THE FAITH OF OUR FATHERS

[Guiscard]

It's not spending that dictates whether you are conservative or liberal, it's what your stance is on issues like abortion, or gay marriage, or legalizing pot, or if we are justified in going to war (conservatives generally oppose these).

Spending is a fairly big indicator, unriggable. The 'big' issues you mention define conservativism specifically in the USA. Elsewhere they aren't anything like the polemic definitive issues they are for you. Over here spending/taxation is a major factor, the other being government interference in your everyday life. On a very general scale, Conservatives advocate lower taxes, less government spending and less interference whereas Liberals advocate higher taxation used to fund government interference for the good of society. The issues you mention are fluid whereas the values I'm talking about are fairly rigid.

Yeah, but we're talking about conservativism in the USA. You don't get to use your own terms if nobody agrees with them in your country. If you say someone is a conservatist in the USA, you mean anything ranging from the people who believe the whole nation should be christian to the people who generally say the government should be smaller.
Jay cannot say anything about Bush not being a conservatist, because the term is so loose you can fit so many people in it.

TT

I know all that. I was responding to a post saying that conservatism was not to do with spending. (Also, its conservative and conservatism not conservatist and conservativism)

[Snorri1234]

I think this is Jay's view of the Liberal mind:

[heavycola]

Actually....initially I was against the war. Then Bush propaganda got me on board with him.

And now Ron Paul propoganda has got you on board with him. What makes you think that in a year or two someone else with different propaganda isn't going to come along and convince you differently?

You seem very easily swayed, Jay...

Hardly. I didn't think it was right to invade Iraq. Then after the constant "Saddam will give WMD's to terrorists to bring to the US and use here" I said, "well that's no good", and hopped on board the "Invade Iraq bus". Ron Paul saying that it was AGAINST the Constitution made me re-think my stance.

Yes, because inflexible, unthinking adherence to ancient documents is ALWAYS a good thing. Stick with what you know.

[beezer]

This is actually quite interesting to watch. Jay, it seems that you are making the transition from a conservative to a libertarian. I don't know how you're going to justify that with your Christian faith as far as social issues go but it will be interesting to witness.

[CoffeeCream]

This is actually quite interesting to watch. Jay, it seems that you are making the transition from a conservative to a libertarian. I don't know how you're going to justify that with your Christian faith as far as social issues go but it will be interesting to witness.

But aren't Christians themselves divided over social issues? I saw one group of Christians on TV saying "deport the illegals". Later, I saw one illegal immigrant being housed by a Catholic priest. She was later apprehended and deported anyway. It seems that both groups tried to use Christian beliefs to argue against each other.

[got tonkaed]

This is actually quite interesting to watch. Jay, it seems that you are making the transition from a conservative to a libertarian. I don't know how you're going to justify that with your Christian faith as far as social issues go but it will be interesting to witness.

But aren't Christians themselves divided over social issues? I saw one group of Christians on TV saying "deport the illegals". Later, I saw one illegal immigrant being housed by a Catholic priest. She was later apprehended and deported anyway. It seems that both groups tried to use Christian beliefs to argue against each other.

they are, but in the case of jay, you could argue that the shift from political parties could have others who share similar beliefs, such as beezer, to question how he can reconcile his particular beliefs with his political philosophy. Its certainly true not all christians think others follow the correct branch of political thought.

[beezer]

they are, but in the case of jay, you could argue that the shift from political parties could have others who share similar beliefs, such as beezer, to question how he can reconcile his particular beliefs with his political philosophy. Its certainly true not all christians think others follow the correct branch of political thought.

Yeah, I guess I should clarify that. You don't have to subscribe to a certain political party to be a Christian. There is no "correct" political party to belong to. Many evenagelicals such as myself (and I thought Jay was as well) are going to disagree with Ron Paul's stance on social issues. I'm wondering how Jay will reconcile scripture with that.

But please don't misunderstand that I'm saying Jay doesn't have the right to change his mind. Your political ideology on earth won't mean a hill of beans when compared to eternity. We all do the best we can to figure out political solutions to countries' problems while we're down here on earth.

[jay_a2j]

This is actually quite interesting to watch. Jay, it seems that you are making the transition from a conservative to a libertarian. I don't know how you're going to justify that with your Christian faith as far as social issues go but it will be interesting to witness.

