Oh Noo's for the people of the US

[Avron]

YDKS, no there have not been directives of this level in place since WW2 and I'd love to know why the hell you think this. Theres the emergency powers act but that doesn't even come close to what this does. Did you even read it?

[ksslemp]

YDKS, no there have not been directives of this level in place since WW2 and I'd love to know why the hell you think this. Theres the emergency powers act but that doesn't even come close to what this does. Did you even read it?

First of all, I don't know what YDKS stands for so explain.

Secondly, Yes i read it. I may be reading something different than you though. I read the last link provided by Guiscard. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html
Its very straightforward in providing for the structure to facilitate a continuity of gov't in the event of national emergency, and one that would be transparent and visible to the citizens, so that minimal panic will ensue.

Please copy and paste the sections you are concerned about in your response.

[Anarchist]

What does taking control of busineses have to do with national security>?

It pretty much gives Bush 100% control in case of a "national catastrophe"
meaning a hurricane,avion flu outbreak, another perfectly timed terrorist attack when approval ratings are down...

No, im not gonna read that damn thing again...

[Guiscard]

YDKS, no there have not been directives of this level in place since WW2 and I'd love to know why the hell you think this. Theres the emergency powers act but that doesn't even come close to what this does. Did you even read it?

First of all, I don't know what YDKS stands for so explain.

Secondly, Yes i read it. I may be reading something different than you though. I read the last link provided by Guiscard. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html
Its very straightforward in providing for the structure to facilitate a continuity of gov't in the event of national emergency, and one that would be transparent and visible to the citizens, so that minimal panic will ensue.

Please copy and paste the sections you are concerned about in your response.

All your points are valid if used correctly...

But, in essence, it is a dictatorship clause. It allows a single figure to assume complete control with no checks or balances.

Hitler used a similar legal status to pass a law which basically outlawed opposition. There is no legal restraint, if the conditions of the directive were met, from the President basically doing the same thing. He/she can pass laws without limitation, personally define foreign policy (so, in essence, declare war), take charge of the economy...

I'm not suggesting Bush will in any way abuse these powers, nor are they put in place deliberately to create the situation which I have described, but it is the potential for future abuse that is intensely worrying. For a good leader, the directive provides the right way to run your country in a time of crisis... But for the wrong leader...

[Avron]

Screw this I'm moving to South Africa. Nelson Mandela Owns

[DirtyDishSoap]

[ksslemp]

YDKS, no there have not been directives of this level in place since WW2 and I'd love to know why the hell you think this. Theres the emergency powers act but that doesn't even come close to what this does. Did you even read it?

First of all, I don't know what YDKS stands for so explain.

Secondly, Yes i read it. I may be reading something different than you though. I read the last link provided by Guiscard. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html
Its very straightforward in providing for the structure to facilitate a continuity of gov't in the event of national emergency, and one that would be transparent and visible to the citizens, so that minimal panic will ensue.

Please copy and paste the sections you are concerned about in your response.

All your points are valid if used correctly...

But, in essence, it is a dictatorship clause. It allows a single figure to assume complete control with no checks or balances.

Hitler used a similar legal status to pass a law which basically outlawed opposition. There is no legal restraint, if the conditions of the directive were met, from the President basically doing the same thing. He/she can pass laws without limitation, personally define foreign policy (so, in essence, declare war), take charge of the economy...

I'm not suggesting Bush will in any way abuse these powers, nor are they put in place deliberately to create the situation which I have described, but it is the potential for future abuse that is intensely worrying. For a good leader, the directive provides the right way to run your country in a time of crisis... But for the wrong leader...

In my view it is a necessity in times of dire crisis, which is what this addresses. "Dictatorship Clause"? I wouldnt go that far, in that type of crisis you need a central figure and not a lead by committee mentality.

Also the directive isnt in place to provide further power to Bush, its in place for the acting president, which in the case of Bush & Cheney dying in the initial attack, it would be President Pelosi.
We have plenty of checks and balances in the American system.

On your Hitler point, my only response would be Different time, Different culture. I believe Hitler had control of the Media, that helped.

There are no perfect systems because they always include the Human Element, American Citizens i must admit are apathetic when it comes to Gov't and Politics, I can only do my part by keeping myself, my friends and my family informed.

If it came down to a President becoming a Dictator, I have no doubt the citizens would rise up and remove that person. I'd be the first to take up arms against them.

[ksslemp]

What does taking control of busineses have to do with national security>?

It pretty much gives Bush 100% control in case of a "national catastrophe"
meaning a hurricane,avion flu outbreak, another perfectly timed terrorist attack when approval ratings are down...

