Children having sex

[b.k. barunt]

But i've actually seen more happy, head together type kids raised with Jay's morals than not. Also, i've seen a certain amount of humility with him insofar as being able to admit he's wrong, that is highly unlike most of his moral majority ilk, and usually makes for an understanding parent. I think he'd do well with daughters, but maybe a bit too tough on any sons.
Anyhow, i think your judgement there was a little harsh (being a father myself, i tend to empathize).

Now, I'm certainly not saying I think jay would be a "BAD" father nor that I think his children will grow up seriously disturbed. What I am saying is that his absolutism on issues with which most people (including, *gasp* his daughter, I imagine) are absolutely "imperfect", will probably prevent real honesty between him and people like his daughter (I don't know how old she is, I obviously don't know what kind of person she is, but she probably does not or will not fulfill his ideals, though she may present an image TO HIM of doing so).

In families where the parents uphold overly-strict moral codes (perhaps a majority of families, but certainly not the entirety), there necessarily exists shame and secrecy that hamper LOVE AND UNDERSTANDING.

With the positions that jay has expressed, its very easy to see a situation in which his child WOULD NEVER reveal to him the emotions and sentiments that matter so much in her development into an adult woman. Enfranchised into a system of hiding her true self from her father, distance and estrangement develop.

Now I'm not saying that it's just totally great and normal for a girl to talk to her father ad nauseam about her sex life, but his daughter's sex life (or hoped-for lack of) is something that jay seems to care very much about, but he's certainly not putting himself in the position to get any sort of meaningful knowledge about it.

I'm sorry I seem to be picking on you jay. I could just as easily have substituted BK, my own father, or the vast majority of dads into your place.

Wow. You seem to be absolutely sure of your theory. Sure enough to ignore some of the variables. "There necessarily exists shame and secrecy" What if the sons and/or daughters abide by these moral codes?
You state your views with absolutes where there are in fact only theories.

[jay_a2j]

I think that what needs to happen is for these 6th to 8th graders to start having some respect for themselves and the communities that raised them. Nobody told these kids that their destiny in life was to become sluts and prostitutes, so they need to forget about sex for another 6 or 7 years. Giving out pills is not a bad idea; we don't have enough doctors as it is, so why should taxpaying citizens have to pay extra money for abortions to be performed on 10 year old skanks because they were too stupid to avoid having sex in the first place? I totally agree with the pills, but for goodness sakes children, if you're gonna have sex then accept the consequences.

Now while I realize how unnecessary it is to perform a whole bunch of unnecessary abortions, I am still in complete favour of abortions if an unwanted pregnancy is on the way. A fetus is not a child, and not a human being. It's a fetus, and has not developed an identity, so if it doesn't end up living then oh well, it wasn't entitled to a life in the first place. You've gotta do more than lie around in the womb to prove that you have earned the priviledge of living.

Don't jump all over me folks. I'm just telling the truth that many find hard to accept.

Well, to keep it real....its not "truth" but more a load of crap. Nothing irritates me more then people who state opinion AS FACT. I won't get into the abortion issue because it requires individuals to use God given common sense and few on the "a fetus is not a child" posses this.


Carry on with your delusion...

[b.k. barunt]

Btw, you could ask my son (hookshotwillaby), who's getting married in less than a year how your theory applied in his case. He doesn't come on the forums but you could PM him and he'd be glad to answer any questions. He knows i'll break his nose if he gives the wrong answer, as we're very close.


Honibaz

[Iliad]

Xtra why do you turn every thread possilbe into a debate about ron paul? Keep it one thread please

[b.k. barunt]

but for goodness sakes children, if you're gonna have sex then accept the consequences.

That's it! We'll take whump around to different schools, tell the little girls that their babies could turn out to be a whump - Presto! No more need for contraceptives! Hmmm, and then again, we could have a whole lot more budding lesbians on our hands. Oops - back to Flame Wars.


Honibaz

[wrestler1ump]

but for goodness sakes children, if you're gonna have sex then accept the consequences.

