French presidential election (official thread)

[Donelladan]

http://www.lemonde.fr/data/france/presidentielle-2017/

you'll have a map of the result per region of the french election. ( scroll down to see it )
To simplify, West vote for Macron, east vote for Lepen.

Normandy and Brittany, both voted mainly for Macron.

[BoganGod]

http://www.lemonde.fr/data/france/presidentielle-2017/

you'll have a map of the result per region of the french election. ( scroll down to see it )
To simplify, West vote for Macron, east vote for Lepen.

Normandy and Brittany, both voted mainly for Macron.

Merci, one of my best friends Jean Marc(a norman pastry chef married to an english HR manager) has just earned another topic for me to clown him on. As well as calling him english and saying he likes bread n butter pudding, I now have more things to tease him about. Imagine Obilex with less hair, and no small dog.

[waauw]

Now wanna talk about the real world ? Maybe you should start wonder why people are voting massively for the far-right rather than attacking realist alternative project to the current system. Then maybe your candidate would finally be able to reduce Lepen's vote rather than increasing it.

Le Pen's ideas are simple and sensational. Complexity rarely has any marketing value. Where most candidates would argue elaborate schemes involving immigration, the far right simply argues 'foreigners out'. Easy words, controversial words, strong impact. People by nature simply don't enjoy the long classical argumentations you see from ordinary politicians. Especially uneducated folk, Le Pen's voters, love it. Ask anyone anywhere and they'll be able to tell you what Le Pen stands for, a lot of them might not be able to give you many details but that actually matters very little in campaign.

It's one of the elements that marketeers argue lost Hillary her elections. She focused too much on attacking Trump, that she forgot to build up her own message. There were more people who knew Trump's slogan than there were people who knew Hillary's.

So yeah, I guess I agree with you. Regardless of content she's got a great campaign manager. But she'll lose anyway.

[Donelladan]

Well, you are forgetting to wonder why do they care about foreigners wauuw. I genuily don't think we don't have that many racist people in France, so it has to have other causes.

[betiko]

Well, you are forgetting to wonder why do they care about foreigners wauuw. I genuily don't think we don't have that many racist people in France, so it has to have other causes.

yeah; it's called stupidity and the search for scape goats, and flash news, it's now happening all over the democratic world.
The world is becoming too complex for us simple voters; and politics now is just about making people believe that there are simple solutions to everything. Ask that asshat Trump... "nobody knew the health care policies were so difficult" and so on. No fucking way??? politicians have their hands tied and have very little margin to operate in a globalized economy? who would ve thought so, right? What happened in Greece with Tsypras again? oh yeah, he showed his middle finger to the EU, and then Greece was able to do all it wanted... or not?

You need to play the game with the cards you've been dealt with, you can't ask to reshuffle because the other players at the table are not going to let you play with them if you don't play by the rules. And you need to judge the player/politician acording to the cards he had in hand to start with.

[patches70]

Everyone please stand for the National Anthem of France. Or, if you're betiko, sit on your ass in protest.

[betiko]

Thank you for your interesting contribution patches. Looks like you know france really well, congrats on your great culture!

[Donelladan]

yeah; it's called stupidity and the search for scape goats, and flash news, it's now happening all over the democratic world.
The world is becoming too complex for us simple voters; and politics now is just about making people believe that there are simple solutions to everything. Ask that asshat Trump... "nobody knew the health care policies were so difficult" and so on. No fucking way??? politicians have their hands tied and have very little margin to operate in a globalized economy? who would ve thought so, right? What happened in Greece with Tsypras again? oh yeah, he showed his middle finger to the EU, and then Greece was able to do all it wanted... or not?

Why voting at all if politician have their hands tied ?
Also, they are not stupid. They do see that people tell them time are tough, no money for you, but there is money everywhere. Yeah I know, our hands are tied, there is only ONE POSSIBLE WAY. Sure !

One day heads will fall again, and you'll see there was another way.

[betiko]

yeah; it's called stupidity and the search for scape goats, and flash news, it's now happening all over the democratic world.
The world is becoming too complex for us simple voters; and politics now is just about making people believe that there are simple solutions to everything. Ask that asshat Trump... "nobody knew the health care policies were so difficult" and so on. No fucking way??? politicians have their hands tied and have very little margin to operate in a globalized economy? who would ve thought so, right? What happened in Greece with Tsypras again? oh yeah, he showed his middle finger to the EU, and then Greece was able to do all it wanted... or not?

