Was 9/11 just a plot by the U.S. government

[Backglass]

"Standing in line marking time,
Waiting for the welfare dime.
'Cause they can't buy a job.

The man in the silk suit hurries by
As he catches the poor old ladies' eyes
Just for fun he says "Get a job"...

That's just the way it is
Some things will never change"

-Bruce Hornsby

[heavycola]

Sadly there are poor people who are poor by choice. As well as rich people who never earned a dime. Its when people yell, "Yeah, the top 1% are evil! Tax cuts benefit ONLY the rich!" that really bugs me. I am by no means rich and I don't think the rich should be required to make my life easier. The welfare rolls are chuck full of lazy people (and lets not even get into social security disability). There was a time when I struggled to make ends meet yet I held no resentment for the guy in the BMW. For the most part, people earn what they deserve to earn. If you want to make more go to school, learn a trade. I don't understand the concept of being homeless... with the welfare system, shelters, churches and charities no one should be without a home.

Wow your a bastard. People are poor because they dont work hard? Rich people are so because they work hard? Thats crap. Its your upbringing and family background thats the most important. A rich ass kid who get to go to independant schools like Grammar or Eton or Harrow will obviously get a much better job then almost anyone who goes into the state system. They are privelidged from birth.

The poor have to quit school at an early age to get a job ans support themselves and bring extra money into the family. The only ones who continue after legal requirements are the ones on generous scholorship schemes or the ones who are naturally cleverer then the rest, so the parents support them into college and university.

What you said is utter crap. The benefit system does work to an extent. Of course there are people who abuse it, but no system in the world is 100% perfect. It does most of its job very well.

Also, saying poor people are poor because they dont work is a disgrace. I know quite a lot of people who have unskilled manual labour jobs, and they work like fcking crazy, because to them every extra hours wage (every hour of minimum wage that is) is valuable. They need every pound and penny they can get, and they work for it. Rich people can go on cruises or holidays twice a year, whilst poor people work 50+ weeks in a year and just save up enough money for a Christmas hamper or some knock off presents for their kids. Thats the truth, get out of your stereotypical bullshit bubble.

You have succeeded in misrepresenting my position. I never said poor people are poor because they don't work hard OR that rich people are rich because they work hard. There are poor people who are poor because they are lazy (not all so don't get your knickers in a wad again). The system is broke. There are probably more people on it, abusing it, then there are people on it that need it and work hard and still can't make ends meet.


Thank God some people just won't settle for "just making it". Some people hunker down and achieve greater things in life because they choose not to "settle" for just making it. You seem to have a lot of "excuses" for why people are poor. I'm just saying people don't have to trap themselves in that train of thought. That ANYONE can achieve bigger and better things. Sorry if I don't sound liberal enough for you... "Don't worry poor people the government will take care of you" or "You can't do it...so let us help".

Jay this is an astonishing POV for a christian, if i may be so bold. You seem to equate riches and success - 'great things' - with money. Are poor people really either lazy or unlucky?
OK i can;t really comment on the chrstian or unchristian aspects of your post - but i do think that everyone has a right to the basics - roof, food, air. That;s what welfare should do. Havign said that, why is success in life measured by so many people by how much moeny they have made or what job they do or what size house they live in? If this attitude shifted I am sure a lot of people would be much happier (and a whole lot more would be less trampled on).

Anyway that's what I think about the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11. Or about brokeback mountain being shown in schools. Whatever thread this is, i forget.

[Titanic]

You have succeeded in misrepresenting my position. I never said poor people are poor because they don't work hard OR that rich people are rich because they work hard. There are poor people who are poor because they are lazy (not all so don't get your knickers in a wad again). The system is broke. There are probably more people on it, abusing it, then there are people on it that need it and work hard and still can't make ends meet.

Thank God some people just won't settle for "just making it". Some people hunker down and achieve greater things in life because they choose not to "settle" for just making it. You seem to have a lot of "excuses" for why people are poor. I'm just saying people don't have to trap themselves in that train of thought. That ANYONE can achieve bigger and better things. Sorry if I don't sound liberal enough for you... "Don't worry poor people the government will take care of you" or "You can't do it...so let us help".

