Happy 4th of July.

[luns101]

No country is a utopia. I'm wondering who told her that. Did your mother decide to stay here in the US or return to Belgium?

She's still here but she talks about moving.

The fact is that America is described as a country where one can become whoever they want, when that is not true at all. Who told her that is anybody's guess.

Fair enough. I wish her the best in whatever she decides to do.

[luns101]

Come on, use that god-given forebrain...

I'm not asking you to predict, in-depth, exactly what political ramifications a civilian massacre will have, all I am asking you is will you still be proud to be an American citizen if this happened?

Will you still be 'patriotic'?

Nope, won't get into hypotheticals with you.

The nearest thing that I can think of that is based in reality is our treatment of native American Indians. I can't personally erase the cruelty of that era, but I do think that our country must at least live up to the treaties that we've signed with the various Indian Nations. I voted against Governor Arnold's plan to try and siphon $$ away from Indian casinos a few years back in order to try and deal with California's deficit. I thought that was a cheap political trick by the Governator.

Despite that period in our country's history, I am still proud to be an American. Yes.

[dustn64]

I don't want to turn this religious, but everyone I see that is patriotic also believes in god. I just thought I would throw this in.

[luns101]

Neutrino,

I re-read some of my posts and I have to hold myself accountable. It probably wasn't the best way to put forth my arguments when I said the following:

I'm hardly able to type after hearing your ridiculous statement of proof!

Marx got screwed, he should have had you as his compadre, not Engels.

My apologies. Sometimes I go a little overboard and don't want to make this personal. Hopefully, you'll consider my points.

[Gold Knight]

I don't want to turn this religious, but everyone I see that is patriotic also believes in god. I just thought I would throw this in.

Are you trying to say that atheists dont have the ability to be patriotic? Or that you don't see atheists being patriotic? Either way, you dont have to be jumping up and down, running down the street with an American falg to be patriotic. All you need to be patriotic is a sense of pride in yourself and your country. Rev Jesse Jackson believes in God, and he is against near everything America does.

[dustn64]

I don't want to turn this religious, but everyone I see that is patriotic also believes in god. I just thought I would throw this in.

Are you trying to say that atheists dont have the ability to be patriotic? Or that you don't see atheists being patriotic? Either way, you dont have to be jumping up and down, running down the street with an American falg to be patriotic. All you need to be patriotic is a sense of pride in yourself and your country. Rev Jesse Jackson believes in God, and he is against near everything America does.

No, Im not saying atheists aren't patriotic. I'm just saying that I normaly see church functions that set up major pro-america functions (at least where I live). And the people that hate what america does are normaly pro-abortion and are for gay marriage.

[Skittles!]

I think I'm going to vomit.

[magneticgoop]

really we just live in a great country. i go to ensenada mexico all the time. i am on a first name basis with people who leave for work before dawn, hike down a large, steep hill walk another 5 miles and work in the fields until it is dark for less than $5 a week. trash is under every footstep you step. mange is on every stray dog that roam the streets. their houses are made of plywood and only the size of my bedroom. you can count all the paved streets in the city on one hand. cockroaches are as common ants. when you get back to the states you really appreciate all that you have: toilets, electricity, beds, more than 1 set of clothes, luxury and everything that we take for granted. really it's good to live in the first world

[luns101]

Since 2003, the US has sent approximately $157 (now that's a lot of money!)

Obvious typo...should have inserted million in there.

[Skittles!]

really we just live in a great country. i go to ensenada mexico all the time. i am on a first name basis with people who leave for work before dawn, hike down a large, steep hill walk another 5 miles and work in the fields until it is dark for less than $5 a week. trash is under every footstep you step. mange is on every stray dog that roam the streets. their houses are made of plywood and only the size of my bedroom. you can count all the paved streets in the city on one hand. cockroaches are as common ants. when you get back to the states you really appreciate all that you have: toilets, electricity, beds, more than 1 set of clothes, luxury and everything that we take for granted. really it's good to live in the first world

You do know America isn't the only country to have flushing toilets, electricity (Which third-world countries also have), beds, sets of clothes?

[Neutrino]

really we just live in a great country. i go to ensenada mexico all the time. i am on a first name basis with people who leave for work before dawn, hike down a large, steep hill walk another 5 miles and work in the fields until it is dark for less than $5 a week. trash is under every footstep you step. mange is on every stray dog that roam the streets. their houses are made of plywood and only the size of my bedroom. you can count all the paved streets in the city on one hand. cockroaches are as common ants. when you get back to the states you really appreciate all that you have: toilets, electricity, beds, more than 1 set of clothes, luxury and everything that we take for granted. really it's good to live in the first world

You do know America isn't the only country to have flushing toilets, electricity (Which third-world countries also have), beds, sets of clothes?

What? When did this happen? I gotta get me some 'o this e-lec-tri-c-tee. I'll stick one of my slaves on a Kangaroo and send 'im into town to get me some immediatly.

[Jenos Ridan]

I don't want to turn this religious, but everyone I see that is patriotic also believes in god. I just thought I would throw this in.

