Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

[Bernie Sanders]

So, after all these pages, have we determined that Jefferson sang rap music?

Racists don't sing rap music silly. They sing, "Wish I was in the land of cotton"

[Thorthoth]

So, after all these pages, have we determined that Jefferson sang rap music?

Racists don't sing rap music silly. They sing, "Wish I was in the land of cotton"

Trust me, tons of racists sing rap music, and a few of them are even white.

[Dukasaur]

To my fellow Americans.

We were all taught that our Founding Fathers were pure of thought and Godlike in school.

Got news for most of you....they were drunkards, rapists, thiefs and opportunity takers.

You can replace that with any other country and it would be pretty much the same thing.

[DoomYoshi]

These days I stick to mainlining Pinko Commie Propaganda and talking out my heiney.

[tzor]

So, after all these pages, have we determined that Jefferson sang rap music?

Racists don't sing rap music silly. They sing, "Wish I was in the land of cotton"

One of Abraham Lincoln's favorite songs, if I recall correctly.
Oh that's right, the guy who "freed the slaves" was a Republican, therefore racist.

[riskllama]

*yawns*

[Bernie Sanders]

So, after all these pages, have we determined that Jefferson sang rap music?

Racists don't sing rap music silly. They sing, "Wish I was in the land of cotton"

One of Abraham Lincoln's favorite songs, if I recall correctly.
Oh that's right, the guy who "freed the slaves" was a Republican, therefore racist.

Really Tzor?

In the 60s the Dixiecrats who were Democrats jumped in mass to the Republican Party, cause the Democrats giving CIVIL RIGHTS and giving protections to Negroes to be able to vote without being harassed or worse. Democrats also allowed the Negroes to go to local white schools (gasp) and not be forced to sit in the back of the bus.

I won't even mention about drinking fountains and bathrooms.

President Lincoln would not recognize the Republican Party today.

Today's lesson for Tzor, your alternative truths show what a partisan moron you are.

Hey, did you hear that Secretary of State called his boss a moron?

[riskllama]

"a fucking moron" , fake been...

[Symmetry]

To my fellow Americans.

We were all taught that our Founding Fathers were pure of thought and Godlike in school.

Got news for most of you....they were drunkards, rapists, thiefs and opportunity takers.

You can replace that with any other country and it would be pretty much the same thing.

Perhaps, although I don't think there are huge number of countries that have a generation of "Founding Fathers" that are venerated in quite the same way as in the US.

I know that having a rapist in the mix is kind of a problem for some in the US. It goes against a lot of what is taught in schools and memorialised in the capital. Sometimes gods are really monsters though.

[Thorthoth]

To my fellow Americans.

We were all taught that our Founding Fathers were pure of thought and Godlike in school.

Got news for most of you....they were drunkards, rapists, thiefs and opportunity takers.

You can replace that with any other country and it would be pretty much the same thing.

Perhaps, although I don't think there are huge number of countries that have a generation of "Founding Fathers" that are venerated in quite the same way as in the US.

I know that having a rapist in the mix is kind of a problem for some in the US. It goes against a lot of what is taught in schools and memorialised in the capital. Sometimes gods are really monsters though.

...and sometimes moralistic revisionist-twerps are monsters.

[Symmetry]

To my fellow Americans.

We were all taught that our Founding Fathers were pure of thought and Godlike in school.

Got news for most of you....they were drunkards, rapists, thiefs and opportunity takers.

You can replace that with any other country and it would be pretty much the same thing.

Perhaps, although I don't think there are huge number of countries that have a generation of "Founding Fathers" that are venerated in quite the same way as in the US.

I know that having a rapist in the mix is kind of a problem for some in the US. It goes against a lot of what is taught in schools and memorialised in the capital. Sometimes gods are really monsters though.

...and sometimes moralistic revisionist-twerps are monsters.

Do you think me a monster, T?

[Thorthoth]

To my fellow Americans.

We were all taught that our Founding Fathers were pure of thought and Godlike in school.

Got news for most of you....they were drunkards, rapists, thiefs and opportunity takers.

You can replace that with any other country and it would be pretty much the same thing.

Perhaps, although I don't think there are huge number of countries that have a generation of "Founding Fathers" that are venerated in quite the same way as in the US.

I know that having a rapist in the mix is kind of a problem for some in the US. It goes against a lot of what is taught in schools and memorialised in the capital. Sometimes gods are really monsters though.

...and sometimes moralistic revisionist-twerps are monsters.

Do you think me a monster, T?

(eye roll + disgusted grimace) Do you want me to think you a monster, S?

[Symmetry]

To my fellow Americans.