They are not excuses, they are reason. Not everyone can achieve "bigger and better" things. Someone growing up in a ghetto going to a run down school with a load of junkies stands next to no chance of becoming a top flight professor or expert in any field. However, almost every kid going to private school paid for by their rich parents has the chance to become almost anything that they want. Rich people are allowed and get much more opportunities then poor people, and it is easier for them to get a job and stable life then a poor person.

The system is not that bad. No government system is perfect, but it does its job even though it has its critics. No way is there more people abusing it then there are people who need it. Most of the people on it need the money to keep themselves alive after they have been made redundant or had a major accident or have been disabled badly. There is the odd exception of the person who will sit and home and do jackshit and claim benefits, but that is very very rare.

[chewyman]

why is success in life measured by so many people by how much moeny they have made or what job they do or what size house they live in? If this attitude shifted I am sure a lot of people would be much happier (and a whole lot more would be less trampled on).

Why is it always the people who say that money doesn't matter that you see waiting in the welfare lines for a free handout?

A lack of education is a handicap, but it isn't a death sentence when it comes to wealth. The richest Australian isn't a prestigious university educated CEO, it's a man called Lindsey Fox, a truck driver! Drive, motivation and intelligence (as opposed to education) are what will inevitably define how successful you are.




EDIT: HUZZAH for my 300th post!!

[jay_a2j]

Jay this is an astonishing POV for a christian, if i may be so bold. You seem to equate riches and success - 'great things' - with money. Are poor people really either lazy or unlucky?
OK i can;t really comment on the chrstian or unchristian aspects of your post - but i do think that everyone has a right to the basics - roof, food, air. That;s what welfare should do. Havign said that, why is success in life measured by so many people by how much moeny they have made or what job they do or what size house they live in? If this attitude shifted I am sure a lot of people would be much happier (and a whole lot more would be less trampled on).

Anyway that's what I think about the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11. Or about brokeback mountain being shown in schools. Whatever thread this is, i forget.

I was actually trying to omit my faith in that post. I don't think me saying, "True success can only come from Jesus" would get a positive response.(which I believe is true) I also believe that money can't make a person happy. I am just pointing out the optimism of Republicans and the pessimism of Democrats. The "Go out and DO" attitude versus the "I give up. I'll rely on someone else to take care of me" attitude.

[heavycola]

why is success in life measured by so many people by how much moeny they have made or what job they do or what size house they live in? If this attitude shifted I am sure a lot of people would be much happier (and a whole lot more would be less trampled on).

Why is it always the people who say that money doesn't matter that you see waiting in the welfare lines for a free handout?

I never said money doesn;t matter - it matters greatly - but it's not important.

Thoreau was, to read Walden, one of the happiest and most contented men, and 'all' he achieved was to build a log cabin, grow some beans and swim in a lake. Success is all relative and all about how you see your life. If the accumulation of material wealth is your raison d'etre, so be it. Good luck. For others, success might be about raising good kids. it's not a quantifiable thing. Like jay says, you don;t measure happiness in money.

However jay your political generalisations do you no credit.

[Backglass]

I am just pointing out the optimism of Republicans and the pessimism of Democrats. The "Go out and DO" attitude versus the "I give up. I'll rely on someone else to take care of me" attitude.

You really do listen to Hannitty & Limbaugh waaayyy to much. Do you even know any democrats?

[jay_a2j]

I am just pointing out the optimism of Republicans and the pessimism of Democrats. The "Go out and DO" attitude versus the "I give up. I'll rely on someone else to take care of me" attitude.

You really do listen to Hannitty & Limbaugh waaayyy to much. Do you even know any democrats?

Allan Combs
Michael Moore
Nancy Pelosi
Rosie O'Donnell
James Carvel
Hilary Clinton
Elliot Spitzer
Most of Hollywood

to name a few

[Backglass]

Exactly. You don't know any...hence your odd and twisted perception.

