ITT: Morally justify why you eat factory farmed meat.

[Dualta]

I know tons of people who have chickens. None, including us, has ever debeaked them or put them in "tiny cages." Nor have I forced pigs into "dark, filthy sheds," or cut off tails and ears. Every animal we ever raised had it a far cry better than any animal in the wild. I grew up mucking stalls, how many wild animals get their den cleaned regularly, their injuries tended to, ailments medicated, etc? Your post is so far off base from what Player and I have been saying it's absurd.

Seriously, are you saying that simpy by owning a chicken and collecting and using the unfertilized eggs, one is guilty of such heinous cruelty? C'mon dude, separate fact from fiction here.

I didn't say that all of what I listed above happens on every single farm, but all of them are industry standard behaviours. That was the point I was making in response to Player's assertion that PETA and other animal welfare organisations only highlight the worst abuses, which is simply not true. I also don't buy into the argument that animals are treated better on farms and have better lives than animals in the wild. Open the gates and see which one the animals choose. Chickens, pigs and cows would all live in family groups in the wild roaming chosen habitats, eating natural foods and engaging freely in all sorts of natural behaviours. They wouldn't foul their own nests in the first place, and the many of the ailments farm animals suffer are more often the result or their being confined on farms. The same nonsense argument was used to justify slavery, i.e. that black people were better off on plantations where their masters could look after them.

I have no issue with people collecting wild eggs.

And you're commiting a logical fallacy of human exceptionalism by arguing that humans are removed from natural tendencies. The most evolutionarily successful organisms are those that utilize the widest range of resources. Dukasaur was correct in his quip about the lions.

-TG

No, I'm not because I didn't.

[PLAYER57832]

It has become popular to consider hunters villains in some groups, but the real truth is that it was hunters, not "tree hugging conservationists" who established the first wildlife refuges. That point is not coincidental.

Nonsense. It was hunters and corporate greed that caused the need for refuges. Which refuges are you referring to? Let's see some meat on the bones of this assertion.

which refuges? Try every one. Ducks unlimited was created specifically to preserve wetlands. Teddy Roosevelt famously was instrumental in the US national park system. Even John Muir caught and ate wild fish and game. There was an attempt to fund wildlife, particularly non-game species by selling things like conservation stamps. went nowhere. The nature conservancy has stepped forward to protect land, but this idea you have that hunters and farmers are the enemy of the environment is just very incorrect.

Did you happen to miss the point where I said I grew up on farms, have more than a few basic classes in agriculture? I also worked as a field biologist for several years. And, sorry, but a lot of what is put out by some groups like PETA, etc as "standard agriculture" are not at all standard, but cases of extreme abuse put out as if they were standard. I am not saying you are doing that. There IS room for debate here, but real debate does require honesty. Like I said, I will look at that video, maybe tomorrow, or when I have time.Regarding the documentary. If you had watched it, you'd remember.

For someone who grew up on a farm and worked as a field biologist for years, you show an extraordinary level of ignorance about what goes on on farms regarding the abuse of animals.[/quote] I see, so both Tailgunner and I are idiots. Let me ask you, how many farms have you actually visited for more than a few seconds? How much time have you spent in the wild, actually seeing what happens there?

[Dualta]

this idea you have that hunters and farmers are the enemy of the environment is just very incorrect.

I never said anything of the sort.

I see, so both Tailgunner and I are idiots. Let me ask you, how many farms have you actually visited for more than a few seconds? How much time have you spent in the wild, actually seeing what happens there?

Nor did I call you both idiots. That's two straw men you've constructed.

I spent a lot of time on farms as a boy and witnessed animals being treated very badly. I saw a young bull sandwiched between a gate and a wall and castrated. That was very hard to watch. I saw terrified sheep dipped and beaten, lambs removed from mothers with both calling out in anguish, goats shot in the head with a shotgun for being considered vermin. There is no respect for animal life or welfare on farms beyond what is necessary for turning a profit. I'll say it again, the only way to treat animals morally is to leave them alone or help them when they're in need.

[Bernie Sanders]

this idea you have that hunters and farmers are the enemy of the environment is just very incorrect.

I never said anything of the sort.

I see, so both Tailgunner and I are idiots. Let me ask you, how many farms have you actually visited for more than a few seconds? How much time have you spent in the wild, actually seeing what happens there?

Nor did I call you both idiots. That's two straw men you've constructed.

I spent a lot of time on farms as a boy and witnessed animals being treated very badly. I saw a young bull sandwiched between a gate and a wall and castrated. That was very hard to watch. I saw terrified sheep dipped and beaten, lambs removed from mothers with both calling out in anguish, goats shot in the head with a shotgun for being considered vermin. There is no respect for animal life or welfare on farms beyond what is necessary for turning a profit. I'll say it again, the only way to treat animals morally is to leave them alone or help them when they're in need.