We were all taught that our Founding Fathers were pure of thought and Godlike in school.

Got news for most of you....they were drunkards, rapists, thiefs and opportunity takers.

You can replace that with any other country and it would be pretty much the same thing.

Perhaps, although I don't think there are huge number of countries that have a generation of "Founding Fathers" that are venerated in quite the same way as in the US.

I know that having a rapist in the mix is kind of a problem for some in the US. It goes against a lot of what is taught in schools and memorialised in the capital. Sometimes gods are really monsters though.

...and sometimes moralistic revisionist-twerps are monsters.

Do you think me a monster, T?

(eye roll + disgusted grimace) Do you want me to think you a monster, S?

I think it depends on why you might think I could be one (to borrow a bit of Jimbo's "maybe" talk).

I do think that Jefferson was a monster though. The slavery, the rapes, the brutality, and the sheer evil of hiding it behind a public persona aimed at political power.

That does seem like a real monster. I don't think anyone wants to be thought of as a monster, T. But recognising monsters helps us understand the past instead of relying on those that wrote its history.

[tzor]

In the 60s the Dixiecrats who were Democrats jumped in mass to the Republican Party, cause the Democrats giving CIVIL RIGHTS and giving protections to Negroes to be able to vote without being harassed or worse. Democrats also allowed the Negroes to go to local white schools (gasp) and not be forced to sit in the back of the bus.

In the what? ... You and Sherman better get into that Way Back machine ... The year is 1948 ... actually ... a little before my time ...

After Roosevelt died, the new president Harry Truman established a highly visible President's Committee on Civil Rights and issued Executive Order 9981 to end discrimination in the military in 1948. A group of Southern governors such as Strom Thurmond of South Carolina and Fielding L. Wright of Mississippi met to consider the place of Southerners within the Democratic Party.

The States' Rights Democratic Party dissolved after the 1948 election, as Truman, the Democratic National Committee, and the New Deal Southern Democrats acted to ensure that the Dixiecrat movement would not return in the 1952 presidential election. Some Southern diehards, such as Leander Perez of Louisiana, attempted to keep it in existence in their districts. Former Dixiecrats received some backlash at the 1952 Democratic National Convention, but all Southern delegations were seated after agreeing to a party loyalty pledge.

Now this leads us back to Strom Thurmond, but we haven't yet his the 60's yet.

In 1952, Thurmond endorsed Republican Dwight Eisenhower for the Presidency, rather than the Democratic nominee Adlai Stevenson. State Democratic Party leaders blocked Thurmond from receiving the nomination to the Senate in 1954, and he ran as a write-in candidate.

Now we get to the 60's.

Thurmond was increasingly at odds with the national Democratic Party, some of whose leaders were supporting the civil rights movement led by African Americans in the South seeking enforcement of their constitutional rights as citizens to suffrage and equal treatment under the law. The passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 curbed the disenfranchisement of blacks in Southern states such as South Carolina. On September 16, 1964, he switched his party affiliation to the Republican Party.

So we can see a growing pattern of Thurmond being annoyed with the Leadership of the Democratic Party, especially with upstarts like Truman, Kennedy, etc (all northerners by the way ... odd isn't it ... should we jump back into the Way Back machine to see how the northern/southern split allowed the election of the Republican Abraham Lincoln) and not with the party in general. In fact if we look at the key votes of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 we see the following ... it's not Democrat / Republican ... it's North / South ...

The original House version:

Southern Democrats: 7–87 (7–93%)
Southern Republicans: 0–10 (0–100%)
Northern Democrats: 145–9 (94–6%)
Northern Republicans: 138–24 (85–15%)

The Senate version:

Southern Democrats: 1–20 (5–95%) (only Ralph Yarborough of Texas voted in favor)
Southern Republicans: 0–1 (0–100%) (John Tower of Texas)
Northern Democrats: 45–1 (98–2%) (only Robert Byrd of West Virginia voted against)
Northern Republicans: 27–5 (84–16%)

The move was effectively a big FU to the effectively one party system at the time in the South. It didn't mean that one party was better than the other because both Southern Republicans and Southern Democrats voted against Civil Rights. The Republicans were the only other game in town.

[Symmetry]

The Strom Thurmond case seems weird to me- a guy who obviously was a racist, but rejected that in later life. That's a success story.

Some of the more right wing people want to see it as a betrayal, or some kind of hypocrisy though.

Jefferson was nothing like Thurmond.

[jimboston]

do you ever get tired of winning, jimbo?

It doesn't happen all the time, trust me. I'm married.

We all can't wait until you have a daughter and she gets some attention from a much older man.

Until then......STFU!

So you have a daughter who was raped by a much older man?