[jay_a2j]

Exactly. You don't know any...hence your odd and twisted perception.

On the contrary, I know plenty. They infest my workplace, my kids schools, out in front of the local KFC holding up protest signs about "killing animals". The only thing "twisted" is the way they think.

[chewyman]

why is success in life measured by so many people by how much moeny they have made or what job they do or what size house they live in? If this attitude shifted I am sure a lot of people would be much happier (and a whole lot more would be less trampled on).

Why is it always the people who say that money doesn't matter that you see waiting in the welfare lines for a free handout?

I never said money doesn;t matter - it matters greatly - but it's not important.

Thoreau was, to read Walden, one of the happiest and most contented men, and 'all' he achieved was to build a log cabin, grow some beans and swim in a lake. Success is all relative and all about how you see your life. If the accumulation of material wealth is your raison d'etre, so be it. Good luck. For others, success might be about raising good kids. it's not a quantifiable thing. Like jay says, you don;t measure happiness in money.

Sure, I'll agree with that. But did the people in your example rely on welfare? If you are on welfare then money clearly matters to you since money is the reason people go onto welfare payments in the first place.

[heavycola]

why is success in life measured by so many people by how much moeny they have made or what job they do or what size house they live in? If this attitude shifted I am sure a lot of people would be much happier (and a whole lot more would be less trampled on).

Why is it always the people who say that money doesn't matter that you see waiting in the welfare lines for a free handout?

I never said money doesn;t matter - it matters greatly - but it's not important.

Thoreau was, to read Walden, one of the happiest and most contented men, and 'all' he achieved was to build a log cabin, grow some beans and swim in a lake. Success is all relative and all about how you see your life. If the accumulation of material wealth is your raison d'etre, so be it. Good luck. For others, success might be about raising good kids. it's not a quantifiable thing. Like jay says, you don;t measure happiness in money.

Sure, I'll agree with that. But did the people in your example rely on welfare? If you are on welfare then money clearly matters to you since money is the reason people go onto welfare payments in the first place.

Again, I never said money doesn't matter.
Slight digression: As part of my job I had to interview a refused asylum seeker from Darfur a few weeks back. When you are refused asylum in the UK, the govt stops all benefits. They try to starve you until you go home, basically. That's not a bleeding-heart liberal appraisal of the situation - it's practically official policy, according to refugee workers i spoke to. This guy was dependent entirely on handouts of tinned food twice a week from a one-woman refugee charity. He had to sleep rough, became mentally ill, physically unhealthy and just lost hope. It was an incredibly sad situation (he's back on basic benefits now as his appeal is being heard). He is the only truly destitute person i have ever met.
Should that guy - who had been through hell in darfur and incredible danger in leaving the country. i.e. certainly not a lazy or a helpless man - have whistled his cares away? Was being penniless just a load off his mind? Of course not. I don't think sustained happiness would have been possible for him (in fact he began to suffer from severe depression).
Money obviously matters. To everyone. In our society we need it.
But welfare and destitution are not dirty or perjorative words, and money is not a yardstick of success. And if it is, it's a posionous, destructive notion.

[Gustaf Wasa]

It is clear that the neocons who have hijacked the Republican Party have not told the full story about 9/11, as they wanted to use it to invade Israel's enemies in the Middle East, those nations that have given financial and diplomatic aid to the Palestinian resistance: Iraq, Iran and Syria. Of course, since many of the neocons come from the Israeli lobby groups.

But most people won't listen to facts, they will listen to authority. Very well.

Here is a link with a list of top brass who question the official version of 9/11, as laid forth by the 9/11 Commission. It is a long list. Are these kooks and nutjobs? How many still believe the official conspiracy theory, and ignore the many questions left unanswered?

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/


Here are some of the names:


U.S. FEDERAL AND STATE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS

Senator Max Cleland – Former member of the 9/11 Commission, resigned in December 2003. Currently serves on the board of directors of the Export-Import Bank of the United States.

"As each day goes by, we learn that this government knew a whole lot more about these terrorists before Sept. 11 than it has ever admitted."

