The Bible is Brutal

[beezer]

I saw this today and thought of my buddies Nate, Jay & Luns.



Oh...and there are no gods hiding in the bushes.

This guy has to be employed by Prometheus Publishers.

[MR. Nate]

Man created God in his own image.

The very simple proof of this is that as ‘man's’ own self perception changes, so does our perception of god.*

This is a good thing because we no longer hold 'an eye for an eye' as integral to divine lore; it was replaced by the marvellous 'turn the other cheek'

But to say that one particular God in a particular epoch was the creator and is by definition omnipotent and omnipresent, you banish all previous believers to- at best eternal death or at worst eternal damnation.

To counter this:

Let's say that the lord is indeed learning and imparting knowledge to his chosen prophets throughout time -
By this reasoning he is neither perfect nor omniscient.

Or that the teachings of the prophets are false and not the word of God-
In which case the bible and the God which you believe in is also false.

Or is he telling us what he knows to be untrue in the hope that we catch up ourselves (freewill)?
Well that seems like the work of a disruptive, mean child taking 3 legs off of a spider to see what happens.

Whichever reason, it seems pretty flawed to me.

I believe in the philosophy of Christ but there is so much nonsense, fear and self-loathing which accompany the dogma of religious teaching.

jiminski you base your hypothesis of man creating God because you see some similarities between them: Emotion, rational thought etc, and you support it with perception changes. Would it change if you discovered that "eye for an eye" was part of the legal code, not for personal conduct, and "turn the other cheek" was not only personal, but revolutionary?
Your argument that God has changed, or that early portions of scripture contradict later portions are faulty. The same God who killed Uzzah for touching the Ark cleared His temple with a whip. The same God who raised Jarius' Daughter gave the children of Israel water, bread and meat in the desert. Your perception of the representations of God changes between the New and Old Testaments, but the God is unchanging, people of all times have been accepted because they came to Him in faith.

Which philosophies of Christ do you agree with?
Denying yourself so completly that every day you "crucify" what you want to following Him?
Loving God so much that by comparison, you hate your mother?

Mr Nate , God is all and yes free wiil means that we have the choice to sin ,but as you say god is all ,just as we define justice,love ,mercy to him by definition greed, hate, sadism are all his to for he is all

I can not find it in my hart to love a God That say i have the gift of love for another woman which he gave me in my creation .
I am supposed to reject the very nature of my being just for salvation.

As to satan Any being would want freedom and equality no matter how kind and just his creator ,what kind of God gives free will to one of his children but not the other?

I am glad you have faith in God I wish i could say the same

I didn't say "God is all" I said "God is perfect." God has no evil in Him, indeed, to have any evil would make Him incomplete. Evil is not an equal to Good, evil is a perversion of good, a twisted & incomplete substitute. You say you won't deny your nature to follow God, but that is the only thing God wants from any of us. We are all by nature, sinners. We are all by nature, fallen. God wants all of us to step away from the sin that is so much a part of us. It is the only thing He requires of all of us.


What is freedom? is freedom the unrestricted ability to do what you want? If so, than serial killers exercise more freedom than any of us. Freedom is the ability to actually choose what is good, rejecting God is a rejection of freedom. Equality? Satan didn't want equality, he was the 2nd most glorious being in the universe, but instead of be grateful that God had given him that, through no doing of his own, he coveted what God had. And God gives all his creature free will. Satan cannot repent because he chose to rebel in full knowledge of the glory and power of God. We are given grace because we only see bits and pieces of God's majesty.

[vtmarik]

You all make the assumption that our behavior has some kind of impact on a being as truly awesome as God.

A being that human kind would worship as a God is so far removed from us that any veneration we give to them wouldn't affect their attitude toward us at all.

Humans are insignificant little specks on the fabric of the cosmos. The only people who care what we do in the long run is us.



Lovecraft had it right.

[jiminski]

jiminski you base your hypothesis of man creating God because you see some similarities between them: Emotion, rational thought etc, and you support it with perception changes. Would it change if you discovered that "eye for an eye" was part of the legal code, not for personal conduct, and "turn the other cheek" was not only personal, but revolutionary?
Your argument that God has changed, or that early portions of scripture contradict later portions are faulty. The same God who killed Uzzah for touching the Ark cleared His temple with a whip. The same God who raised Jarius' Daughter gave the children of Israel water, bread and meat in the desert. Your perception of the representations of God changes between the New and Old Testaments, but the God is unchanging, people of all times have been accepted because they came to Him in faith.