No, im not gonna read that damn thing again...

What section was this provision covered in? I cant comment until i understand what you're referring to.

I see you're a Critical Thinker!!

[Anarchist]

yes I am, and your not going to make me look through that list are you?

Ksslemp,
we have a media that reports selective news, (watch BBC for a few nights compared to american)

The Commitee is united in their agendas, just this week the "Tough" Democrats gave bush exactly what he wanted. 28% approval rating?
COME ON!!!!

Bush and Cheney dont have to die for this to kick in, only time our leaders get killed is when they are trying to do the right thing(lincoln,kennedy)

No perfect system? So lets settle for the pyramid scheme? Why not go back to the monarchy atleast the King owns the country instead of leasing it! I want a government thats flat, Pheasant has the same power as the king. One man,One voice!

[ksslemp]

yes I am, and your not going to make me look through that list are you?

Ksslemp,
we have a media that reports selective news, (watch BBC for a few nights compared to american)

The Commitee is united in their agendas, just this week the "Tough" Democrats gave bush exactly what he wanted. 28% approval rating?
COME ON!!!!

Bush and Cheney dont have to die for this to kick in, only time our leaders get killed is when they are trying to do the right thing(lincoln,kennedy)

No perfect system? So lets settle for the pyramid scheme? Why not go back to the monarchy atleast the King owns the country instead of leasing it! I want a government thats flat, Pheasant has the same power as the king. One man,One voice!

Well with a comment like "another perfectly timed terrorist attack when approval ratings are down... " I'd have to say you're NOT a critical thinker.

and Yes i would like you to look through that directive again, I don't believe something just because someone says it! I need to read it myself in the context in which it was written in order to have an opinion on it.
Find it, copy and paste it here on this forum for everyone to see, and please copy and paste the whole section and not just appd a/b etc.

An open and honest debate of the issue is all we need.

If you're referring to "Bobby" Kennedy, i agree.

[Avron]

If you don't stop posting in different colors your gonna be the next muggafugga assassinated. Got it?

[ksslemp]

If you don't stop posting in different colors your gonna be the next muggafugga assassinated. Got it?

I Got It!!!

I'm still waiting for you to back-up your comments.
Please copy and paste those sections that you are concerned about in your response.

Just a question, what do you do for a living?

[Anarchist]

This directive, completely unnoticed by the media, and given no scrutiny by Congress, literally gives the White House unprecedented dictatorial power over the government and the country, bypassing the US Congress and obliterating the separation of powers. The directive also placed the Secretary of Homeland Security in charge of domestic “security”.

alright here we go, there were more sections that could be applied but were worded loosely, It also made the point clear that anyone resisting any actions of the government would be deemed an enemy of the nation and be dealt with accordingly.
To be honest I find it suprising that so many would doubt the government taking complete control in an "emergency"
This bill was approved by one person. George W Bush. Congress had no say, and will have no say if implemented. The policy also has an indefinate timetable.

(b) "Catastrophic Emergency" means any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions;

(1) This directive establishes a comprehensive national policy on the continuity of Federal Government structures and operations and a single National Continuity Coordinator responsible for coordinating the development and implementation of Federal continuity policies. This policy establishes "National Essential Functions," prescribes continuity requirements for all executive departments and agencies, and provides guidance for State, local, territorial, and tribal governments, and private sector organizations in order to ensure a comprehensive and integrated national continuity program that will enhance the credibility of our national security posture and enable a more rapid and effective response to and recovery from a national emergency.

Credibility?

(c) Defending the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and preventing or interdicting attacks against the United States or its people, property, or interests;

could be abused ^

(8) The National Continuity Coordinator, in consultation with the heads of appropriate executive departments and agencies, will lead the development of a National Continuity Implementation Plan (Plan), which shall include prioritized goals and objectives, a concept of operations, performance metrics by which to measure continuity readiness, procedures for continuity and incident management activities, and clear direction to executive department and agency continuity coordinators, as well as guidance to promote interoperability of Federal Government continuity programs and procedures with State, local, territorial, and tribal governments, and private sector owners and operators of critical infrastructure, as appropriate. The Plan shall be submitted to the President for approval not later than 90 days after the date of this directive.

(10) Federal Government COOP, COG, and ECG plans and operations shall be appropriately integrated with the emergency plans and capabilities of State, local, territorial, and tribal governments, and private sector owners and operators of critical infrastructure, as appropriate, in order to promote interoperability and to prevent redundancies and conflicting lines of authority. The Secretary of Homeland Security shall coordinate the integration of Federal continuity plans and operations with State, local, territorial, and tribal governments, and private sector owners and operators of critical infrastructure, as appropriate, in order to provide for the delivery of essential services during an emergency.