That's it! We'll take whump around to different schools, tell the little girls that their babies could turn out to be a whump - Presto! No more need for contraceptives! Hmmm, and then again, we could have a whole lot more budding lesbians on our hands. Oops - back to Flame Wars.


Honibaz

That was a good one . I'm saving it.

[AlgyTaylor]

Really ... adolescents having thoughts of a sexual nature? Well I never! What's the world coming to?

Should these children be on birth control?

Should they? No, not really. But I'd rather them have sex whilst on the pill than end up with a load of mothers in their early teens - ie before they're mentally/sexually mature enough* - which is the other option.

Should the school be forced to tell the parents about it?

No, certainly not. The kid's hardly going to ask for birth control pills if they think their parents are going to get wind of it are they?


* that's not to say that everybody in their early teens aren't mature enough, but for me, as a general rule, they're not.

[sam_levi_11]

giving them birth control is stupid...if there are little gilrs having it at that age they deserve to be stuck with a small ugly crying thing that looks like mr blobby.

i have a little sis who is in grade 5 an to think that if she was in maine that next year shed be getting birth control........ITS FUKING SICK!

WHAT SICK WANKERS THOUGHT THIS UP.

[btownmeggy]

like I said before, most of us here are probably middle or upper class white trash (at least in this discussion)

have you ever been to a slum area or the hood?

how would your advice work there?

with the medium income for a famly in the US at under 30k I dont think your advice means shit to most people.

but I digress, maybe your just talking to Jay.

What are you talking about? Can you please explain how what I said has to do with income so that I can respond accordingly?

[s.xkitten]

I think that what needs to happen is for these 6th to 8th graders to start having some respect for themselves and the communities that raised them. Nobody told these kids that their destiny in life was to become sluts and prostitutes, so they need to forget about sex for another 6 or 7 years. Giving out pills is not a bad idea; we don't have enough doctors as it is, so why should taxpaying citizens have to pay extra money for abortions to be performed on 10 year old skanks because they were too stupid to avoid having sex in the first place? I totally agree with the pills, but for goodness sakes children, if you're gonna have sex then accept the consequences.

Now while I realize how unnecessary it is to perform a whole bunch of unnecessary abortions, I am still in complete favour of abortions if an unwanted pregnancy is on the way. A fetus is not a child, and not a human being. It's a fetus, and has not developed an identity, so if it doesn't end up living then oh well, it wasn't entitled to a life in the first place. You've gotta do more than lie around in the womb to prove that you have earned the priviledge of living.

Don't jump all over me folks. I'm just telling the truth that many find hard to accept.

Okay, ignoring the abortion part, cause I really don't want to get into that,

how many 10 year olds do you know that are capable of getting pregnant? I know that when i was that age, no one in my grade could. This is ignoring the morals, and just going with physically possible, of course. I can't think of that many.


Second of all, once the kids turn 14, their parents can't find out without a court order anyway, so what is so different about them being a little younger? I don't want to think that many children would even be having sex at that age, but why is it so shocking that the schools aren't telling the parents?

[AlgyTaylor]

giving them birth control is stupid...if there are little gilrs having it at that age they deserve to be stuck with a small ugly crying thing that looks like mr blobby.

i have a little sis who is in grade 5 an to think that if she was in maine that next year shed be getting birth control........ITS FUKING SICK!

WHAT SICK WANKERS THOUGHT THIS UP.

I think they probably have to ask the school nurse for them, mate. Doubt very much that they dish them out to everyone at 3.15 each day ...

[sam_levi_11]

giving them birth control is stupid...if there are little gilrs having it at that age they deserve to be stuck with a small ugly crying thing that looks like mr blobby.

i have a little sis who is in grade 5 an to think that if she was in maine that next year shed be getting birth control........ITS FUKING SICK!

WHAT SICK WANKERS THOUGHT THIS UP.