Senator Bob Graham – Former U.S. Senator from Florida 1987 - 2004. Former Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. Co-Chairman of the Joint House-Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (JICI) that investigated the events of 9/11.

Senator Mark Dayton – Former U.S. Senator from Minnesota 2001 - 2006. Member, Senate Committee on Armed Services and Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Services.

"They [NORAD] lied to the American people, they lied to Congress and they lied to your 9/11 Commission."

Gov. Jesse Ventura – 38th Governor of Minnesota 1999 - 2003 –

Congressman Ron Paul, MD – 9-term Congressman from Texas, 1979 - 1985, 1997 - present. Member of the House Financial Services Committee, the International Relations committee, and the Joint Economic Committee. On the Financial Services Committee, he serves as the Vice Chairman of the Oversight and Investigations subcommittee.

"And like you and others, we see the investigations that have been done so far as more or less cover-up and no real explanation of what went on."

Congressman Dennis Kucinich – 6-term Congressman from Ohio. Former mayor of Cleveland. Chairman of the Domestic Policy Subcommittee of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.

Congressman Curt Weldon – Former 10-term Congressman from Pennsylvania 1987 - 2006. Former Vice Chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee. Former Vice Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee.

"I am not a conspiracy theorist, but there is something desperately wrong, Mr. Speaker. There is something outrageous at work here."

Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney – Former 6-term Congresswoman from Georgia 1993 - 2002, 2005 - 2006. Member of the House Armed Services Committee and Member of the International Relations Committee. Georgia state legislator 1988 - 1992.

"What happened to those reports that surfaced within months of September 11th stating that 7 or more of the alleged hijackers had come forward and claimed that they were victims of stolen identities ...? Why did the Commission choose not even to address this?"

Edward L. Peck – Deputy Director of the White House Task Force on Terrorism under Ronald Reagan.

Morton Goulder – Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence and Warning under Presidents Nixon, Ford, and Carter (1973 - 1977).

Paul Craig Roberts, PhD – Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Treasury under Ronald Reagan, "Father of Reaganomics", Former Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal.

"We know that it is strictly impossible for any building, much less steel columned buildings, to "pancake" at free fall speed. Therefore, it is a non-controversial fact that the official explanation of the collapse of the WTC buildings is false."



U.S. MILITARY OFFICERS

General Wesley Clark

"We've never finished the investigation of 9/11 and whether the administration actually misused the intelligence information it had. The evidence seems pretty clear to me. I've seen that for a long time."

Major General Albert Stubblebine -- Former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984

"One of my experiences in the Army was being in charge of the Army’s Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence during the Cold War. I measured pieces of Soviet equipment from photographs. It was my job. I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon. And I said, ‘The plane does not fit in that hole’. So what did hit the Pentagon? What hit it? Where is it? What's going on?"

Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps -- Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense during the Reagan Administration

Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force -- Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter

"A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It’s impossible. … There’s a second group of facts having to do with the cover up. … Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don’t want us to know what happened and who’s responsible.…"

Col. George Nelson, U.S. Air Force -- Former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority

"With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged."

Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force --Former Political-Military Affairs Officer in the Office of the Secretary of Defense

There was a dearth of visible debris on the relatively unmarked [Pentagon] lawn, where I stood only minutes after the impact. Beyond this strange absence of airliner debris, there was no sign of the kind of damage to the Pentagon structure one would expect from the impact of a large airliner. This visible evidence or lack thereof may also have been apparent to the secretary of defense [Donald Rumsfeld], who in an unfortunate slip of the tongue referred to the aircraft that slammed into the Pentagon as a "missile".

... I saw nothing of significance at the point of impact - no airplane metal or cargo debris was blowing on the lawn in front of the damaged building as smoke billowed from within the Pentagon. ... all of us staring at the Pentagon that morning were indeed looking for such debris, but what we expected to see was not evident.