(c) Vital resources, facilities, and records must be safeguarded, and official access to them must be provided;

(a) Shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and the authorities of agencies, or heads of agencies, vested by law, and subject to the availability of appropriations;

(e) "Enduring Constitutional Government," or "ECG," means a cooperative effort among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of the Federal Government, coordinated by the President, as a matter of comity with respect to the legislative and judicial branches and with proper respect for the constitutional separation of powers among the branches, to preserve the constitutional framework under which the Nation is governed and the capability of all three branches of government to execute constitutional responsibilities and provide for orderly succession, appropriate transition of leadership, and interoperability and support of the National Essential Functions during a catastrophic emergency;

allright im done, I think I posted enough that private sectors would be under the scrutiny of the government, local police would be under the command of the military, etc... now Im not saying they are going to seize your local record store, Im saying what Bush wants, he gets.

(Bush is the last person I would want in charge during an emergency)

[ksslemp]

Anarchist
PostPosted: 28 May 2007 14:00 Post subject:
Quote:
This directive, completely unnoticed by the media, and given no scrutiny by Congress, literally gives the White House unprecedented dictatorial power over the government and the country, bypassing the US Congress and obliterating the separation of powers. The "directive also placed the Secretary of Homeland Security in charge of domestic “security”.

These powers are not "Unprecedented", it's the same powers the President had before, it's just that the directive was updated to include the new Homeland Security Department.
Where and who is this quote from?

(b) "Catastrophic Emergency" means any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions;

No Shit.

(1) This directive establishes a comprehensive national policy on the continuity of Federal Government structures and operations and a single National Continuity Coordinator responsible for coordinating the development and implementation of Federal continuity policies. This policy establishes "National Essential Functions," prescribes continuity requirements for all executive departments and agencies, and provides guidance for State, local, territorial, and tribal governments, and private sector organizations in order to ensure a comprehensive and integrated national continuity program that will enhance the credibility of our national security posture and enable a more rapid and effective response to and recovery from a national emergency.

Credibility?

Yes, Credibility! In that Citizens have confidence instilled in them that the Gov't and nation for that matter is still a "Credible" entity. In regards to the Private Sector part, this pertains to Charities, Hospitals, Transport companies, Service org's, whose help would be needed to regain stability and domestic security. Would you rather sit around waiting for an "Official" gov't agency to help you? Again this section is nothing new!

(c) Defending the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and preventing or interdicting attacks against the United States or its people, property, or interests;


could be abused ^

I believe this is actually part of the Oath of the presidency Again nothing New!

(Cool The National Continuity Coordinator, in consultation with the heads of appropriate executive departments and agencies, will lead the development of a National Continuity Implementation Plan (Plan), which shall include prioritized goals and objectives, a concept of operations, performance metrics by which to measure continuity readiness, procedures for continuity and incident management activities, and clear direction to executive department and agency continuity coordinators, as well as guidance to promote interoperability of Federal Government continuity programs and procedures with State, local, territorial, and tribal governments, and private sector owners and operators of critical infrastructure, as appropriate. The Plan shall be submitted to the President for approval not later than 90 days after the date of this directive.

(10) Federal Government COOP, COG, and ECG plans and operations shall be appropriately integrated with the emergency plans and capabilities of State, local, territorial, and tribal governments, and private sector owners and operators of critical infrastructure, as appropriate, in order to promote interoperability and to prevent redundancies and conflicting lines of authority. The Secretary of Homeland Security shall coordinate the integration of Federal continuity plans and operations with State, local, territorial, and tribal governments, and private sector owners and operators of critical infrastructure, as appropriate, in order to provide for the delivery of essential services during an emergency.

"interoperability" is the key word here. This is just a fancy word for "Working Together" to assist in effecting a Continuity of service in vital sectors such as Electricity, Sewage, Fuel. Medical Treatment. Many of which ARE Private Sector services. It's not that difficult to understand, and nothing new! They're not "Stealing" businesses.