No?

OK, then I guess we both have to STFU!

Seriously if you have to be the victim of a crime or closely related to the victim of a crime to have an opinion... then most of us probably should STFU. Additionally, we couldn't make any laws because Congress wouldn't have the necessary Quorum to do so.

Are you truly this stupid Bernie?

[jimboston]

The "legality" of the matter is simple, it wasn't, since it was flat out adultery.

Why was it adultery? Jefferson's wife was dead by that point. He didn't start diddling Sally until after Martha died. I don't think Sally Hemings was ever married.

I originally ignored tzor's comment because it's not worth attention.

An act can be both adultery and pedophilia. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Regardless though... the thread's about rape, not pedophilia.
Another reason to try to ignore these side arguments.

[jimboston]

To my fellow Americans.

We were all taught that our Founding Fathers were pure of thought and Godlike in school.

Got news for most of you....they were drunkards, rapists, thiefs and opportunity takers.

Hey. You're right about something.

Well kinda.

You should say "they were human beings, with qualities both good and bad".

I highly doubt they were all "drunkard, rapists, thieves (spelling), and opportunity takers".
So far we've had no evidence proving this specific Founding Father was a rapist.

We should acknowledge they were humans... but we should reserve judgement on actual crimes until we have evidence.

[jimboston]

So, after all these pages, have we determined that Jefferson sang rap music?

Racists don't sing rap music silly. They sing, "Wish I was in the land of cotton"

This is neither funny nor provocative.

At least you can reserve your posts till they have some value?

[jimboston]

So, after all these pages, have we determined that Jefferson sang rap music?

Racists don't sing rap music silly. They sing, "Wish I was in the land of cotton"

One of Abraham Lincoln's favorite songs, if I recall correctly.
Oh that's right, the guy who "freed the slaves" was a Republican, therefore racist.

Really Tzor?

In the 60s the Dixiecrats who were Democrats jumped in mass to the Republican Party, cause the Democrats giving CIVIL RIGHTS and giving protections to Negroes to be able to vote without being harassed or worse. Democrats also allowed the Negroes to go to local white schools (gasp) and not be forced to sit in the back of the bus.

I won't even mention about drinking fountains and bathrooms.

President Lincoln would not recognize the Republican Party today.

Today's lesson for Tzor, your alternative truths show what a partisan moron you are.

Hey, did you hear that Secretary of State called his boss a moron?

OFF TOPIC

Moderators please ask Bernie to start a new thread if he wants to go off topic.

[jimboston]

To my fellow Americans.

We were all taught that our Founding Fathers were pure of thought and Godlike in school.

Got news for most of you....they were drunkards, rapists, thiefs and opportunity takers.

You can replace that with any other country and it would be pretty much the same thing.

Perhaps, although I don't think there are huge number of countries that have a generation of "Founding Fathers" that are venerated in quite the same way as in the US.

I know that having a rapist in the mix is kind of a problem for some in the US. It goes against a lot of what is taught in schools and memorialised in the capital. Sometimes gods are really monsters though.

This would be an interesting post if we actually had a rapist in the mix.

We don't.

We have a possible rapist.

Then again that term could apply to almost anyone and is therefore meaningless.

How about we agree to "suspected rapist"? That's about as far as you can go given the evidence you've presented.
I may even agree to "highly suspected rapist"... but I'm not going as far a "likely rapist".

[jimboston]

I think it depends on why you might think I could be one (to borrow a bit of Jimbo's "maybe" talk).

I do think that Jefferson was a monster though. The slavery, the rapes, the brutality, and the sheer evil of hiding it behind a public persona aimed at political power.

That does seem like a real monster. I don't think anyone wants to be thought of as a monster, T. But recognising monsters helps us understand the past instead of relying on those that wrote its history.

I don't think you are a monster Sym.

I think you've dug in your heels on this point and are unwilling to lose to logic.

I agree Jefferson was a flawed human.
His biggest flaw was likely his vanity and his desire to leave a "Legacy".
(Ironically his desire to hide his affair to leave a well-regarded legacy is back-firing as the attitudes of the public are changing.)

To judge him a "monster" for being a slave-holder is not fair.
He was a product of his time and you must judge him by the moors of his time.

If you can't do this you are;
a) an idiot
b) basically condemning all of our ancestors
(It's statistically very likely that the vast majority of all-people-living have both slaves and slave-masters [or related 'evil' people like the people who caught/traded slaves] in our bloodlines.)

[Bernie Sanders]

You are such a bore....

[jimboston]

You are such a bore....

Example of irony.

[Bernie Sanders]

You are such a bore....

Example of irony.

Enough said diaper boy.