulting a bit.

Same here.

Nappy, I don't hate you. At least you try to debate and show your intelligence in some matters (and you're not stabbing my eyes out with bad grammar, which makes you 100x better than some people). You're way better than bradley and his sort, as you don't post mere meaningless rhetoric.
It's just that I frequently think you're wrong.

[Dancing Mustard]

Oh wow,
Still here trying to have the last word Nappy?

Seriously, Tonkaed is trying to help you out here... the fact is that the quote is racist. I appreciate you don't like being so, but defending it on (what have been repeatedly demonstrated as) spurious grounds, and trying to twist its original meaning to fit some more acceptable version is just a waste of your time. It's a double waste of time because your defences of it have all revolved around misrepresenting its subject and content, i.e. false semantics. Seriously, several people (me included) have pointed out quite clearly and quite calmly what it is about the passage that make it racist; why try to avoid what is so clearly true?

Also, might I add to GT's stament and inform you that hurling abuse when you realise that your ship is sinking only proves that you're out of serious answers, and that you realise people are getting the best of you.
Take this little gem for example:

it's disgusting people like snorri and DM who think they're "cool" because they just follow whatever the system says t fit in who stop people freely having a diversity of opinion.

The minute you realise your position has been demolished you start up with the chorus of "U R Evil Liberalz an U R hayting 3dom". It just does your attempts at argument a discredit and makes you look like a stroppy kid.
If you could logically rebut the points put to you then why would you feel the need to make (unsubstantiated and entirely false) abusive personal attacks? The answer; you wouldn't.

Think about it, you've been proved wrong at least ten times in this thread; like it or not, that's a fact. What you ought to have done (and what mature peopled do) is had the good grace to concede the point, or to simply stop replying and fighting a lost cause simply for the sake of fighting. Instead what you've done is just ground on and on with attempts to emptily twist other posters words, or to just be abusive to them.

Believe me when I say this, people aren't dismissing you because you're young; they're dismissing you because your points frequently don't make sense, are often just vapid semantics or empty jargon (which you seem curiously drawn to), and because you resort to playground insults the moment you start losing the point.

GT is right, sit out the next couple of plays and try to learn something from people who, plainly speaking, do this better than you do.

[Napoleon Ier]

i can understand the frusteration at people discrediting you for something as frequently irrelavant as age can be. I can also understand how you could be frusterated at people mocking you on grounds that arent reasonable and how that could drive you to resentment.

However, having read much of the thread i have to admit, i think your quite in the wrong. Now thats happened before, but what bothers me is that its becoming rather clear that for some reason its no longer about discussing the issue, but its about winning for some reason.

I would think that whatever you think people are bringing at you or whatever you feel about how people criticize, you have the choice to stoop to that or rise above it.

my criticism is in the hopes that you will stop choosing the former and start choosing the latter.

Tell me how you think I'm wrong, I respect you, you're one of the people who doesnt hate and insult me for the sake of it, I'll listen and debate in a civilized manner.

Dude, I can't speak for anyone else really but I don't think hatred comes into it. This :makes expansive gesture with arm: is the internet, where just about everybody is an arsehole to some degree. Personally, I am arguing for the sake of it. Not hating and insulting. Well, insulting a bit.

I suppose. But then when I insult back, a purely normal reaction, tonkaed scolds me....

[Napoleon Ier]

Right...now I am genuinely unconvinced that the quote is in any way racist. I just, don't understand what you're saying. Are you suggestng that saying a certain class of society are indoctrinated is racist?

I mean, Ok DM, enough. I was drawn into imitating your arrogant insulting tones out of simple desire to have a bit of jocular raillery. Fine, I'll stop, if you don't like it. However, I still would like you to bother to explain your point of view rather than pretending that you've already proved me wrong.

[Snorri1234]

Even through that twisted interpretation, how is saying that a class has been indoctrinated to hate another racist?

I believe jihadists are indoctrinated from early age. Does that make me racist?

It's racist because it's very generalizing. And also just plain wrong.

Furthermore, these criminals does not necessarily refer to all black criminals but to the rioters in LA and other cities.

Well, you could argue from that position. But the problem is that he is referring to a.) criminals who aren't rioting, with the non-rioting part and b.) cities who don't have riots with the comment about cities combined with the non-rioting part.