Which philosophies of Christ do you agree with?
Denying yourself so completly that every day you "crucify" what you want to following Him?
Loving God so much that by comparison, you hate your mother?
.

hmm surely that's all just cobblers.
I am fully aware of the original context of 'an eye for an eye' (exodus i think) I used it to juxtapose the evolution of God from Judaism to Christianity.

The fact is that Christ abhorred violence even in the face of his own destruction. his castigation of St Peter when he cut off the Roman soldiers ear is proof of this (if we take the new Testament on face value).

The old God preached retribution, and fear, war and submission to his will! The new God, in his physical form, righted these contradictions to divinity and in doing so brought them up to date with contemporary philosophy.

So what do i respect in Christs philosophies..?

those things that the corrupt evangelists avoid.
Those things which are diametrically apposed to those who preach 'the word of god' but in doing so hark back to antiquities of primitive reasoning!


What do respect above all else in his philosophy?

love.

[comic boy]

Mr Nate you are very eloquent but you keep repeating phrases that infer that you know what God meant, in that way you can rebuff anything. If that comforts you then well and good but I hardly see it as a very good way of proving anything other than the resilience of sheer blind faith.

[MR. Nate]

If you feel Christ abhorred violence, care to discuss Matt 10:34, Luke 22:36 and John 2:14-16? It wasn't that Christ abhorred violence, it was that He didn't want His disciples to defend him when crucifixion was the reason he came. (Psalm 22? Anyone?)

And the God of the Old Testament was the one that wrote: "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18 ) which you place so much importance on.

[jiminski]

The old geezer smited, lent armies his power to kill.
Instructed a father to kill his son as a nice little cruel hearted test ...
turned people into salt.... just for starters...

Christ abhorred violence! if you are referring to his turning of tables in anger at greed within religious places... then you are very much clutching at straws.

[jiminski]

And the God of the Old Testament was the one that wrote: "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18 ) which you place so much importance on.

Yes i am not saying that all old testament is completely flawed but it's contradictory signals allow people to hold on to their right to war .. their right to prejudice against Gays and women and just about anyone who is not a fire and brimstone fundamentalist in the old fashioned style.

[MR. Nate]

Mr Nate you are very eloquent but you keep repeating phrases that infer that you know what God meant, in that way you can rebuff anything. If that comforts you then well and good but I hardly see it as a very good way of proving anything other than the resilience of sheer blind faith.

You're questioning my hermeneutics. That's fine. Know that I am not postmodern by most definitions. I believe that by studying the author, their time period, audiance and style, we can come reasonably close to knowing the authors intent. In addition, I FIRMLY believe that if God is going take the time to give His words to men to right down, He is going to make it understandable to the reader, or at least accesable.

Christ abhorred violence! if you are referring to his turning of tables in anger at greed within religious places... then you are very much clutching at straws.

Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, and a man's enemies will be the members of his household.

[2dimes]

Yes i am not saying that all old testament is flawed but it's contradictory signals allow people to hold on to their right to war .. their right to prejudice against Gays and women and just about anyone who is not a fire and brimstone fundamentalist in the old fashioned style.

Sure but if that's what a person is into they'll find justification where ever they want.

You don't need a bible to hate people it just used to be an easy source for making it acceptable 30 years ago and further, when it meant something to the general population of Western style society.

Yeah but it's kind of like eating raw pork and gambling that there's no such thing as worms.

But we KNOW that eating raw pork is a bad bet and therefore it is an easy decision not to gamble and just walk away.

How do you know that, just because you read it in a book somewhere or someone told you?
Worms are just a fairy tale man, don't believe the hype!

[joecoolfrog]

The thing is I could just as easily argue that God is to blame because he created man imperfectly, same as I would blame the manufacturer if my car kept breaking down.

Mr Nate If god is ominpotent and all powerful then all evil can be placed at his feet as the creator of all things.

The fruit of knowledge was placed in the garden and we ate of it and fell,
but he new we would he,s ominpotent .