We can treat our four legged and feathered food parcels more humanely, but they would not exist if it was not for farmers. I love meat and if it was banned, I would be a criminal.

[Dualta]

more humanely

Here we go again.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

I know tons of people who have chickens. None, including us, has ever debeaked them or put them in "tiny cages." Nor have I forced pigs into "dark, filthy sheds," or cut off tails and ears. Every animal we ever raised had it a far cry better than any animal in the wild. I grew up mucking stalls, how many wild animals get their den cleaned regularly, their injuries tended to, ailments medicated, etc? Your post is so far off base from what Player and I have been saying it's absurd.

Seriously, are you saying that simpy by owning a chicken and collecting and using the unfertilized eggs, one is guilty of such heinous cruelty? C'mon dude, separate fact from fiction here.

I didn't say that all of what I listed above happens on every single farm, but all of them are industry standard behaviours. That was the point I was making in response to Player's assertion that PETA and other animal welfare organisations only highlight the worst abuses, which is simply not true. I also don't buy into the argument that animals are treated better on farms and have better lives than animals in the wild. Open the gates and see which one the animals choose. Chickens, pigs and cows would all live in family groups in the wild roaming chosen habitats, eating natural foods and engaging freely in all sorts of natural behaviours. They wouldn't foul their own nests in the first place, and the many of the ailments farm animals suffer are more often the result or their being confined on farms. The same nonsense argument was used to justify slavery, i.e. that black people were better off on plantations where their masters could look after them.

I have no issue with people collecting wild eggs.

And you're commiting a logical fallacy of human exceptionalism by arguing that humans are removed from natural tendencies. The most evolutionarily successful organisms are those that utilize the widest range of resources. Dukasaur was correct in his quip about the lions.

-TG

No, I'm not because I didn't.

You don't believe domesticated animals have it better than wild animals? I don't know what to tell you there. It's no contest. Like I said, we've always cared for our animals, livestock or pets, and such animal agriculture is a mutually beneficial relationship. Nature is brutal, and life out there for animals is short. You are absolutely in lala-land if you've got some idealstic notion that animals live happily and healthy (or cleanly!) out there. It's akin to the "noble savage" theory. Also, nice false equivalence with the slave argument.

There are droves of animals, undomesticated, that come down with diseases and die off, or don't and just continue on suffering from disease. There are animals that are mauled by predators. Some escape with injuries that kill them over weeks. I saw a program once where a lionness had gotten to smart with either a croc or a hippo, and had her lower jaw almost completely removed. She suffered for weeks, couldn't eat because she had a dangling jaw, and starved to death. Nature's pretty swell, ain't it?

It's also incorrect to argue that the animals are simply frothing at the mouth to escape their containment. Before we built a fence around the entire property, we always let out the goats and sheep to graze in the morning and brought 'em back in before dark. Every time they follow of their own accord, because what beats a regular meal with a warm place to sleep? Escaped pigs usually just root around in the creek for a while and then return when they feel like it.

By any reasonable metric, domesticated animals are more successful and healthy than their wild kin. One could argue that genetic diversity is lessened, and I would agree with such a sentiment.

more humanely

Here we go again.

There's a reason the root of that word in "human." Out in the wild, there is little empathy or compassionate treatment. We eat them, but feed and house them, which isn't something they'd receive from any other predator.

-TG

[TA1LGUNN3R]

this idea you have that hunters and farmers are the enemy of the environment is just very incorrect.

I never said anything of the sort.

I see, so both Tailgunner and I are idiots. Let me ask you, how many farms have you actually visited for more than a few seconds? How much time have you spent in the wild, actually seeing what happens there?

Nor did I call you both idiots. That's two straw men you've constructed.

I spent a lot of time on farms as a boy and witnessed animals being treated very badly. I saw a young bull sandwiched between a gate and a wall and castrated. That was very hard to watch. I saw terrified sheep dipped and beaten, lambs removed from mothers with both calling out in anguish, goats shot in the head with a shotgun for being considered vermin. There is no respect for animal life or welfare on farms beyond what is necessary for turning a profit. I'll say it again, the only way to treat animals morally is to leave them alone or help them when they're in need.

Right, so this is indicative of all farming practices? Lol. Generalize much?

Generally bulls are banded for steering, btw. Goats and sheep, too.

-TG

[Dualta]

this idea you have that hunters and farmers are the enemy of the environment is just very incorrect.

I never said anything of the sort.

I see, so both Tailgunner and I are idiots. Let me ask you, how many farms have you actually visited for more than a few seconds? How much time have you spent in the wild, actually seeing what happens there?

Nor did I call you both idiots. That's two straw men you've constructed.