I think they probably have to ask the school nurse for them, mate. Doubt very much that they dish them out to everyone at 3.15 each day ...

lol that woukd be funny...and its intresting what s.x kitten said...that at 10 noone in her grade was capable of being pregnant anyway so why give them out. thing is i have no problem with teenagers doing it...hell i did it at 14, but i tyhink when u do u have to be very careful.

[riggable]

Really ... adolescents having thoughts of a sexual nature? Well I never! What's the world coming to?

Adolescents are like 14 year olds. We're talking about 10 and 11 and 12 year olds.

[s.xkitten]

<note> at ten, i was in fourth grade, and the very beginning of fifth grade. By the time they get to the grades they are talking about, at least some of the girls will be able to. i was simply pointing out the flaw in whump's post

[riggable]

we're you held back? just curious because my sister is turning 12 next year and she is already in 6th grade.

[s.xkitten]

no, i was twelve in the 6th grade. but if you think about it, at ten, that would put me in fourth grade, which is what i just said.

[Guiscard]

To clear up the blatant idiotic reactionary opinions expressed so far (WHAT SICK WANKERS THROUGHT THIS UP is a good example) I've read the article and will now post it, with key points highlighted:

PORTLAND, Maine (AP) -- After an outbreak of pregnancies among middle school girls, education officials in this city have decided to allow a school health center to make birth control pills available to girls as young as 11. [AS IN NOT GIVE OUT THE PILL TO EVERY GIRL. JUST ALLOW THE HEALTH CENTRE TO GIVE THE GIRLS BIRTH CONTROL IF THEY REQUEST IT]

Maine's King Middle School is the first in the state to offer full range of contraceptives to 6th-8th graders.

King Middle School will become the first middle school in Maine to make a full range of contraception available, including birth control pills and patches. Condoms have been available at King's health center since 2000. [SICK LIBERALS... THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS UNDER OUR NOSES!]

Students need parental permission to access the school's health center. But treatment is confidential under state law, which allows the students to decide whether to inform their parents about the services they receive.

There are no national figures on how many middle schools provide such services. Most middle schoolers range in age from 11 to 13.

Portland's three middle schools reported 17 pregnancies during the last four years, not counting miscarriages or terminated pregnancies that weren't reported to the school nurse.[IN THIS CASE, IT SOUNDS LIKE A FAIRLY REASONABLE DECISION, ASSUMIGN IT IS COMBINED WITH PROPER SEX EDUCATION AS WELL]

The Portland School Committee approved the plan, offered by city health officials, on a 7-2 vote Wednesday night. Whether the prescriptions would be offered this school year or next wasn't immediately clear.

King is the only one of the three schools with a health center, primarily because it has more students who get free or reduced-price lunch, said Lisa Belanger, who oversees Portland's student health centers.

Five of the 134 students who visited King's health center during the 2006-07 school year reported having sexual intercourse, said Amanda Rowe, lead nurse in Portland's school health centers.

Committee member Sarah Thompson, also the mother of a King eighth-grader, supported the policy, even though it made her "uncomfortable."

"I know I've done my job as a parent," Thompson said. "(But there) may be a time when she doesn't feel comfortable coming to me ... (and) not all these kids have a strong parental advocate at home."

Chairman John Coyne opposed the change, saying the roles of social agencies and public schools have blurred over the years. "At some point there needs to be a clearing of the gray lines," he said.

The other "no" vote Wednesday night came from Ben Meiklejohn, who said a parental consent form, which allows students to receive any kind of treatment at the school health center, does not clearly define the services being offered.

Some opponents cited religious and health objections.

"We are dealing with children," said Diane Miller, a former school nurse said. "I am just horrified at the suggestion."[JUST TO ADD A BIT OF HYSTERICAL BALANCE TO THE DEBATE]

Another opponent, Peter Doyle, said he felt the proposal violated the rights of parents and puts students at risk of cancer because of hormones in the pill.

Supporters said a small number of students at King are sexually active, but they need better access to birth control.