Why voting at all if politician have their hands tied ?
Also, they are not stupid. They do see that people tell them time are tough, no money for you, but there is money everywhere. Yeah I know, our hands are tied, there is only ONE POSSIBLE WAY. Sure !

One day heads will fall again, and you'll see there was another way.

Because in spite of having their hands tied for a big part of things they can still make some small adjustments. A state is like a well oiled machine extremely complicated to configurate and that needs constant readjustments.

If people want more money, they can change jobs or work some more. If you don't act as a victim and you start reinventing yourself instead of expecting to have a government that will guarantee 800€ for every frenchman for doing nothing, or tax the rich at 100% over a certain level of income..

And yes, a high % of voters are complete idiots in democratic countries. They don't want to hear "it's complicated", they'd rather hear "it's so easy to do, you need to put some balls on that table". This is what is happening more and more, and it's pretty disapointing.

[nietzsche]

nuh huh..

you just need to build a very, very big wall

and bring back the manufacture jobs

[TA1LGUNN3R]

nuh huh..

you just need to build a very, very big wall

and bring back the manufacture jobs

Now you're talking.

[Donelladan]

If people want more money, they can change jobs or work some more. If you don't act as a victim and you start reinventing yourself instead of expecting to have a government that will guarantee 800€ for every frenchman for doing nothing, or tax the rich at 100% over a certain level of income..

It's lovely to see how you think left mind works. No one said the problem is simple. Mélenchon wasn't saying it was. On the other hand it seems to me Macron is saying it is is simple,just let everyone do whatever they want and the world will be better ( it's as much a caricature as your description of Hamon/Melenchon program is).

Every person working should have access to decent living conditions. People that have a job and are barely feed their family or afford health care isn't normal or acceptable.
The problem isn't about taxing the rich 100% or getting 800€ without working.

The problem is about the repartition of the wealth which is produced. You said if people want money they can change jobs or work some more.
Your first part is so wrong it's just unbelievable. We do need basic workers. No everyone can be a CEO. That's just not possible. But people making the basic work also deserve to have decent living, and more than that, they deserve their fair share of the produced wealth. Got it ?
Now when every statistic is telling you that the difference between richer and poorer is increasing, it means the repartition isn't good/working.
If the life of the people at the bottom of the scale is becoming more difficult, and at the same time the life of the one at the top is becoming easier, then there is a problem. And you may not believe it, but that's the case. And that is why people at the bottom vote for the far-right, because they want their situation to change. Not because they are stupid. Though I agree with you the choice they are making isn't the correct one, imho.

[patches70]

Har, you see what you got here. If you vote for LePen you are an idiot and a racist. If you vote for Macron you are a misogynist and communist. Macron is a clone of Hilary Clinton who pretends to be an anti-establishment candidate. LePen is an actual anti-establishment candidate who seems to actually want to put France first. Oh the horror, a politician who wants to see to the needs of her nation first.

One thing we know for sure is that the French voters are sick and tired of the establishment as the traditional candidates got smashed in the first round.

It seems to me that you are stuck with two terrible choices and it's moronic to decry which terrible choice someone decides on as being the stupid choice. I'm pretty sure a case can be made either way, that if you vote for Macron you are an idiot and if you vote for LePen you are an idiot.

I also find it amusing how Betiko simply dismisses the idea of people being concerned about open door immigration as if it shouldn't be an issue or a concern to people. Of course it should be a concern, there are legitimate reasons to be wary of such policies that doesn't involve racism at all. It's much closer to common sense and preservation of one's way of life and culture. Two things worth preserving for any peoples.
People just take elections too seriously. Every election now is "the most important election ever!" Pfftt. It doesn't matter. The world will go on like it always has. Badly.
The wisest course is the course where people look out for themselves and theirs and not have to rely on the politicians to do that for them. Disappointment is the only thing that follows relying on politicians.
To quote the great Master Chief, no matter who gets elected, "It's going to be all right".
No matter who is elected just keep on keeping on and doing what is best for yourself and your family and the things outside of your control will be what it will just as it would be no matter what. If you are hoping the politicians are going to look out for you and your family you'll be sorely mistaken in any case.