I spent a lot of time on farms as a boy and witnessed animals being treated very badly. I saw a young bull sandwiched between a gate and a wall and castrated. That was very hard to watch. I saw terrified sheep dipped and beaten, lambs removed from mothers with both calling out in anguish, goats shot in the head with a shotgun for being considered vermin. There is no respect for animal life or welfare on farms beyond what is necessary for turning a profit. I'll say it again, the only way to treat animals morally is to leave them alone or help them when they're in need.

Right, so this is indicative of all farming practices? Lol. Generalize much?

Generally bulls are banded for steering, btw. Goats and sheep, too.

-TG

Where did I say it was indicative of all farm practices? I simply didn't. It seems that you folks are spending more time constructing straw men to beat, rather than dealing with the basic allegations being waged against animal agriculture and its abuse of animals.

My experience of farming is limited, but not as much as you thought, yet I am still able to learn enough through various media about standard practices across the farming industry, from small, family holdings to major CAFOs. My main point remains the same and has yet to be addressed by either of you. We do not need to do these things to animals to be healthy or happy, so where is its justification?

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Where did I say it was indicative of all farm practices? I simply didn't. It seems that you folks are spending more time constructing straw men to beat, rather than dealing with the basic allegations being waged against animal agriculture and its abuse of animals.

There is no respect for animal life or welfare on farms beyond what is necessary for turning a profit. I'll say it again, the only way to treat animals morally is to leave them alone or help them when they're in need.

Choose one. You're saying two different things that contradict each other. There is no strawman because you have issued a statement, multiple times, that there is no possible compassion in farming.

My main point remains the same and has yet to be addressed by either of you. We do not need to do these things to animals to be healthy or happy, so where is its justification?

Player and I have both stated that meat is not necessary for survival in the first world, and have condemned practices of large scale farming. As for justification? We are animals, many animals eat others. It is in our nature. That is all the justification needed. As well demand justification for fucking or laughing.

-TG

[Dualta]

Where did I say it was indicative of all farm practices? I simply didn't. It seems that you folks are spending more time constructing straw men to beat, rather than dealing with the basic allegations being waged against animal agriculture and its abuse of animals.

There is no respect for animal life or welfare on farms beyond what is necessary for turning a profit. I'll say it again, the only way to treat animals morally is to leave them alone or help them when they're in need.

Choose one. You're saying two different things that contradict each other. There is no strawman because you have issued a statement, multiple times, that there is no possible compassion in farming.

No, I'm not. Not even a nice try.

My main point remains the same and has yet to be addressed by either of you. We do not need to do these things to animals to be healthy or happy, so where is its justification?

Player and I have both stated that meat is not necessary for survival in the first world, and have condemned practices of large scale farming. As for justification? We are animals, many animals eat others. It is in our nature. That is all the justification needed. As well demand justification for fucking or laughing.

-TG

Rape, murder and genocide are also in our nature, but you'll hardly justify those, eh? And fucking and laughing are fine, as long as there are no victims involved.

[Army of GOD]

wait, so is dualta arguing against the morality of eating meat in general?

[PLAYER57832]

this idea you have that hunters and farmers are the enemy of the environment is just very incorrect.

I never said anything of the sort.

That is the very impact of your words, whether you wish to own that idea or not.

You asked why I say your ideas remove us from the world around? Your words describe exactly to what I am referring. In the "bad old days", folks tended to classify animals as "good" or "bad". The good animals were those we eat, the bad ones those that attacked us or the things we eat. Very few were "neutral", they would be things like canaries that gave pleasure, but did not provide food.

You commit an equal error whether you acknowledge it or not. When you remove yourself from the need to deal with animals, it becomes easier and easier to decide that this animal or that animal is superfluous, unneeded... and the decisions made by even so-called prominent environmentalists show this. You can be vegetarian all you want, but to truly protect and preserve, you need to go way out of your way to buy things that support local, sustainable agriculture. Simply saying "its from plants, so its OK", is just plain wrong.

You may feel there is less harm in eradicating a species to make room for swaths of unsustainable cropland than in caging an animal and caring for them, slaughtering some. I definitely don't. I don't because the evidence is quite clear that society is being directly harmed, not by the slaughter of a few animals (and yes, I acknowledge that there are some idiots in the industry that need correction), but by the mass reliance on the corporate structure. You started out this post with that assertion, to which I agreed (albeit I did play "devil's advocate" ). However, as soon as I pointed out that the corporate harm extended to crops, you moved to attacking all raising of animals as if factory farming equaled animal abuse and nothing else.

I see, so both Tailgunner and I are idiots. Let me ask you, how many farms have you actually visited for more than a few seconds? How much time have you spent in the wild, actually seeing what happens there?