So why damntion for the sins he made and gave to us in the frist place.

As to satan's desire to usurp god what slave would not wish to be free of his master and god new he would ,remember he;s ominpotent.

So if all his creations are imperfect ,whats going to make paradise any better than all his other mistakes ?

As i've said before not a reader of the bible ,i just live in the world of his devising and if we are the best he can make ,i think we need a new god

I've answered this so often in different threads that I'm pretty sure MeDeFe or vt could tell you what I'm going to say even before I post.

It comes back to free will. God did not want to make robots, He made creatures who had the free will to love Him or reject Him. He did this knowing that some people would choose to reject Him. But He loved us all enough to create us and allow us to make that choice for ourselves.
When we choose to reject Him (and although I believe in original sin, I also firmly believe that we all DO reject Him personally) we chose sin and it's consequences over what God wants for us: the best. So don't accuse God of "giving" us sin. We chose it, both racially and personally, we decided to take sin over what God had for us. We have the opportunity to change that choice up until the moment we die. That is what damnation is for: a lifetime of rejecting the good God has for you in favor of fulfilling your personal desires.

And I might have some sympathy for Satan if God was less than perfect. If He were vindictive, corrupt or cruel, than Satan may have a case. However, God is perfect - we define justice, love, mercy and grace by His charechter. What is the proper motive for revolting against the rule of a perfect being? His authority? He weilds it perfectly. His justice? It is ALWAYS right. His power? He uses it for OUR benefit.

Why did you edit my quote and not respond to the point about gambling ?

[comic boy]

Mr Nate you are very eloquent but you keep repeating phrases that infer that you know what God meant, in that way you can rebuff anything. If that comforts you then well and good but I hardly see it as a very good way of proving anything other than the resilience of sheer blind faith.

You're questioning my hermeneutics. That's fine. Know that I am not postmodern by most definitions. I believe that by studying the author, their time period, audiance and style, we can come reasonably close to knowing the authors intent. In addition, I FIRMLY believe that if God is going take the time to give His words to men to right down, He is going to make it understandable to the reader, or at least accesable.

Christ abhorred violence! if you are referring to his turning of tables in anger at greed within religious places... then you are very much clutching at straws.

Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, and a man's enemies will be the members of his household.

That waffle basicly means that you are guessing,reckon the Frog has a good point about you gambling

[jiminski]

Christ abhorred violence! if you are referring to his turning of tables in anger at greed within religious places... then you are very much clutching at straws.

Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, and a man's enemies will be the members of his household.

hehe 1000 pages of metaphor, parables and hidden meaning and you take this passage literally.

I can't believe that you are saying now that Christ was a war-monger.

Good grief! you are an old testament zealot who has made a conscious effort to tailor Christs learnings and hold on to the old testament.

[satanspaladin]

i dont think i edited your quote ? but if i did you have my sincerre apologies

[vtmarik]

No response to my postulate that a being such as God would not need followers, based on the fact that He is so much more than we could ever even comprehend, let alone be.

Quite simply, why does God need us to worship him? With a flick of a wrist He created us and He could destroy us just as easily. What do we matter to a being such as Him, and furthermore what do our opinions matter to a being above the human concepts of Good and Evil?

[satanspaladin]

Mr Nate

I find it admirably that you can hold to your faith in this world full of cynics.

For my self i can find no faith or comfort from this god of contradictions

[satanspaladin]

No response to my postulate that a being such as God would not need followers, based on the fact that He is so much more than we could ever even comprehend, let alone be.

Quite simply, why does God need us to worship him? With a flick of a wrist He created us and He could destroy us just as easily. What do we matter to a being such as Him, and furthermore what do our opinions matter to a being above the human concepts of Good and Evil?

Maybe he just likes an audience

[2dimes]

No response to my postulate that a being such as God would not need followers, based on the fact that He is so much more than we could ever even comprehend, let alone be.

Quite simply, why does God need us to worship him? With a flick of a wrist He created us and He could destroy us just as easily. What do we matter to a being such as Him, and furthermore what do our opinions matter to a being above the human concepts of Good and Evil?

He doesn't and that's key to the existance of hell for a person that didn't seem all that bad who's only big crime was to reject God.

It's like any parent though, even though you don't [i]need[i] your child to love you, there's nothing better.