Kinda confused here. The core of my conservative stances are unchanged. I think illegals should be deported, they are here illegally. I am against welfare for the lazy. (Kinda makes Gods punishment of Cain irrelevant) Basically my position on the war has changed....back to my initial belief. And as far as I can tell that is the only change forthcoming.

[beezer]

Kinda confused here. The core of my conservative stances are unchanged. I think illegals should be deported, they are here illegally. I am against welfare for the lazy. (Kinda makes Gods punishment of Cain irrelevant) Basically my position on the war has changed....back to my initial belief. And as far as I can tell that is the only change forthcoming.

I guess it's how you interpret scripture then. From my view: his refusal to endorse the death penalty at the federal level, he voted no on a federal ban on human cloning, and his stance against the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Those are all positions which I believe contend against the Bible. However, if you don't interpret scripture that way, that's your right. I won't badger you about it.

[jay_a2j]

Kinda confused here. The core of my conservative stances are unchanged. I think illegals should be deported, they are here illegally. I am against welfare for the lazy. (Kinda makes Gods punishment of Cain irrelevant) Basically my position on the war has changed....back to my initial belief. And as far as I can tell that is the only change forthcoming.

I guess it's how you interpret scripture then. From my view: his refusal to endorse the death penalty at the federal level, he voted no on a federal ban on human cloning, and his stance against the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Those are all positions which I believe contend against the Bible. However, if you don't interpret scripture that way, that's your right. I won't badger you about it.

Death Penalty... "Turn the other Cheek" and Forgiveness


Cloning.... um no, not good.


1964 Civil Rights Act.... unaware of this.




But hey we will never get the perfect candidate. I could pick apart the Democratic Party in a similar way.(And I actually can't fathom why a Christian would be a Democrat)


I found this quote on Ron Paul's website:

"I have never been one who is comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena. In fact, the pandering that typically occurs in the election season I find to be distasteful. But for those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do. I know, as you do, that our freedoms come not from man, but from God. My record of public service reflects my reverence for the Natural Rights with which we have been endowed by a loving Creator."

[Skittles!]

Why wouldn't a Christian be a Democrat?

I seriously have no idea why, Democrats and Republicans are both very right-wing.

[CoffeeCream]

I seriously have no idea why, Democrats and Republicans are both very right-wing.

Because of the faith of our fathers, of course!

[Snorri1234]

Why wouldn't a Christian be a Democrat?

I seriously have no idea why, Democrats and Republicans are both very right-wing.

Well obviously because Christians are all against gays and abortion and feel they should determine why others shouldn't be able to have that.

[unriggable]

Why wouldn't a Christian be a Democrat?

I seriously have no idea why, Democrats and Republicans are both very right-wing.

Democrats, at least those in Washington, are actually more right-wing than most right-wing leaders in other countries. This makes no sense

[Skittles!]

Why wouldn't a Christian be a Democrat?

I seriously have no idea why, Democrats and Republicans are both very right-wing.

Democrats, at least those in Washington, are actually more right-wing than most right-wing leaders in other countries. This makes no sense

Exactly what I was meaning.

No matter what way the American political way is, it's always right-wing.

I don't even know how right-wing Republicans are, but I seriously don't want to find out as Democrats are, as you said, more right-wing than most right-wing leaders in other countries..

[Titanic]

Why wouldn't a Christian be a Democrat?

I seriously have no idea why, Democrats and Republicans are both very right-wing.

Democrats, at least those in Washington, are actually more right-wing than most right-wing leaders in other countries. This makes no sense

Exactly what I was meaning.

No matter what way the American political way is, it's always right-wing.

I don't even know how right-wing Republicans are, but I seriously don't want to find out as Democrats are, as you said, more right-wing than most right-wing leaders in other countries..

Yer, Democrats are right-wing when compared to other parties in the world, which makes the republicans scarily right-wing.

[jay_a2j]

Why wouldn't a Christian be a Democrat?

I seriously have no idea why, Democrats and Republicans are both very right-wing.

Democrats, at least those in Washington, are actually more right-wing than most right-wing leaders in other countries. This makes no sense

Exactly what I was meaning.

No matter what way the American political way is, it's always right-wing.