[Dukasaur]

People just take elections too seriously. Every election now is "the most important election ever!" Pfftt. It doesn't matter. The world will go on like it always has. Badly.

+1

No matter who is elected just keep on keeping on and doing what is best for yourself and your family and the things outside of your control will be what it will just as it would be no matter what. If you are hoping the politicians are going to look out for you and your family you'll be sorely mistaken in any case.

+1 more!

[waauw]

Har, you see what you got here. If you vote for LePen you are an idiot and a racist. If you vote for Macron you are a misogynist and communist. Macron is a clone of Hilary Clinton who pretends to be an anti-establishment candidate. LePen is an actual anti-establishment candidate who seems to actually want to put France first. Oh the horror, a politician who wants to see to the needs of her nation first.

One thing we know for sure is that the French voters are sick and tired of the establishment as the traditional candidates got smashed in the first round.

It seems to me that you are stuck with two terrible choices and it's moronic to decry which terrible choice someone decides on as being the stupid choice. I'm pretty sure a case can be made either way, that if you vote for Macron you are an idiot and if you vote for LePen you are an idiot.

I also find it amusing how Betiko simply dismisses the idea of people being concerned about open door immigration as if it shouldn't be an issue or a concern to people. Of course it should be a concern, there are legitimate reasons to be wary of such policies that doesn't involve racism at all. It's much closer to common sense and preservation of one's way of life and culture. Two things worth preserving for any peoples.
People just take elections too seriously. Every election now is "the most important election ever!" Pfftt. It doesn't matter. The world will go on like it always has. Badly.
The wisest course is the course where people look out for themselves and theirs and not have to rely on the politicians to do that for them. Disappointment is the only thing that follows relying on politicians.
To quote the great Master Chief, no matter who gets elected, "It's going to be all right".
No matter who is elected just keep on keeping on and doing what is best for yourself and your family and the things outside of your control will be what it will just as it would be no matter what. If you are hoping the politicians are going to look out for you and your family you'll be sorely mistaken in any case.

You write pretty lengthy text for someone who claiming it doesn't matter.

[waauw]

Well, you are forgetting to wonder why do they care about foreigners wauuw. I genuily don't think we don't have that many racist people in France, so it has to have other causes.

It's very simple really. People generate stories in their minds based on even the tiniest pieces of information. When a person notices a bright green package in a supermarket, the might start assuming the product is ecologically responsible even when that is not the case. Similarly when faced with terrorism people simply connected a line to immigration, partially due to a succesfull and opportunistic far right. The REAL problem is of course far more complex; to do with unemployment, education, poverty, ... .

As Betiko already stated, people are simply looking for scapegoats for problems they don't WANT to spend time understanding.

[Donelladan]

. If you vote for Macron you are a misogynist and communist

No, that's wrong, maybe you missunderstood with Mélenchon, but even then no one called him a misogynist

@wauuw.
Terrorism has nothing to do with the rise of the extrem right in France.
Sure we had terrorist attack, but Lepen was already at 18% in 2012, and we didn't have the terrorist attack. Now she is at 21%. Sure few people are afraid of terrorist, but that doesn't explain the far-right vote in France.

[patches70]

. If you vote for Macron you are a misogynist and communist

No, that's wrong, maybe you missunderstood with Mélenchon, but even then no one called him a misogynist

I'm just demonstrating how easy it is to go ahead and toss a label out on voters. Betiko labels half of France as racist idiots and appeals to communists to get out and vote for a Rothschild banker, which is hilarious. LePen being a woman it's easy enough to to blame woman hating for not voting for her. It was good enough for Hitlary after all.

Truth has nothing to do with rhetoric, or politics.

[betiko]

. If you vote for Macron you are a misogynist and communist

No, that's wrong, maybe you missunderstood with Mélenchon, but even then no one called him a misogynist

I'm just demonstrating how easy it is to go ahead and toss a label out on voters. Betiko labels half of France as racist idiots and appeals to communists to get out and vote for a Rothschild banker, which is hilarious. LePen being a woman it's easy enough to to blame woman hating for not voting for her. It was good enough for Hitlary after all.

