Trump the cry-baby

[jgordon1111]

I think that women are irresponsible. Half of the pregnancies are on accident. Complete irresponsibility. A man should be able to drop a load without a woman getting pregnant.

Vasectomy or pills for men are an option FYI, other than that take responsibility for your actions or the consequences of your actions, everyone keeps overlooking this small FACT it takes a man AND a woman to make a baby. So if punishment is laid out place it EQUALLY on all parties involved.

[warmonger1981]

If a man and woman makes a baby. That's 50/50. Then why do women get to have abortions without consulting the other half. Seems one sided. If a women gets to make the decision without consulting the other half I lay blame 100% on the women to make sure she doesn't have an unwanted pregnancy.

That's like you and I both make a sandwich but I get to eat it or throw it away.

[mrswdk]

If a man and woman makes a baby. That's 50/50. Then why do women get to have abortions without consulting the other half. Seems one sided. If a women gets to make the decision without consulting the other half I lay blame 100% on the women to make sure she doesn't have an unwanted pregnancy.

That's like you and I both make a sandwich but I get to eat it or throw it away.

I believe that sandwich analogy is what won Bill Bernstein's successful lawsuit against a previous sexual partner of his who threw away their used condom without his consent.

[Symmetry]

I think that women are irresponsible. Half of the pregnancies are on accident. Complete irresponsibility. A man should be able to drop a load without a woman getting pregnant.

Vasectomy or pills for men are an option FYI, other than that take responsibility for your actions or the consequences of your actions, everyone keeps overlooking this small FACT it takes a man AND a woman to make a baby. So if punishment is laid out place it EQUALLY on all parties involved.

Why does there have to be punishment at all?

[TheProwler]

Why does there have to be punishment at all?

Only if it is against the law...if it is against the law, then doing it should be punishable.

If an act is illegal, there is always some type of punishment for committing that act. You really do not want a lawless society.


The question is "Should abortion be illegal?"

If the answer is "Yes", then there should be some form of punishment for breaking that law.

[tzor]

Only if it is against the law...if it is against the law, then doing it should be punishable.

If an act is illegal, there is always some type of punishment for committing that act. You really do not want a lawless society.

Once again, it depends on the exact law and the exact person and circumstances under the law. When we get really enforcement crazy we wind up with people being killed because they were selling loose cigarettes and allegedly avoiding the sales tax in the process. (Actually happened in New York City.)

So it depends on what the law is, who is responsible for the law and who is not. If a bus driver is speeding, do all the riders have to pay an equal speeding ticket?

Consider prohibition, which banned the manufacture, transportation and sale of intoxicating liquors, It didn't ban drinking it. The patrons of the bar were not arrested, the bar owners and workers were.

[Symmetry]

Why does there have to be punishment at all?

Only if it is against the law...if it is against the law, then doing it should be punishable.

If an act is illegal, there is always some type of punishment for committing that act. You really do not want a lawless society.


The question is "Should abortion be illegal?"

If the answer is "Yes", then there should be some form of punishment for breaking that law.

Interesting, but I think in editing out the context of my reply, you may have taken my argument out of context.

I'm just kidding, you definitely, and very literally took it out of context. No two ways about your tactics vis a vis presenting arguments truthfully in context here.

So how do we move forward?

Should I answer your question?

I can answer in a few ways-

1) I can take the techincal route and point out that miscarriages are abortions.

2) I can point out that an excess of law increases lawlessnes.

3) I can get philosophical, arguing that unjust laws do not deserve punishment.

4) kittens are cute

Take your pick

[tzor]

1) I can take the techincal route and point out that miscarriages are abortions.

Yes and I can take the technical (and actually spell it correctly in doing so ... thank's auto-correct) route and point out that miscarriages are caused by ... source

• Chromosomal Abnormalities
• Uterine Abnormalities and Incompetent Cervixes
• Immunologic Disorders
• Untreated Illnesses Such as Thyroid Problems (Both Hyper- and Hypo-Thyroidism) and Uncontrolled Diabetes
• Polycystic Ovary Syndrome (PCOS)

Or in short, either a problem with the embryo or with the uterus and its ability to allow or maintain implantation.

[Symmetry]

1) I can take the techincal route and point out that miscarriages are abortions.

Yes and I can take the technical (and actually spell it correctly in doing so ... thank's auto-correct) route and point out that miscarriages are caused by ... source

• Chromosomal Abnormalities
• Uterine Abnormalities and Incompetent Cervixes
• Immunologic Disorders
• Untreated Illnesses Such as Thyroid Problems (Both Hyper- and Hypo-Thyroidism) and Uncontrolled Diabetes
• Polycystic Ovary Syndrome (PCOS)

Or in short, either a problem with the embryo or with the uterus and its ability to allow or maintain implantation.

What's your point?

[tzor]

What's your point?

You can't use the "miscarriages" argument to support either chemical or surgical abortions. A significant number are the result of nonviable embryos. The rest are due to conditions where implantation in general is difficult for the woman. They are not a "choice" on the part of the woman. They flat out suck, even when they are not even wanted in the first place.