Nor did I call you both idiots. That's two straw men you've constructed.

I spent a lot of time on farms as a boy and witnessed animals being treated very badly. I saw a young bull sandwiched between a gate and a wall and castrated. That was very hard to watch. I saw terrified sheep dipped and beaten, lambs removed from mothers with both calling out in anguish, goats shot in the head with a shotgun for being considered vermin. There is no respect for animal life or welfare on farms beyond what is necessary for turning a profit. I'll say it again, the only way to treat animals morally is to leave them alone or help them when they're in need.

I would disagree strongly with your description, even to say that what you have described is not the terror you wish to claim.

BUT, and this is important, my basic point is that if you are going to declaim eating of meat, due to harm it causes, then you need to also look at the harm that comes from crops. You keep sidestepping that point, ignoring it.

Also, let me ask you something. You say you spent a lot of time on a farm, fine. But how much, in recent years, have you read things that really and truly oppose your views, with evidence and scholarship, rather than just hot-headed opinion? You dismiss my and tailgunner's claims both, and claim your evidence is independent, but a little research shows it actually is not as independent as you claim. Also, while both t and I have shown that we are quite familiar with most (not all, perhaps) of your arguments, you dismiss what we are saying without even a consideration.



PS -- I mentioned talks with the late Bill Devall earlier, ... why don't you google him and then tell me if I am so utterly ignorant of "your" issues?

[PLAYER57832]

OK, finally got the time to see the video.


This link here expresses a lot of my opinion:
https://hojunester.wordpress.com/2012/1 ... arthlings/

Interestingly, I found very little honest criticism. For something produced in 2005, that is more than a little suspicious. Basically, about the only way that would happen is if either no body, literally nobody saw it or if all criticism was being actively removed. Now, why would any honest organization run so swiftly from any and all criticism?

To the above, added with your comments, isn't it interesting that one of the primary solutions was CASTRATION/fixing of people's pets to reduce the population (something with which I firmly agree), yet here you are claiming that castration in farming is somehow abuse. To put an emphasis on this, let me say that one of the greatest biological threats we face here in the US right now, its so-called wild hogs. They are not truly wild (indigenous), but rather are escaped farm animals.


Per the specifics -- the claim that its "common" for animals to still be alive after being hit with the bullet-bolt is plain ridiculous. Similarly, this person shows a hallal butchery where basically every rule put forward for Kosher/Hallal butchering is violated. AND... seriously tries to claim that this is typical.


Here is the REAL problem. The REAL problem is twofold.
A. folks like you are now so removed, so ignorant of animal behavior, true welfare that you can look at what are actually GOOD practices and claim them as "abuse" -- not because they truly are abuse, but because you anthropomorphize in the extreme. BUT.. let me clarify something. I have been to slaughterhouses, worked on farms most of my life. I have ALSO worked in hospitals. And.. the real truth is that a lot of people would far prefer the death the animals experience to their own experiences!

B. Too many, like the producer of this film, pretend that only the worst practices, often truly abusive situations are "normal". In this film, they meld the two -- legitimate, honest practices, with abuse in such a way that only someone who is actually involved in the industry would recognize the distinctions.

So, let me clarify -- slitting throats, a bullet in the brain, electroshock are all used because when properly applied, they are essentially painfree. These are, I will add, the same methods used for human executions. (throat cutting is not used in the west any longer, but once was). Medication, a more common method of human execution, is not used because we don't want lethal drugs in things we eat. Chickens get their head cut off. A chicken will run around afterward, because their nerve system is so undeveloped that it still functions after. If you call that alive... well, I don't.

Overcrowding -- this is probably the closest to an accurate criticism. It is also being changed, AND is one of the biggest differences between a factory farm and a smaller, holistic farm.

Things like cutting off chicken's feet while they live, prodding animals with electric shock for what seem to be pure random cruelty, etc, etc, these are not at all normal practices. Nor is using animals for target practice, hitting them and laughing about it, etc, etc.

As for what they say about seafood.... again, they take some legitimate criticism i.e. contamination, but then blow it up into something unreasonable. Factory trawls, overfishing -- these are real issues.

And, finally, here is the irony. The primary result of all this pressure to change conditions is to make farming more difficult in Europe, the US and Canada. But, then what? Then more and more farming is done in Mexico, other places where regulations are less. Further, in many cases these operations don't arise from regular farmers pressured to produce more, but still with the fundamental understanding/base of farming. These operations are created as nothing more than living machinery operations, with workers and animals alike treated as commodities. THAT is where you get the worst of abuses.

In other words, all this pressure you and yours are putting on "the industry" is actually making it worse, not better. To create positive change you cannot just attack, you have to actually support good, legitimately sustainable operations. AND, that includes crop production, not just animals!