Truth has nothing to do with rhetoric, or politics.

Patches, you are just trying to make a copy paste between Macron/LePen and Hilary/ Trump.

The fact is that neither of them are comparable. Emmanuel = Hilary and Marine=Donald is just a simplistic way of seeing things.
Also, what you are describing about my views or these candidate's views about immigration is totally false.
My view is that there has to be some restrictions of some sort and that we should welcome as much immigrants as we can. Leftist want to legalize all illegal aliens in the country basically and are against any sort of expulsions and restrictions.
People like LePen are just against anything unfrench in any immigrants. Like her party would organize some hot lunch in winter for poor people with pork in all the food so that muslims and jews cannot eat it. Her father is a well known antisemite, a negationist of the shoah and has said some pretty horrible things about the arabs and the jews publicly for decades. Her party is full of previous neonazi skinheads, but she does everything to make it all look "normal". You really don't know what you are talking about regarding the Front National and the LePen family.
My 8 great grand parents were all french, didn't really check on the great great grand parents level, but I'm pretty much as french as you can be (even if I'm married to a spanish girl and my daughter, half spanish was born here in spain..) Anyways.. I was just saying this because france is not a country of one ethnicity. France is a country that has had during its history multiple waves of immigration. It as been an empire on all continents such as Great Britain, and like Great Britain this has brought a lot of immigration from previous colonies. We have had a lof of immigration from european countries (mostly Italy, Spain, Portugal and Poland) and our country is deeply diverse in terms of cultures (not to mention the strong cultures you can find from one region to another).
LePen's views regarding France is just ridiculous because french are ever changing chameleons. Non catholic religions ARE/WERE part of our society way before the americas were even discovered. We are not Gauls... we are not Francs, we are not Romans... we are just a mix of so many things. Of course, immigrants cannot just come and force you to change your culture, they are the ones that need to adapt to your culture, but also adding a bit of their own culture to france.

[betiko]

If people want more money, they can change jobs or work some more. If you don't act as a victim and you start reinventing yourself instead of expecting to have a government that will guarantee 800€ for every frenchman for doing nothing, or tax the rich at 100% over a certain level of income..

It's lovely to see how you think left mind works. No one said the problem is simple. Mélenchon wasn't saying it was. On the other hand it seems to me Macron is saying it is is simple,just let everyone do whatever they want and the world will be better ( it's as much a caricature as your description of Hamon/Melenchon program is).

Every person working should have access to decent living conditions. People that have a job and are barely feed their family or afford health care isn't normal or acceptable.
The problem isn't about taxing the rich 100% or getting 800€ without working.

The problem is about the repartition of the wealth which is produced. You said if people want money they can change jobs or work some more.
Your first part is so wrong it's just unbelievable. We do need basic workers. No everyone can be a CEO. That's just not possible. But people making the basic work also deserve to have decent living, and more than that, they deserve their fair share of the produced wealth. Got it ?
Now when every statistic is telling you that the difference between richer and poorer is increasing, it means the repartition isn't good/working.
If the life of the people at the bottom of the scale is becoming more difficult, and at the same time the life of the one at the top is becoming easier, then there is a problem. And you may not believe it, but that's the case. And that is why people at the bottom vote for the far-right, because they want their situation to change. Not because they are stupid. Though I agree with you the choice they are making isn't the correct one, imho.

Don, France's future IS NOT blue colar workers. If there are delocalisations in east europe/asia; it's just because we are not competitive, and cannot compete in these type of industries anymore that are so 19th century. People need to accept that they need to let go on these, and focus on service and new technologies industries among others.
Not everyone can be CEOs? because you said so. Obviously if everything is done to make entrepreneurship difficult, well people don't start their own business. A small business owner is not a fucking milionaire, and he deserves much more consideration that a grumpy narrow minded blue colar only thinking to go on strike to see what's the next thing he can get thanks to his trade union.
A person that took all the risks deserves obviously much more payout that a basic employee. Maybe the repartition isn't all that fair? Well big fucking news: we're in a global economy self regulating itself. Unless you want to become the next cuba, north korean or venezuela; your country is not an autarcy without interactions with others.
You can regulate, but just till a certain level. ad flash new: you cannot make everybody happy. Budgets are limited, even if always exceeded and money doesn't grow from trees. You obviously need to give people all sort of wellfair, but you have to do it wisely. You need to make rich people contribute in much larger scale, but not in a way that makes france a country you want to flee from.