The same is true with regard to the kind of damage we expected. ... But I did not see this kind of damage. Rather, the facade had a rather small hole, no larger than 20 feet in diameter. Although this facade later collapsed, it remained standing for 30 or 40 minutes, with the roof line remaining relatively straight.

The scene, in short, was not what I would have expected from a strike by a large jetliner. It was, however, exactly what one would expect if a missile had struck the Pentagon.

U.S. INTELLIGENCE SERVICES AND LAW ENFORCEMENT

Raymond L. McGovern – Former Chairman, National Intelligence Estimates, CIA, responsible for preparing the President’ Daily Brief (PDB) for Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush. 27-year CIA veteran. Former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer.

William Christison – Former National Intelligence Officer and Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis. 29-year CIA veteran.

Robert David Steele (Vivas) – U.S. Marine Corps infantry and intelligence officer for twenty years. Second-ranking civilian (GS-14) in U.S. Marine Corps Intelligence from 1988 - 1992 and a member of the Adjunct Faculty of Marine Corps University.

Melvin A. Goodman, PhD – Former Division Chief and Senior Analyst at the Office of Soviet Affairs, CIA,1966 - 1990. Senior Analyst at the Bureau of Intelligence and Research, State Department, 1974 - 1976. Professor of International Security at the National War College 1986 - 2004. Currently Senior Fellow at the Center for International Policy and Adjunct Professor of International Relations at Johns Hopkins University.

Sibel D. Edmonds – Witness before the 9/11 Commission. Former Language Translation Specialist, performing translations for counterterrorism and counterintelligence operations, FBI.

Bogdan Dzakovic – Witness before the 9/11 Commission. 14-year Counter-terrorism expert in the Security Division of the Federal Aviation Administration. Team Leader of the FAA's Red (Terrorism) Team, which conducted undercover tests on airport security through simulated terrorist attacks.



INTERNATIONAL MILITARY, INTELLIGENCE SERVICES AND GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS

Francesco Cossiga – Former President of Italy (1985 - 1992) and Former Prime Minister.

General Leonid Ivashov – Former Chief of Staff of the Russian armed forces on 9/11/2001, and Department Chief for General affairs in the Soviet Union's Ministry of Defense.

"Only secret services and their current chiefs – or those retired but still having influence inside the state organizations – have the ability to plan, organize and conduct an operation of such magnitude. ...

"Osama bin Laden and "Al Qaeda" cannot be the organizers nor the performers of the September 11 attacks. They do not have the necessary organization, resources or leaders."

Paul Hellyer – Former Minister of National Defense of Canada. Former Deputy Prime Minister. Former Member of House of Commons.

"Why did the President just sit in the schoolroom when he heard the news? Why did he not acknowledge that he already knew what was going on? As a former Minister of National Defense, when the news came out I had to wonder. Why did airplanes fly around for an hour and a half without interceptors being scrambled from Andrews [Air Force Base]?"

Peter Dale Scott, PhD – Former Canadian diplomat who served at the United Nations and the Canadian Embassy in Warsaw, Poland. Professor Emeritus of English at the University of California, Berkeley.

"The American people have been seriously misled about the origins of the al Qaeda movement blamed for the 9/11 attacks, just as they have been seriously misled about the reasons for America’s invasion of Iraq."

Michael Meacher – Former Under Secretary for Industry, Under Secretary for Health and Social Security, Minister for the Environment, and Member of the House of Commons (UK).

Regarding the 9/11 Commission Report "It was a 580-page avoidance of any serious explanation."

Tony Benn - Former Member of British Parliament 1942 - 2001. Longest serving MP in the history of the Labour party. Former Minister of Technology. Former Secretary of State for Industry. Former Secretary of State for Energy. Former Postmaster General.

"[T]he Bush administration has never offered a detailed and documented account of its claims about the events of 9-11 which have allegedly revolutionized human affairs. Nor has it explained obvious and serious discrepancies in its own statements and actions."

Andreas von Buelow, PhD – Former State Secretary of the Federal Ministry of Defense of West Germany. Former Minister of Research and Technology. Member of Bundestag (Parliament) 1969 - 1994.