Are you trying to say that atheists dont have the ability to be patriotic? Or that you don't see atheists being patriotic? Either way, you dont have to be jumping up and down, running down the street with an American falg to be patriotic. All you need to be patriotic is a sense of pride in yourself and your country. Rev Jesse Jackson believes in God, and he is against near everything America does.

No, Im not saying atheists aren't patriotic. I'm just saying that I normaly see church functions that set up major pro-america functions (at least where I live). And the people that hate what america does are normaly pro-abortion and are for gay marriage.

Funny, Portugal is supposedly 90% atheist and I don't see them being un-patriotic in the 'Football' games.

[Neutrino]

The verdict was just recently put out. Give it some time and you may see his license revoked. These things take time. Are we to expect an "instant" verdict according to popular will? No, we must have a system where everyone is heard out (even ridiculous people) and the facts are weighed. Time lets people take a deep breath and make reasonable decisions. I doubt that girl will get any $$ out of the suit, but the teacher will be reprimanded in some fashion. You're taking two extreme cases and making a judgment about our legal system based on them.

I don't consider those two cases too extreme. They seem to be pretty good examples of what happens in the American legal system
Doctors and teachers are running scared because of lawers (all students have to get permission slips to even see M rated movies, because the teachers are afraid of being sued for showing them.

Well, I don't think that you can make arguments against the US healthcare system based on your country's. I am sorry to hear about your experience with a broken arm, and I hope that you have healed...seriously.

Well, to the best of my knowledge they are quite similar, so I think any example that has to do with one is applicable to the other.

Any my experience with my broken arm was actually quite a good one. Because it was a private hospital, it had Pay-tv; something very important to a 12 year old

Because your points coincide mostly with what liberal politicians here espouse. I hear the talking points but I rarely see facts posted - just rhetoric and hypotheticals. I think others here have been the one to "polarize" this subject as all I said was I'm happy to be living in what I consider to be the greatest country on earth. It doesn't mean I think Americans are better than others.

Hey, I would like to say that for someone who is criticizing rhetoric you sure did use a lot of it in your response to my arguments

Anyway; why do you consider the US to be the greatest? What particular quality puts it apart from all the other developed nations of the world?

Once again filled with hypotheticals...not reality. You also claimed his dictatorial powers were "proof" of this. Proof is based in reality, not a hypothetical.

How much more proof do you want? Your liberties are slowly being stripped away and government surveilence is on the rise. I think that counts as enough evidence to make a pretty broad prediction like mine.

Of course I can't show you where you said it because you never said it...and guess what?...I never claimed that you said it so stop shifting the discussion. I refuted your insinuation that the United States manipulates 3rd world countries for the purpose of putting them into debt and hoarding tons of $$ so nobody else in the world can have it. We help the 3rd world in many areas because (1) it is morally good to do so, and (2) it makes good business sense to help developing countries prosper.

It may have come out that way, but I wasn't implying anything about the USA or it's plans for developing countries.
What I was aiming for was simply to show how flawed and easily abused Capitalism is.

To show you and others that may read this thread that space exploration was not simply for the purpose of showing up the Russians as a "political gesture" as you put it. It has aided mankind in a variety of ways here on earth and will continue to do so.

But the Apollo landings were done purely to show the Russians up. There were several proposals on the table at the same time, but Kennedy decided that landing on the Moon would give the biggest bang for the smallest cost.
Those other technologies might have been developed because of the Moon landings, but they were never it's original purpose.

No, not in those exact words, but you did criticize the USA's space program when you said:

Your Space Program is also a joke and your only means of delivering significant masses into orbit (the Space Shuttle) is the result of a bad compromise; it neither fufills it's role as a cheap, re-usable transport, or as a War Plane. While the Moon landings did provide a boost too several industries, they were ultimatly a political gesture and nothing more. As soon as it was discovered that there was nothing immediatly useful on the Moon, the entire thing was abandoned.

I was simply criticizing the current Space Program, which you seemed desperate to defend. It is a bugely expensive, hugely inefficient cash-cow. It's only method of moving masses into orbit is ageing and needs to be extensively repaired after each flight (it would actually be cheaper to build a whole new Shuttle after every flight)

How do you know this? How "easy" is it land a manned spacecraft on another planet? I'm not an expert and I'm assuming you aren't either. I would guess it's actually quite difficult and takes a lot of planning.

Not that hard; I mean we went to the Moon 40 years ago. We should easily be capable of going to Mars now. Even von Braun was planning ways to go to Mars 40 years ago.
And most of the planning is already done. NASA employs hundreds if not thousands of scientists and there is often not enough work for them all to do. So the ones who have lots of spare time plot imaginery missions.

Hell, Newtonian physics isn't very hard; it's extremly predictable. Give me a couple of hours and some technical details and I could probably plot you a mission to Mars.