[waauw]

If people want more money, they can change jobs or work some more. If you don't act as a victim and you start reinventing yourself instead of expecting to have a government that will guarantee 800€ for every frenchman for doing nothing, or tax the rich at 100% over a certain level of income..

It's lovely to see how you think left mind works. No one said the problem is simple. Mélenchon wasn't saying it was. On the other hand it seems to me Macron is saying it is is simple,just let everyone do whatever they want and the world will be better ( it's as much a caricature as your description of Hamon/Melenchon program is).

Every person working should have access to decent living conditions. People that have a job and are barely feed their family or afford health care isn't normal or acceptable.
The problem isn't about taxing the rich 100% or getting 800€ without working.

The problem is about the repartition of the wealth which is produced. You said if people want money they can change jobs or work some more.
Your first part is so wrong it's just unbelievable. We do need basic workers. No everyone can be a CEO. That's just not possible. But people making the basic work also deserve to have decent living, and more than that, they deserve their fair share of the produced wealth. Got it ?
Now when every statistic is telling you that the difference between richer and poorer is increasing, it means the repartition isn't good/working.
If the life of the people at the bottom of the scale is becoming more difficult, and at the same time the life of the one at the top is becoming easier, then there is a problem. And you may not believe it, but that's the case. And that is why people at the bottom vote for the far-right, because they want their situation to change. Not because they are stupid. Though I agree with you the choice they are making isn't the correct one, imho.

Don, France's future IS NOT blue colar workers. If there are delocalisations in east europe/asia; it's just because we are not competitive, and cannot compete in these type of industries anymore that are so 19th century. People need to accept that they need to let go on these, and focus on service and new technologies industries among others.
Not everyone can be CEOs? because you said so. Obviously if everything is done to make entrepreneurship difficult, well people don't start their own business. A small business owner is not a fucking milionaire, and he deserves much more consideration that a grumpy narrow minded blue colar only thinking to go on strike to see what's the next thing he can get thanks to his trade union.
A person that took all the risks deserves obviously much more payout that a basic employee. Maybe the repartition isn't all that fair? Well big fucking news: we're in a global economy self regulating itself. Unless you want to become the next cuba, north korean or venezuela; your country is not an autarcy without interactions with others.
You can regulate, but just till a certain level. ad flash new: you cannot make everybody happy. Budgets are limited, even if always exceeded and money doesn't grow from trees. You obviously need to give people all sort of wellfair, but you have to do it wisely. You need to make rich people contribute in much larger scale, but not in a way that makes france a country you want to flee from.

To be honest, looking at the S&P for benchmark, you could argue a bit both ways. Yes, old 19th century and early 20th century industries are almost useless to western economies. High wages after all come from high profit margin sectors. But some of the services sectors like retail and health care are inextricable. There the government might be able to raise wages like donelladan probably wants. Just remember however that these bills will eventually be passed on to consumers if wages were hiked. Some high tech industries, especially electronics, like the famous Apple example in the USA, hold both high margins and far eastern outsourcing. These are basically the ONLY sectors on which you can apply some protectionism and still be succesfull. The complexity there however is that you have to look at these products almost component by component.

[betiko]

Last night there was the big debate between macron and lepen. Oh boy what a spanking! Lepen just proved how unprepared she is and how shallow her program is. Other than attacking her opponent on unrelated stuff.. she's pretty much useless.
Seriously, if macron doesn t win 65-35 or so, something is wrong.

[waauw]

Last night there was the big debate between macron and lepen. Oh boy what a spanking! Lepen just proved how unprepared she is and how shallow her program is. Other than attacking her opponent on unrelated stuff.. she's pretty much useless.
Seriously, if macron doesn t win 65-35 or so, something is wrong.

Saw excerpts of it. I thought Le Pen was supposed to be smarter than Trump. Well she certainly didn't show it. Nervous Le Pen vs pissed off Macron.

[betiko]

Suck it filthy americans and russians. The EU is strong and standing with leaders that aren t there to fulfill their own agenda!

[waauw]

Congratulations to the intelligent people of France!!