"The official story is so inadequate and far-fetched that there must be another one."

Horst Ehmke, PhD – Former Minister of Justice (West Germany). Former Minister for Research and Technology. Cabinet Member under Chancellors Kurt Kiesinger and Willy Brandt 1966 - 1974. Professor of Law, University of Freiburg

"Terrorists could not have carried out such an operation with four hijacked planes without the support of a secret service."

Ernst Welteke – Former President of Deutsche Bundesbank (German Federal Bank) 1999 - 2004. German politician and political economist. Member of the Hessian State Parliament, 1974 - 1995.

Gen. Hosni Mubarak – President of Egypt, 1981 - present. Former Vice President, 1975 - 1981. Former Commander of the Egyptian Air Force and Deputy Minister of War.

"I find it hard to believe that people who were learning to fly in Florida could, within a year and a half, fly large commercial airlines and hit with accuracy the towers of the World Trade Center which would appear, to the pilot from the air, the size of a pencil. Only a professional pilot could carry out this mission, not someone who learned to fly for 18 months in Florida."

Mohamed Hassanein Heikal – Former Foreign Minister of Egypt.

"Bin Laden does not have the capabilities for an operation of this magnitude. When I hear Bush talking about al-Qaida as if it was Nazi Germany or the communist party of the Soviet Union, I laugh because I know what is there. Bin Laden has been under surveillance for years: every telephone call was monitored and al-Qaida has been penetrated by American intelligence, Pakistani intelligence, Saudi intelligence, Egyptian intelligence. They could not have kept secret an operation that required such a degree of organisation and sophistication."

General Pervez Musharraf – President of Pakistan and Chief of Staff of the Pakistan Army. Assumed power on October 12, 1999 after a coup d'état and assumed the title of President on June 20, 2001. [and a U.S. ally]

"I didn't think it possible that Osama sitting up there in the mountains could do it"

General Mirza Aslam Beg – Former Chief of Staff of the Pakistani Army.

Giulietto Chiesa – Member of European Parliament, 2004 - present (Italy). Vice Chairman, Committee on International Trade. Member of Committee on Security and Defense. Journalist 1980 - 2004.

"Four years ago, an enormous media event changed the course of the world. Billions of people were given only one explanation for that, which is entirely false."

Paul Lannoye – Member of European Parliament, 1989 - 2004 (Belgium). Former Vice Chairman, Committee on Energy, Research and Technology. Former Vice Chairman, Committee on the Environment, Public Health and Consumer Protection.

Col. Pierre-Henri Bunel, French Army (ret) – Army intelligence and artillery officer. Graduate of École Militaire of St. Cyr. Expert in the effects of artillery weapons and explosives. Served in the Gulf War as battlefield damage assessment officer and aide-de-camp to French General Michel Roquejoffre. Bunel was one of four French officers decorated by General Norman Schwarzkopf for service in the Gulf War.

"This photo, and the effects described in the official version, lead me therefore to think that the detonation that struck the building was that of a high-powered hollow charge used to destroy hardened buildings and carried by an aerial vehicle, a missile."

Heikki Kurttila, D.Sc. (Tech.) (Doctor of Technology) – Safety Engineer and Accident Analyst, National Safety Technology Authority (TUKES), Finland. Specialist in the investigation of pressure vessel explosion accidents and the impacts of the shock waves caused by them.

David Shayler – Former Counter-Terrorism Officer, MI5 (Britain)

"The available evidence indicates that people in key positions in the FBI, the State Department, the CIA and so on were not loyal to the Constitution;"

[Backglass]

A lovely list, but a list of lemmings does not a conspiracy make.

And what "official version". We are talking about the collapse of the trade center itself, not the hijackings, security, etc.

Plenty of structural engineers, metalurgists and designers have weighed in on the WTC collapse, and they have explained it all in great detail. The WTC collapse is probably the #1 object of study for every engineering class worldwide...and will be for years to come. Yet these non-governmental experts who would be the first to see something amiss have not joined the conspiracy bandwagon. Why? Because the towers were not imploded by secret agents planting charges.