(c) Vital resources, facilities, and records must be safeguarded, and official access to them must be provided;


(a) Shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and the authorities of agencies, or heads of agencies, vested by law, and subject to the availability of appropriations;


(e) "Enduring Constitutional Government," or "ECG," means a cooperative effort among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of the Federal Government, coordinated by the President, as a matter of comity with respect to the legislative and judicial branches and with proper respect for the constitutional separation of powers among the branches, to preserve the constitutional framework under which the Nation is governed and the capability of all three branches of government to execute constitutional responsibilities and provide for orderly succession, appropriate transition of leadership, and interoperability and support of the National Essential Functions during a catastrophic emergency;


allright im done, I think I posted enough that private sectors would be under the scrutiny of the government, local police would be under the command of the military, etc... now Im not saying they are going to seize your local record store, Im saying what Bush wants, he gets.

(Bush is the last person I would want in charge during an emergency)

The "appropriate transition of leadership" as set forth in the U.S. Constitution! Not that scary if you ask me and not an "abuse" of powers either!

It's not Scutiny but a partnership between public and private sectors to facilitate needed services in a National Emergency.

I hate to say it but i think you're paranoid. I hope you're not doing Speed? Meth will do that to you.

I ask you to rethink your position, there is nothing in this Directive to be concerned about.

[Avron]

Once again your wrong dear god. And stop posting in different fonts its so god damn annoying. NO ONE LIKES IT. I typed that in all caps for a reason, no one likes all caps. I'm not gonna continue on this discussion with you as much as I hate to say this discussion over, your wrong where right. I started the debate and here forth I end it, move on. You don't have to but I started and and as debate started I hereby pull out of this discussion that has dwindled down to a argument.




End For Me

[ksslemp]

Once again your wrong dear god. And stop posting in different fonts its so god damn annoying. NO ONE LIKES IT. I typed that in all caps for a reason, no one likes all caps. I'm not gonna continue on this discussion with you as much as I hate to say this discussion over, your wrong where right. I started the debate and here forth I end it, move on. You don't have to but I started and and as debate started I hereby pull out of this discussion that has dwindled down to a argument.




End For Me

That's what i thought you'd say!

Learn how to friggin' spell.

As for the font issue, Get over it!. I'll use any font/color/size/italics that i feel like using.

[Iz Man]

Poor USA... You'll wish you still had an impotent Queen.

Do you really want to go down the road of debating a powerless, figurehead monarchy?

[Alexwales93]

Poor USA... You'll wish you still had an impotent Queen.

Do you really want to go down the road of debating a powerless, figurehead monarchy?

No, not THIS again!

[Guiscard]

Poor USA... You'll wish you still had an impotent Queen.

Do you really want to go down the road of debating a powerless, figurehead monarchy?

The whole 'impotent' thing was a clue to the invisible [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags you idiot.

[Guiscard]

In my view it is a necessity in times of dire crisis, which is what this addresses. "Dictatorship Clause"? I wouldnt go that far, in that type of crisis you need a central figure and not a lead by committee mentality.

Also the directive isnt in place to provide further power to Bush, its in place for the acting president, which in the case of Bush & Cheney dying in the initial attack, it would be President Pelosi.
We have plenty of checks and balances in the American system.

On your Hitler point, my only response would be Different time, Different culture. I believe Hitler had control of the Media, that helped.

There are no perfect systems because they always include the Human Element, American Citizens i must admit are apathetic when it comes to Gov't and Politics, I can only do my part by keeping myself, my friends and my family informed.

If it came down to a President becoming a Dictator, I have no doubt the citizens would rise up and remove that person. I'd be the first to take up arms against them.

(I've removed the annoying colours)...

I'm not arguing that in a time of crisis it is very much beneficial to have a central figure in complete control, all I am saying is that it is open to abuse. I'm sure that 90% of all the presidents in the past and future would use these powers for the good of America and not abuse them in any way. The problem is that there is always that possibility of abuse, and that is the scary thing.

If it came down to a president becoming a dictator, the American citizens would have no choice! The president would have complete personal control of the military (uprising? nah...), economy (jobs for dissenters? nah...), lawmaking (further checks on power? nah...) and he would have control of the media! He could pass laws creating a media blackout! Remember that Hitler was beloved by nearly all when he came to power as a strong leader who would bring Germany back to its rightful place as a world power!

[ksslemp]

In my view it is a necessity in times of dire crisis, which is what this addresses. "Dictatorship Clause"? I wouldnt go that far, in that type of crisis you need a central figure and not a lead by committee mentality.

Also the directive isnt in place to provide further power to Bush, its in place for the acting president, which in the case of Bush & Cheney dying in the initial attack, it would be President Pelosi.
We have plenty of checks and balances in the American system.

On your Hitler point, my only response would be Different time, Different culture. I believe Hitler had control of the Media, that helped.

There are no perfect systems because they always include the Human Element, American Citizens i must admit are apathetic when it comes to Gov't and Politics, I can only do my part by keeping myself, my friends and my family informed.