"This isn't encouraging kids to have sex. This is about the kids who are engaging in sexually activity," Richard Veilleux said.[KIDS HAVE SEX. DEAL WITH IT.WHEN YOU ACCEPT THAT ITS A PERFECTLY SENSIBLE MEASURE]

At King, birth control prescriptions will be given after a student undergoes a physical exam by a physician or nurse practitioner, Belanger said.
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Nationally, about one-fourth of student health centers that serve at least one grade of adolescents 11 and older dispense some form of contraception[SHIT! ITS MORE WIDESPREAD THAN WE THOUGHT], said Mohan, whose Washington-based organization represents more than 1,700 school-based centers nationwide.

A high school in Topeka, Kansas, stopped providing free condoms to students Wednesday after district officials learned of the month-old program. The district has a policy against providing contraceptives.

[btownmeggy]

Wow. You seem to be absolutely sure of your theory.

A few quotes from my post:

"I think", "probably", "I don't know" "may"

What if the sons and/or daughters abide by these moral codes?

We're talking about sex here, so let's talk about sex. Sex is a natural part of human behavior. Unlike stigmatized behavior, like murder, it seems to be unequivocally necessary for the continuation of our species. However, this seemingly good thing is exceedingly stigmatized in our society especially among some people that adhere to certain moral codes, especially as expressed in most mainstream Western religions. One very widespread mainstream Western religion in our society today is Christianity, with a recent push towards evangelical fundamentalism in many parts of the United States. Christianity is frequently intepreted by such people to say things like: masturbation is bad, sex is bad, sexual thoughts are bad.

Among children raised in an atmosphere that constantly reinforces this badness, the children VERY NATURALLY come to associate negative feelings with sexuality. When they approach adolescence sexual thoughts become unavoidable, but it's not easy to shirk off a lifetime of bad-associations that have come from someone so important as your parents. Sexual thoughts become associated with guilt. Masturbation becomes associated with extreme guilt. Foretelling extreme disapproval from their parents, such young people know to never approach their parents for explanations of questions and concerns they might have concerning their growing sexuality. In order to get answers, to explore, other options are utilized and a secret life develops that is entirely seperate from the chaste life they lead in their parents' presence. Even if they adhere to that most important tenet of the non-metaphysical Christian moral code and remain virgins until marriage, the guilt of sex persists. For women it is increasingly problematic, since sexual expression tends to be more stigmatized and more physically difficult.

AND THUS, PERHAPS A MAJORITY OF WOMEN HAVE NEVER HAD AN ORGASM.

And as a moral absolutist I must say, THAT'S JUST WRONG.

C'mon, I am not telling you anything new. The tale I've just related is probably one of the most common expressions of parent-child relations in our society. I'm just saying I don't think it's a good thing.

[riggable]

No, you would be 12 and 13 in 6th grade, whereas my sister is 11 and 12 in 6th grade. Perhaps its just that weird birthday cut off date that some schools use to figure out which grade kids should go in.

[s.xkitten]

no, i would be the same. 9-10 in fourth grade, 10-11 in fifth grade, 11-12 in sixth grade. my birthday is in december, which means i spend most of the year in the older age.

[Koesen]

Haven't read the entire thread, only the first and last pages, so maybe what I say has been said before. With that caveat:

To all those saying getting young girls on the pill is horrible, I say that getting them pregnant is worse.

Face it: the US has the highest teenage pregnancy rate of the industrialized world. It's almost nine times as high as the rate in my country of birth, the Netherlands, four times as high as the EU average and 2.5 times that of Canada.

The US are also, by my standards, an absurdly puritanical country, where girls can either be saints or sluts and where the government does its best to reduce sex education to "just don't do it".

When it comes to morals, the US talk the talk but they don't walk the walk. Is it wrong that 10-14 year olds have sex? I think so, but saying that is not enough to prevent it. When it comes to preaching values, nobody beats the US, but when it comes to the actual prevention, you guys fail on a monumental scale.