[apey]

Unless a child was concieved by rape, or quality of life for the baby will be poor and the baby will suffer or die, or if the chances of killing the mother are high, abortion should be illegal. If you are responsible enough to spread your legs then you should have to go through with the consequences of your choices. There is birth control, adoption and the morning after pill. Once the heart beats its a human being. IMO.

[Symmetry]

What's your point?

You can't use the "miscarriages" argument to support either chemical or surgical abortions. A significant number are the result of nonviable embryos. The rest are due to conditions where implantation in general is difficult for the woman. They are not a "choice" on the part of the woman. They flat out suck, even when they are not even wanted in the first place.

You can use "miscarriage" as a a starting point for arguments against antiabortion fanatics.

Do you believe that it's right to say that "abortion is murder"? Or would you adopt a more nuanced view rejecting the extremists?

[tzor]

Do you believe that it's right to say that "abortion is murder"? Or would you adopt a more nuanced view rejecting the extremists?

"Murder" is a legal term. I generally hate people who use legal language to frame and manipulate an argument. Every abortion, yes even natural ones, is the death of a human being.

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

A person is aborted ... I am diminished.
A person dies from cancer ... I am diminished.
A person dies from AIDS ... I am diminished.

I care not for a "guilty" verdict. I care for not having a verdict necessary in the first place.

[Symmetry]

Do you believe that it's right to say that "abortion is murder"? Or would you adopt a more nuanced view rejecting the extremists?

"Murder" is a legal term. I generally hate people who use legal language to frame and manipulate an argument. Every abortion, yes even natural ones, is the death of a human being.

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

A person is aborted ... I am diminished.
A person dies from cancer ... I am diminished.
A person dies from AIDS ... I am diminished.

I care not for a "guilty" verdict. I care for not having a verdict necessary in the first place.

Then we are agreed, returning to my first point- it doesn't have to be a crime at all.

[tzor]

Then we are agreed, returning to my first point- it doesn't have to be a crime at all.

Sometimes it is necessary to make something a crime in order to effectively cause changes to implement positive results. I don't think people would be rearing seat belts if people only asked politely. Of course that doesn't mean we jail everyone driving without a seat belt on.

On the other hand, consider red light cameras. Here most governments deliberately shorten the yellow period of the stop light in order to get more revenue. This causes more panic braking and in turn results in a lot of head on collisions with cars who don't realize the car in front of them are panic breaking in order not to get caught when the light changes from yellow to red and thus automatically get a fine.

[Symmetry]

Then we are agreed, returning to my first point- it doesn't have to be a crime at all.

Sometimes it is necessary to make something a crime in order to effectively cause changes to implement positive results. I don't think people would be rearing seat belts if people only asked politely. Of course that doesn't mean we jail everyone driving without a seat belt on.

On the other hand, consider red light cameras. Here most governments deliberately shorten the yellow period of the stop light in order to get more revenue. This causes more panic braking and in turn results in a lot of head on collisions with cars who don't realize the car in front of them are panic breaking in order not to get caught when the light changes from yellow to red and thus automatically get a fine.

And yet criminalising abortion has no effect on abortion rates. Indeed there's even been some evidence that it increases abortion rates slightly, though I think other factors are involved there. So if the aim is to reduce the number of abortions, criminalisation is not effective. It just makes it more dangerous and punishes people who are caught. It's a measure that destroys lives while claiming to save them.

[apey]

Criminalizing*
f*ck symm, atleast try

(Yes i am being an annoying bitch on purpose try ppl stop me while you can b ahead)

[Symmetry]

Criminalizing*
f*ck symm, atleast try

(Yes i am being an annoying bitch on purpose try ppl stop me while you can b ahead)

Why would I use American English when I'm English?

[apey]

Its slang but ok
Also i read an article today about the *spark of life*
Yrs ago in a mouse embryo scientists observed the spark of life
Now has been observed in human embryos....
God, maybe , evolution, perhaps mayb a topuc for discussion....

[warmonger1981]

Light is creation. A cell in a body is exactly that. It's a cell (prison) that has trapped light. AKA creation or life. The Cathars believe that everyone is a spark of light separated from its creator. Abstinence from sex was critical. If you were pregnant they believe that you actually did more harm then good.

[tzor]

And yet criminalising abortion has no effect on abortion rates. Indeed there's even been some evidence that it increases abortion rates slightly, though I think other factors are involved there. So if the aim is to reduce the number of abortions, criminalisation is not effective. It just makes it more dangerous and punishes people who are caught. It's a measure that destroys lives while claiming to save them.

Once again, it all depends on the definition of criminialization. The biggest problem with abortion as it is practiced in the United States is that it is treated as a special procedure upon which no law or regulation can touch. As a result it is the most completely unregulated surgical procedure in the United States. Given the nature of the surgical procedure and the fact that such procedures often come with risks and complications, the lack of standard medical practice enforcement is, in and of itself, a crime against women. Women die from abortions. Women are seriously injured from abortions to the extent that they can never have children again. The abortion lobby loves to cry "choice" but then blocks anything that would give the true facts and choices to that woman.