Another question. If the towers WERE purposely imploded...why the long wait? Why didn't they fire those charges a few minutes after the planes flew in?

If a plane never flew into the Pentagon...where did this 757, a very large plane, go? Where are all the passengers and crew? Imprisoned? Killed? What about the radar data showing the path of the plane? How did they make the plane vanish and a missile take it's place? David Copperfield?

The Iraq debacle should be evidence enough that our government just isn't capable of pulling off something as MASSIVE as the conspiracy you believe in. They couldn't keep Abu Graib quiet..yet they are keeping thousands of co-conspirator's silent on the biggest attack on US citizens in recent history? FOR FIVE YEARS?

[Iz Man]

How did they make the plane vanish and a missile take it's place? David Copperfield?

Well yeah.... DUH

[Gustaf Wasa]

A lovely list, but a list of lemmings does not a conspiracy make.

And what "official version". We are talking about the collapse of the trade center itself, not the hijackings, security, etc.

This is hilarious. Those who question the holes in the 9/11 Commission Report are "lemmings" according to Backglass! So Senator Max Cleland, former member of the Commission, is a lemming. Senator Bob Graham, former chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, is a lemming. General Wesley Clark is a lemming. The former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command is a lemming. The guy from the CIA who prepared the daily briefings for Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush is a lemming. The former Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis is a lemming. The former President of Italy - a lemming. The former Minister of National Defense in Canada - a lemming. The former Minister of Justice in Germany is a lemming. The President of Egypt is a lemming. Fantastic.

(Note: only those officers and CIA analysts etc who are retired can voice their doubts. Otherwise they'd get fired, in the current neocon-controlled environment. A Senator is elected though, so he can voice his doubts while still serving his term. Imagine how many other generals, counter-terrorist analysts etc who are still serving, who would like to speak up but would ruin their careers in doing so.)


You ask, "What official version", Backglass?

Oh, my.

That I would actually have to say this: the 9/11 Commission Report, that's the official version.

If you didn't even know that ... I have to wonder if you know anything at all, or are just regurgigating the neocon line.

When even an eye witness, an officer at the Pentagon, says they didn't see any plane after the impact at the Pentagon, and when pictures show not a trace of an airplane --- then you have to be a lemming to still claim there was one.

Hunt the Boeing! http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/ ... urs_en.htm
Note: the hole seen here is much bigger than the initial hole, seen by Lt. Helen Kwiatkowski, as reported in her statement above. These pictures were taken after the ceiling fell down. From the beginning, it was actually just a hole in the wall.

[Anarkistsdream]

Hunt the Boeing! http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/ ... urs_en.htm
Note: the hole seen here is much bigger than the initial hole, seen by Lt. Helen Kwiatkowski, as reported in her statement above. These pictures were taken after the ceiling fell down. From the beginning, it was actually just a hole in the wall.

Pretty cool site, Gustaf!!!

I don't know what to believe, but I know that we have been in the dark long enough, and enough smokescreen was thrown up by immediately after 9/11 by declaring war on the Taliban for us to ever really know the truth...

[Jenos Ridan]

It is not a conspiracy. For the exact reasons backglass pointed out. Anybody who honestly believes it was is an idiot, plain and simple. Terrorists hijacked four passenger jets and flew them into buildings. What is so hard to believe about that? Occam's Razor, people, come on now, have a think.

[Guiscard]

Chomsky:

http://www.youtube.com/jp.swf?video_id=LoDqDvbgeXM&eurl=http%3A//www.google.co.uk/search%3Fhl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla%253Aen-GB%253Aofficial%26hs%3DOPl%26q%3Dchom&iurl=http%3A//img.youtube.com/vi/LoDqDvbgeXM/2.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskJoFePeCiMU4VJ2nL_CQMi3

How the hell do you think the US government, so incompetent in so many regards, would have completely carried out this thing with no leaks and no mistakes. Forget the science. We have no precedent so it is hard to judge exactly what would happen... What we do have precedent for is massive government coverups (Nixon, anyone?) How the hell would they have kept it under wraps so well?