If it came down to a President becoming a Dictator, I have no doubt the citizens would rise up and remove that person. I'd be the first to take up arms against them.

(I've removed the annoying colours)...

I'm not arguing that in a time of crisis it is very much beneficial to have a central figure in complete control, all I am saying is that it is open to abuse. I'm sure that 90% of all the presidents in the past and future would use these powers for the good of America and not abuse them in any way. The problem is that there is always that possibility of abuse, and that is the scary thing.

If it came down to a president becoming a dictator, the American citizens would have no choice! The president would have complete personal control of the military (uprising? nah...), economy (jobs for dissenters? nah...), lawmaking (further checks on power? nah...) and he would have control of the media! He could pass laws creating a media blackout! Remember that Hitler was beloved by nearly all when he came to power as a strong leader who would bring Germany back to its rightful place as a world power!

If you were an American, you wouldn't have written any of this. Why because it can't happen. Yes there would be an uprising! Americans would shoot the SOB in a week! Complete control of the Military? Ha Ha (wont happen) Stopping people from having Jobs? (ridiculous) Complete control of the Media? (this is the funniest one!). I understand what you're trying to say about Hitler, but we're a different culture with a different history in a different time.

[Iz Man]

If you were an American, you wouldn't have written any of this. Why because it can't happen. Yes there would be an uprising! Americans would shoot the SOB in a week! Complete control of the Military? Ha Ha (wont happen) Stopping people from having Jobs? (ridiculous) Complete control of the Media? (this is the funniest one!). I understand what you're trying to say about Hitler, but we're a different culture with a different history in a different time.

He forgot about the Second Amendment to.

[Guiscard]

If you were an American, you wouldn't have written any of this. Why because it can't happen. Yes there would be an uprising! Americans would shoot the SOB in a week! Complete control of the Military? Ha Ha (wont happen) Stopping people from having Jobs? (ridiculous) Complete control of the Media? (this is the funniest one!). I understand what you're trying to say about Hitler, but we're a different culture with a different history in a different time.

Fucks sake... Can you not get it into your head?

Being American does not mean that in no point in the future a leader will abuse his position. You could not rise up against a leader if everyone thought he was doing the right thing. Different time different culture means nothing, especially in a world where America is going to increasingly come under threat from all quarters - Asia economically, the EU as a gradually more unified political power, the Middle East in terms of foreign policy...

Then, when you get a terrorist attack or an economic crash and your leader says 'Hey guys, I'm a strong leader. I know what is right for America. I'm going to control things personally!' you'll all say 'Hell yeh! He's right!' Then, when you want an uprising, he is in control of the miltary, with his people in all major command posts. He is in charge of the economy, the reserve, of inflation, taxation... He can make laws. There are already rules for a media blackout, but do you not think that, in the event of a terrorist attack, the president could quite successfully control the media with the pre-text of stopping mass hysteria or spreading lies to further the terrorist cause?

Dictators often creep up on people! In the Chavez thread you are arguing that he is a corrupt dictator, but he was voted into power and he has the majority of public opinion, wrongly or rightly, behind him!

Being American is nothing special. It doesn't make you any less susceptible.

[Guiscard]

If you were an American, you wouldn't have written any of this. Why because it can't happen. Yes there would be an uprising! Americans would shoot the SOB in a week! Complete control of the Military? Ha Ha (wont happen) Stopping people from having Jobs? (ridiculous) Complete control of the Media? (this is the funniest one!). I understand what you're trying to say about Hitler, but we're a different culture with a different history in a different time.

He forgot about the Second Amendment to.

What? The one which gives militias the technology to fight chemical weapons, cluster bombs, heat seeking missiles and advanced bombers? Nice one... You have the strongest military in the world, and however many shotguns you own an uprising really hasn't been an option since WWII.

[ksslemp]

If you were an American, you wouldn't have written any of this. Why because it can't happen. Yes there would be an uprising! Americans would shoot the SOB in a week! Complete control of the Military? Ha Ha (wont happen) Stopping people from having Jobs? (ridiculous) Complete control of the Media? (this is the funniest one!). I understand what you're trying to say about Hitler, but we're a different culture with a different history in a different time.

He forgot about the Second Amendment to.

What? The one which gives militias the technology to fight chemical weapons, cluster bombs, heat seeking missiles and advanced bombers? Nice one... You have the strongest military in the world, and however many shotguns you own an uprising really hasn't been an option since WWII.

Don't forget, those men and women in our military are Americans too!
If you were an American, you'd understand that it could'nt happen.