[vtmarik]

No response to my postulate that a being such as God would not need followers, based on the fact that He is so much more than we could ever even comprehend, let alone be.

Quite simply, why does God need us to worship him? With a flick of a wrist He created us and He could destroy us just as easily. What do we matter to a being such as Him, and furthermore what do our opinions matter to a being above the human concepts of Good and Evil?

He doesn't and that's key to the existance of hell for a person that didn't seem all that bad who's only big crime was to reject God.

It's like any parent though, even though you don't need your child to love you, there's nothing better.

Yes, but this isn't a parent. He didn't give birth to us. He made us from dust. At best, he's a watchmaker, only the watches he made have no sign or brand of who made them.

What could He possibly get from us that He can't get from anywhere else?

[2dimes]

No response to my postulate that a being such as God would not need followers, based on the fact that He is so much more than we could ever even comprehend, let alone be.

Quite simply, why does God need us to worship him? With a flick of a wrist He created us and He could destroy us just as easily. What do we matter to a being such as Him, and furthermore what do our opinions matter to a being above the human concepts of Good and Evil?

He doesn't and that's key to the existance of hell for a person that didn't seem all that bad who's only big crime was to reject God.

It's like any parent though, even though you don't need your child to love you, there's nothing better.

Yes, but this isn't a parent. He didn't give birth to us. He made us from dust. At best, he's a watchmaker, only the watches he made have no sign or brand of who made them.

What could He possibly get from us that He can't get from anywhere else?

I didn't give birth to my kids either. I didn't even have to stick around after fertilization.

If you have not had your kid bring home the "I'm thankfull for... 'my dad' " with a crayon drawing of you, you're not going to get it.

So it must be something I'm making up that doesn't really exist right?

[vtmarik]

I think the core of my message is being lost here, let me start over.

The love you have for your son is as real as anything in the world, but you cannot anthropomorphize the Cosmos/God in the same way.

A child looking at you with big eyes, handing you a drawing, and saying "I love you Dad" is an amazing thing. I'm not familiar with it, since I don't have any kids yet (and hopefully not for a few years, I'm nowhere near ready for it).

However, we're talking about a being of mind-mangling complexity. The creator of an entire universe in which we are an insignificant crowd on an invisible dot.

Why would a being of such size and terrifying complexity care about creatures as insignificant as we are?

Maybe it's part of my being the philosophical equivalent of a rag and bone man, but I think the principles of cosmicism are sound ones. We're such tiny, tiny beings on a miniscule planet who mean nothing to the greater design. Why all the psychodrama about worshipping a being who, most likely, doesn't give a damn?

[2dimes]

Well the thing you're missing here is you're not a watch.

You're the special unique you.

There's no one that's the same as you and he considers you one of his special children.

If you do breed and you have more than one offspring you'll see that you can't pick one over the other even if one is bad and one is good.

They are special in their own ways. You may not like them both the same amount but you will love them both the same amount.

[vtmarik]

Well the thing you're missing here is you're not a watch.

You're the special unique you.

There's no one that's the same as you and he considers you one of his special children.

If you do breed and you have more than one offspring you'll see that you can't pick one over the other even if one is bad and one is good.

They are special in their own ways. You may not like them both the same amount but you will love them both the same amount.

I'm one of His several billion some-odd special children? (trying to account for all life since the beginning of time)

Damn, give the poor Guy an icepack.

I guess we're just two different people with two different ideas about God.

That's what I get for being a non-traditional Christian.

[2dimes]

I hear he's "a being of mind-mangling complexity. The creator of an entire universe in which we are an insignificant crowd on an invisible dot. "

I'm thinking he can keep track of all of us weenies. He numbered every hair on your head.

Maybe that's what hell is for, thin the heard make it easier to manage.

[vtmarik]

I hear he's "a being of mind-mangling complexity. The creator of an entire universe in which we are an insignificant crowd on an invisible dot. "

I'm thinking he can keep track of all of us weenies. He numbered every hair on your head.

Maybe that's what hell is for, thin the heard make it easier to manage.

If we are all His special children though, doesn't hell seem like a bit of an insane punishment?

Kinda like punishing a kid for being naughty by cutting off one of their hands with an axe.