In that situation, the only way to turn the tide may just be to simply give all girls the pill. It's not a solution, but it reduces the problem at least a bit.

My apologies to all Americans to whom the above does not apply. I don't generally like to use blanket statements, but with a number of exceptions the American people as a whole should really get their head out of their ass and face reality. Not that they're going to, of course.

[s.xkitten]

Thankfully, my parents don't fall into that same category, and I've been properly educated. The sex education program at my school is one of the most intensive in the country, and we have a <1% pregnancy rate here at school. with 4500 students, and only 2 of them getting pregnant last year, i'd say thats pretty damn good. In a perfect world, no girl would get pregnant until she wanted to, but this isn't a perfect world. Certain religions say that birth control is against their 'book of laws', whatever their name for it is. Other places, there isn't access to the supplies.

Specifically in the US, the problem is the sexual education. Parents fight it, saying that they want their own moral values impressed into the child, but then they don't teach it. Someone needs to pick up the slack here, like my school did.

[2dimes]

I wasn't being sarcastic if you're reffering to the "only some hell's gonna break loose." and I thought I was spamming this one.

for the love of God
Please go to bed, or go to the flame area with your shit.

You could be on to something there, it was bed time.

I really couldn't care less if you read things into my posts. I also don't care if they sound sarcastic.

I've appologised to Jay via PM for winding up meggy and making him look like a mean parent when I should know him better by now.

As for you, it's exciting to know I'm the xtratobasco in your forum life.

[vtmarik]

Haven't read the entire thread, only the first and last pages, so maybe what I say has been said before. With that caveat:

To all those saying getting young girls on the pill is horrible, I say that getting them pregnant is worse.

Face it: the US has the highest teenage pregnancy rate of the industrialized world. It's almost nine times as high as the rate in my country of birth, the Netherlands, four times as high as the EU average and 2.5 times that of Canada.

The US are also, by my standards, an absurdly puritanical country, where girls can either be saints or sluts and where the government does its best to reduce sex education to "just don't do it".

When it comes to morals, the US talk the talk but they don't walk the walk. Is it wrong that 10-14 year olds have sex? I think so, but saying that is not enough to prevent it. When it comes to preaching values, nobody beats the US, but when it comes to the actual prevention, you guys fail on a monumental scale.

In that situation, the only way to turn the tide may just be to simply give all girls the pill. It's not a solution, but it reduces the problem at least a bit.

My apologies to all Americans to whom the above does not apply. I don't generally like to use blanket statements, but with a number of exceptions the American people as a whole should really get their head out of their ass and face reality. Not that they're going to, of course.

Another alarming statistic:

With most teenage pregnancies, the father is a successful male over the age of 30.

[s.xkitten]

Haven't read the entire thread, only the first and last pages, so maybe what I say has been said before. With that caveat:

To all those saying getting young girls on the pill is horrible, I say that getting them pregnant is worse.

Face it: the US has the highest teenage pregnancy rate of the industrialized world. It's almost nine times as high as the rate in my country of birth, the Netherlands, four times as high as the EU average and 2.5 times that of Canada.

The US are also, by my standards, an absurdly puritanical country, where girls can either be saints or sluts and where the government does its best to reduce sex education to "just don't do it".

When it comes to morals, the US talk the talk but they don't walk the walk. Is it wrong that 10-14 year olds have sex? I think so, but saying that is not enough to prevent it. When it comes to preaching values, nobody beats the US, but when it comes to the actual prevention, you guys fail on a monumental scale.

In that situation, the only way to turn the tide may just be to simply give all girls the pill. It's not a solution, but it reduces the problem at least a bit.

My apologies to all Americans to whom the above does not apply. I don't generally like to use blanket statements, but with a number of exceptions the American people as a whole should really get their head out of their ass and face reality. Not that they're going to, of course.

Another alarming statistic:

With most teenage pregnancies, the father is a successful male over the age of 30.

that is wrong...so incredibly wrong...