Everyone loves to also cite Roe v Wade, but that decision was based on a concept called viability. Today viability is thrown out the window. This is even more ironic as viability has been pushed earlier and earlier with all the recent advances in medicine.

So here are a number of ways to address the issue ...

Ensure proper medical safety standards in all facilities insisting on hospital rights in case complications arise. Yes that would shut down a vast number of these modern butcher shops, but women's lives are literally at risk in those places. When you are bleeding profusely from a perforated uterus the last thing you need is to have to walk outside because the hallways are too narrow for a stretcher into an ambulance that drops you off at the hospital without any information as to what happened at the facility because the person performing the procedure had no rights in the hospital.

Post viability limitations. This would be from fetal pain acknowledgement to outright prohibition of late term abortions except for those cases where natural birth or C section is not an option.

True informed consent. This includes the understanding of the actual risks of the medical procedure and the actual state of the developing fetus. This isn't really a form of making something "illegal" but it could easily reduce the number of abortions. The lie of "abortion is the safe and simple removal of tissue" causes more people to wrongly risk their lives and later regret their decisions.

Allow the growth of alternatives. Alternatives threaten the "industry."

Break up the semi-monopoly. (Actually destroy it completely.) We need proper gynecologists who derive their income as much from births as they do abortions so they don't have "skin in the game" of the woman's decision. Planned Parenthood derives all of their revenue from the process of the procedure of abortion (and no, Virginia, they do not do Mammograms).

[Symmetry]

And yet criminalising abortion has no effect on abortion rates. Indeed there's even been some evidence that it increases abortion rates slightly, though I think other factors are involved there. So if the aim is to reduce the number of abortions, criminalisation is not effective. It just makes it more dangerous and punishes people who are caught. It's a measure that destroys lives while claiming to save them.

Once again, it all depends on the definition of criminialization. The biggest problem with abortion as it is practiced in the United States is that it is treated as a special procedure upon which no law or regulation can touch.

No law or regulations on performing abortions? Really?

Really, Tzor? No regulations or laws regarding abortions?

https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/overview-abortion-laws

*Sigh*

Really, really? No laws or regulations can touch abortion?

So anyway, if, as I pointed out, criminalising abortion, or making it illegal has no impact on abortion rates, then you must surely agree, given your earlier statements that you did not desire punishment, but rather a deterrant effect, that making abortion illegal is wrong.

[tzor]

No law or regulations on performing abortions? Really?

In a number of states there are regulations "on the books" but the state government doesn't enforce them. Facilities are deliberately left uninspected, reports are hidden away, wrongful deaths are ignored and complaints from patients are sent into limbo.

Really, really? No laws or regulations can touch abortion?

Just try to insist that facilities have hallways that can accommodate stretchers and Planned Parenthood will claim you want to kill women.

If you want the truth, go here.

Emergency Transport of Abortion Patient Delayed by Evasive Caller and Distracted Dispatcher

911 Calls Confirm Carhart Nearly Killed One Abortion Patient, Seriously Injured Another

No Gurney: Barely Able to Walk, Planned Parenthood Patient is Lifted into Ambulance

Abortionist Desperate on 911 Call after He Tore a Hole in Abortion Patient

911 at Cleveland Abortion Clinic: She’s 21.3 Weeks & Something Went Wrong During the Procedure

St. Louis Planned Parenthood Sends 30th Patient to the Emergency Room since 2009

[Bernie Sanders]

Men talking about matters concerning women. Glad we have men willing to control a woman's reproduction system.

[Symmetry]

No law or regulations on performing abortions? Really?

In a number of states there are regulations "on the books" but the state government doesn't enforce them. Facilities are deliberately left uninspected, reports are hidden away, wrongful deaths are ignored and complaints from patients are sent into limbo.

Really, really? No laws or regulations can touch abortion?

Just try to insist that facilities have hallways that can accommodate stretchers and Planned Parenthood will claim you want to kill women.

If you want the truth, go here.

Emergency Transport of Abortion Patient Delayed by Evasive Caller and Distracted Dispatcher

911 Calls Confirm Carhart Nearly Killed One Abortion Patient, Seriously Injured Another

No Gurney: Barely Able to Walk, Planned Parenthood Patient is Lifted into Ambulance

Abortionist Desperate on 911 Call after He Tore a Hole in Abortion Patient

911 at Cleveland Abortion Clinic: She’s 21.3 Weeks & Something Went Wrong During the Procedure

St. Louis Planned Parenthood Sends 30th Patient to the Emergency Room since 2009

A nutso antiabortion website does not really constitute evidence. You seem to be dodging the question here again.

Either you support making abortion illegal, or you don't. If you do, how can you reconcile your stance with your previous arguments that it's not about punishment?

It would not be a deterrent, clearly, and your feigned concern over women's welfare seems the height of hypocrisy in light of the dangers presented by illegal abortions.