Your problem here is that you're trying to seperate the whole thing. The first sentence wasn't really that racist, but the ones after that proved that the author was racist. You gotta look at the whole thing here. You can't go point out that a certain sentence isn't racist and therefore the whole thing isn't racist. That's silliness.

[Napoleon Ier]

Generalizing does not make someone racist, unless they make a serious negative generalization about an entire racial group, and not criminal elements within it.

"Jihadists are indoctrinated from an early age". A statement I might well make on an average day. But, do I mean all? Well, no, there are plenty of exceptions I am certain, but the fact is I'm making an analytical observation about a certain psyche.
"Ethnic criminals who terrorize cities on riot or non riot days [note he does not say non-rioters, as you falsely accuse], are indoctrinated to hate whites" (to paraphrase, tell me ifyou have issues with this paraphrasing). This does not, to me sund racist. the generalization is wrong, but is nothing more than a pedantic point of detail.

[Dancing Mustard]

I mean, Ok DM, enough. I was drawn into imitating your arrogant insulting tones

Whoopsie, looks like you still can't get that nasty tendancy to randomly insult people whenever they out-argue you, out of your system...

I still would like you to bother to explain your point of view rather than pretending that you've already proved me wrong.

Have done, at quite some length... the problem is that each time I did so you just re-interpreted the quote to mean something completely bizarre; for example, by interpreting it as being a statement that crimes were generally 'racially motivated', instead of being a clear list of assertions about the way in which underprivileged black youths are raised.

I'm done here, this one is over for you, whether you choose to accept it or not.

[Napoleon Ier]

I mean, Ok DM, enough. I was drawn into imitating your arrogant insulting tones

Whoopsie, looks like you still can't get that nasty tendancy to randomly insult people whenever they out-argue you, out of your system...

Insult? Simple constate.

I still would like you to bother to explain your point of view rather than pretending that you've already proved me wrong.

Have done, at quite some length... the problem is that each time I did so you just re-interpreted the quote to mean something completely bizarre; for example, by interpreting it as being a statement that crimes were generally 'racially motivated', instead of being a clear list of assertions about the way in which underprivileged black youths are raised.

I'm done here, this one is over for you, whether you choose to accept it or not.

Just not good enough though, is it? You can't say it's all over then bugger off whilst ignoring my points.

How is making a comment, let us say, about criminal black youths way of being raised, any more racist than making an identical statement about the raising of Klansmen?

[Dancing Mustard]

You can't say it's all over then bugger off whilst ignoring my points.

I kind of can...

If you ever feel like re-reading the thread and actually countering my original arguments, instead of just sidetepping them, I'll come back and debate further.

But for now I'm too busy savouring my victory to continue slapping you down.

Good Day young padawan.

[Napoleon Ier]

You can't say it's all over then bugger off whilst ignoring my points.

I kind of can...

If you ever feel like re-reading the thread and actually countering my original arguments, instead of just sidetepping them, I'll come back and debate further.

But for now I'm too busy savouring my victory to continue slapping you down.

Good Day young padawan.

Ok, anyone else?

Is there is anyone else?

[Snorri1234]

Generalizing does not make someone racist, unless they make a serious negative generalization about an entire racial group, and not criminal elements within it.

The problem here is that the statement has to refer to all black people. Unless criminals are only raised by criminals, the statement has to be about all black families. It's not only saying that the criminals themselves are racist, but everyone around them too.

[Backglass]

It seems to me that some people believe the color of your skin predisposes you to being a criminal.

I find that both ignorant and sad.

[Napoleon Ier]

Generalizing does not make someone racist, unless they make a serious negative generalization about an entire racial group, and not criminal elements within it.

The problem here is that the statement has to refer to all black people. Unless criminals are only raised by criminals, the statement has to be about all black families. It's not only saying that the criminals themselves are racist, but everyone around them too.

This isn't true and you know it. This is just unfair to the writer : you have claimed that because it says the criminals are racist, it implies all their families are racist. That doesn't mean it is saying all blacks are racist, far less inferior to Whites in any way.

The statement far as I can see is saying that black criminals are often motivated by a feeling of oppressed injustice which they translate into latent aggressivity expressed during the riots or (on non-riot days) into criminal activity.

A man, Snorri, has a right to an opinion without thousands of folks on the internet 15 years later dissecting his words and scanning them for racism. I'm sure you can find latent racism in any comment ifyou look hard enough...