[Serbia]

Some people are just plain stupid. Backglass, we should just go get a beer and forget these lunatics. No logic can convince them. People like this believe what they want to believe, and only see the evidence that supports their position (even when the 'evidence' they possess is clearly false).

[chewyman]

why is success in life measured by so many people by how much moeny they have made or what job they do or what size house they live in? If this attitude shifted I am sure a lot of people would be much happier (and a whole lot more would be less trampled on).

Why is it always the people who say that money doesn't matter that you see waiting in the welfare lines for a free handout?

I never said money doesn;t matter - it matters greatly - but it's not important.

Thoreau was, to read Walden, one of the happiest and most contented men, and 'all' he achieved was to build a log cabin, grow some beans and swim in a lake. Success is all relative and all about how you see your life. If the accumulation of material wealth is your raison d'etre, so be it. Good luck. For others, success might be about raising good kids. it's not a quantifiable thing. Like jay says, you don;t measure happiness in money.

Sure, I'll agree with that. But did the people in your example rely on welfare? If you are on welfare then money clearly matters to you since money is the reason people go onto welfare payments in the first place.

Again, I never said money doesn't matter.
Slight digression: As part of my job I had to interview a refused asylum seeker from Darfur a few weeks back. When you are refused asylum in the UK, the govt stops all benefits. They try to starve you until you go home, basically. That's not a bleeding-heart liberal appraisal of the situation - it's practically official policy, according to refugee workers i spoke to. This guy was dependent entirely on handouts of tinned food twice a week from a one-woman refugee charity. He had to sleep rough, became mentally ill, physically unhealthy and just lost hope. It was an incredibly sad situation (he's back on basic benefits now as his appeal is being heard). He is the only truly destitute person i have ever met.
Should that guy - who had been through hell in darfur and incredible danger in leaving the country. i.e. certainly not a lazy or a helpless man - have whistled his cares away? Was being penniless just a load off his mind? Of course not. I don't think sustained happiness would have been possible for him (in fact he began to suffer from severe depression).
Money obviously matters. To everyone. In our society we need it.
But welfare and destitution are not dirty or perjorative words, and money is not a yardstick of success. And if it is, it's a posionous, destructive notion.

If he was a war refugee then his appeal should accept that and give him a temporary visa and provide the basics for him. But refugees as a whole should either find jobs or leave the country, welfare should not be an option.

[jay_a2j]

It is not a conspiracy. For the exact reasons backglass pointed out. Anybody who honestly believes it was is an idiot, plain and simple. Terrorists hijacked four passenger jets and flew them into buildings. What is so hard to believe about that? Occam's Razor, people, come on now, have a think.

I'll tell you what's so hard to believe about that. These terrorist were linked to Osama, who himself claimed responsibility for 911. Now, that FACT that we are no longer pursuing Osama, hardly ever hear about him on the NEWS, it JUST PLAIN CRAZY! It'd be kinda like going into Iraq after Saddam, then once there just forget about him and let him get away!

I tried and tried to "stay the course" of believing that 911 was a legitimate terrorist attack. I had ignored the evidence the "conspiracy nuts" put forth. But something doesn't sit right in my gut. The lack of interest in Osama has me scratching my head, searching for reasons. None came.

[got tonkaed]

I would say that the comptency of the American gov could seriously be brought into question and makes the idea that they could have perpetrated something so swiftly and efficently rather improbable. One of the things im reading right now documents how the intelligence agency was incredibly misused in the days right after the attack, and certainly if there was some kind of event, one could assume that if the procedures they used in order to plan the war against Afghanistan were the modus operandi in general, theres no way they could have pulled such a large scale plan off without a hitch.

[jay_a2j]

theres no way they could have pulled such a large scale plan off without a hitch.

I'm sure thats what the Germans thought before Poland was invaded. Hitler succeeded in fooling the German people.

[vtmarik]

(Long ass URL)

Can you TinyURL that sucker? It's fucking up the page.