I don't even know how right-wing Republicans are, but I seriously don't want to find out as Democrats are, as you said, more right-wing than most right-wing leaders in other countries..

Yer, Democrats are right-wing when compared to other parties in the world, which makes the republicans scarily right-wing.

Its not so much our democrats are right wing as it is your conservatives are LEFT wing. Which is truly scary.

[unriggable]

Why wouldn't a Christian be a Democrat?

I seriously have no idea why, Democrats and Republicans are both very right-wing.

Democrats, at least those in Washington, are actually more right-wing than most right-wing leaders in other countries. This makes no sense

Exactly what I was meaning.

No matter what way the American political way is, it's always right-wing.

I don't even know how right-wing Republicans are, but I seriously don't want to find out as Democrats are, as you said, more right-wing than most right-wing leaders in other countries..

Yer, Democrats are right-wing when compared to other parties in the world, which makes the republicans scarily right-wing.

Its not so much our democrats are right wing as it is your conservatives are LEFT wing. Which is truly scary.

Uh, no. The American right is probably the most right-wing large group of people on the planet, barring the middle east. It's all perspective.

[luns101]

Well obviously because Christians are all against gays and abortion and feel they should determine why others shouldn't be able to have that.

sort of like atheists being all against Christians and helping others and feel that they should determine when, where, and under what conditions they should be allowed to pray.

[vtmarik]

Well obviously because Christians are all against gays and abortion and feel they should determine why others shouldn't be able to have that.

sort of like atheists being all against Christians and helping others and feel that they should determine when, where, and under what conditions they should be allowed to pray.

Yay! Hyperbole on both ends!

[Backglass]

Well obviously because Christians are all against gays and abortion and feel they should determine why others shouldn't be able to have that.

sort of like atheists being all against Christians and helping others and feel that they should determine when, where, and under what conditions they should be allowed to pray.

Hey now!

Sort of like christians being against all other religions and accepting others and feel that they should determine when, where, and under what circumstances everyone should be forced to pray?

[luns101]

Well obviously because Christians are all against gays and abortion and feel they should determine why others shouldn't be able to have that.

sort of like atheists being all against Christians and helping others and feel that they should determine when, where, and under what conditions they should be allowed to pray.

Yay! Hyperbole on both ends!

Yes I made a ridiculous statement on purpose to show him how silly his statement was. Constructing a stereotype out of a generalized accusation seems to be quite prevalent among those who don't share our beliefs. If the Bible says that marriage is between one man and one woman for a lifetime why should it surprise anyone that Christians want that tradition preserved? Trying to twist that around by saying we are against homosexuals is an indirect way of trying to accuse us of bigotry.

[luns101]

Hey now!

Sort of like christians being against all other religions and accepting others and feel that they should determine when, where, and under what circumstances everyone should be forced to pray?

Another generalized accusation, Mr. Glass. We are not against all other religions. If you mean that we don't adhere to their claims, yes. If you mean that we actively go out of our way to persecute and ridicule people who have other beliefs, then no.

There is no "Wall of Separation" in the Constitution. That's a principle that has been expounded on by people who take Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists out of context and then later applied it in the Everson case.

Who is forcing you to pray? Let me at 'em!!!

[unriggable]

Well obviously because Christians are all against gays and abortion and feel they should determine why others shouldn't be able to have that.

sort of like atheists being all against Christians and helping others and feel that they should determine when, where, and under what conditions they should be allowed to pray.

Actually most of us atheists just don't see xianity as being any higher than any other religion so morning prayer should not be at public school. And helping others has nothing to do with religion, mind you. All you need to do is look at those xian pricks who ran enron.

[Snorri1234]

Yes I made a ridiculous statement on purpose to show him how silly his statement was. Constructing a stereotype out of a generalized accusation seems to be quite prevalent among those who don't share our beliefs. If the Bible says that marriage is between one man and one woman for a lifetime why should it surprise anyone that Christians want that tradition preserved? Trying to twist that around by saying we are against homosexuals is an indirect way of trying to accuse us of bigotry.

While I know how hard sarcasm is to detect on teh intarwebs, I feel you completely missed the point. I responded sarcastically to Skittles asking why Christians couldn't be democrats, with the notion that all christians are alike and don't tolerate other religions or views.