Yes, but Bruce Willis and Ben Affleck need those in order to save the world from future asteroids hurling towards earth (my poor attempt at humor ) We do have plans to return to the moon and study it in depth. Repairing and maintaining the ISS is part of our long-term plan. We do plan to go to Mars. We're not doing these things to thumb our nose at the rest of the world. You can read about it for yourself here:

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/explo ... index.html

The problem with going to the Moon is that there is effectivley nothing there (unless you want fuel for fusion engines, really high quality glass or lots of sunlight.)
Other than that, what is the Moon useful for? Nothing. (Oh, maybe Aluminium - Oxygen engines, but you can get better than that down here on earth)
The ISS is also a waste of time; way to big and way to expensive.

If you wan't to do something useful in space, go mine some NEA's. That'll achieve something.

[Minister Masket]

luns i,m with you America is the best place in the world. if anyone can name a better all around country i'm packing my bags and moving tomorrow. no token well luxemberg has a better health care system, i mean better all around. we arent perfect but were the best of the bunch

I have already named a better country: Switzerland.
Your tickets are waiting at the airport.

[b.k. barunt]

I don't want to turn this religious, but everyone I see that is patriotic also believes in god. I just thought I would throw this in.

Good point dustn. I was raised by devout Christian parents, who believe in God & country, so when i went off to war in 68, and saw the reality of what this country has become, it also made me reject Christianity. It is flag waving hypocrites like luns who drag Christianity, and what it really stands for into the shitpile. The basis for America and everything it stands for is the U.S. Constitution. This has been repeatedly raped by people like Bush, so tell me luns, what is there left to be proud of? A true patriot would fight to restore the constitution - not cheer for those who rape it.

[magneticgoop]

really we just live in a great country. i go to ensenada mexico all the time. i am on a first name basis with people who leave for work before dawn, hike down a large, steep hill walk another 5 miles and work in the fields until it is dark for less than $5 a week. trash is under every footstep you step. mange is on every stray dog that roam the streets. their houses are made of plywood and only the size of my bedroom. you can count all the paved streets in the city on one hand. cockroaches are as common ants. when you get back to the states you really appreciate all that you have: toilets, electricity, beds, more than 1 set of clothes, luxury and everything that we take for granted. really it's good to live in the first world

You do know America isn't the only country to have flushing toilets, electricity (Which third-world countries also have), beds, sets of clothes?

i know, people have this stuff just the majority don't. i am just saying this is a great place to live in comparison to most of the rest of the world

[magneticgoop]

btw for you brits $5 is enough to buy you a meal at mcdonalds

[Anarkistsdream]

btw for you brits $5 is enough to buy you a meal at mcdonalds

Little bro, I remember when they came OUT with combo meals... And it was much less than $5...

That price isn't a GOOD thing.

[luns101]

Neutrino,

I've laid out specific points and quoted sources for why I believe you're wrong about your assessment of America. Our legal system is fine, despite the extreme cases your referencing. Our emergency rooms, although not perfect, are fine. I even quoted you specific statistics. I gave you good information about our space program and how it helps. There are future missions planned. We did not just land on the moon to show up the Soviets, although that played a part. You've been given specific instances of how the US helps other countries with humanitarian aid.

All these things add up to show that what you're being told is either false, or you're choosing to go along with the wave of anti-US rhetoric. You haven't provided me (or others) with specific proof, but rather accusations. They have been refuted. If you want to continue to believe that America is like that I can't stop you, but it flies in the face of reality.

When I said that I am happy to be living in the greatest country on the earth...I am not saying that I believe myself and my countrymen to be superior people. I think you know this to be true as it's the 3rd time I've stated it. I love this country and all the opportunities it provides me. I'm not going to back down from my original statement. The only advice I can give to you is to be open-minded enough to do some research on your own. We are not the cesspool of hedonism that is usually portrayed outside of this country.

[wicked]

btw for you brits $5 is enough to buy you a meal at mcdonalds

Little bro, I remember when they came OUT with combo meals... And it was much less than $5...

That price isn't a GOOD thing.

Do you remember "keep the hot side hot and the cold side cold"?

[luns101]

Do you remember "keep the hot side hot and the cold side cold"?

I think that was the McDLT

[wicked]

haha I never ate one, but I remember the commercials. I think there even a little ditty that went along with it.

[luns101]

haha I never ate one, but I remember the commercials. I think there even a little ditty that went along with it.

Yeah, and Jason Alexander (best known for his role as George Costanza) was one of the people on the commercial before he made it big...haha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTSdUOC8Kac

Enjoy!

[wicked]

hahaha can't say I remember that particular commercial, just the "keep the hot hot, keep the cool cool"... then again I was pretty young!!

[AllOutOfDollars]

Luns, I've been following your responses on this thread. How DARE you insult our collective intelligence by quoting facts! Can't you see? Our emotions and personal insights dictate reality. And yet, you incessantly use logic and facts to support your position. As a matter of fact, I'd bet if I said that the sun does NOT rise each morning, you'd find some sort of proof the sun DOES rise each morning. There's no point in debating people like you.


There's only 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count, and those who can't.