Why is god mysterious?

[Guiscard]

hey guis...admittedly i havent done as much theological mumbo jumbo lately. I was wondering if you knew any good places to look (either internet or not) for good stuff on either one of the issues you presented in the last post. Im pretty familiar with the argument of evil (and i find it highly unlikely it will be able to be dealt with by theist here - not necesarily a knock against the theist so much as its a pretty strong argument) and with free will/Theodicy but i could always use some more info, and i think you categorically know more than i do lol.

To be honest I'm not sure whether the internet is the greatest place to look (as it can be pretty flawed or biased) unless you have access to university level journals and suchlike (I do through a thing called Athens but unless you're a student you have to pay). I've studied philosophy in the past, and generally I've just used the great resources that University libraries can provide.

Perhaps the best modern expansion and explanation is that provided by David Hume in Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion (1779) which you can most likely find online by googling it.

One of my favoured internet resources for philosophy is the Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy, and I often advise some of the undergrads I teach to take a look there to familiarise themselves with particular medieval philosophical issues: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/

[Colossus]

Okay, this is going to sound terrible to many people, but here goes anyway...


There has been a bit of talk in this thread about the holocaust as an example of something 'bad' that happened that God should have/would have stopped if he were an omnipotent, omniscient being that has loving feelings toward man. I posed an idea earlier that has not been addressed yet, and the idea is this: tragedy is a matter of perspective. I realize the holocaust was an unspeakably terrible thing to the people touched by it (and in many ways all of modern society was touched by it), but in the God-sense (i.e. on the cosmic scale) was it, or any other tragedy of man, really such a big deal? On the cosmic scale, 6 million Jews or even the entirety of the human race is pretty inconsequential. Not entirely inconsequential, but largely so. One of the things that I believe is that God is present in every point in space at every moment, and that God is the universe but also more than it. I don't understand the point of view where God so loves a person that he intervenes to save that person's life. This is another paradox of typical Christian teaching, as I see it. God created the universe, and we are a part of that universe....a very, very, very teeny part, so why should a benevolent God who loves all things preserve my life? Especially when doing so would controvert the natural order (i.e. all things other than me)? It seems to me that the things we think of as 'bad' or 'tragic' are because they involve our individual lives, not because they are truly of monumental negative circumstances in the vastness of existence. Death is a natural part of life. Why is one death worse than another? We certainly (and I certainly) feel that the death of a 90-year-old man in his sleep is less tragic than a child that is hit by a car and killed. But why? In the grand sense, it really doesn't matter. Dead is dead, and we all die. And if death is a returning to God (as it supposedly is for 'His people'), death is not such a bad thing. In fact, I think death is in and of itself a blessing, as is the ability to feel pain. Both are fundamental parts of the experience of life, and that is the greatest gift of all, in my opinion. Anyway, I don't know if this post made any sense or got across what I mean here, but it's kind of a difficult point to make without going on and on.

[got tonkaed]

my first response is that eh that just doesnt feel right (perhaps my socialization kicking in).

Perhaps we arent capable of understanding the value on one death vs another, but i am able to understand the value of millions upon millions of death vs no death at all. The idea that a God would not intervene or that these deaths should somehow be written off, is not sound ground to stand on, and i think this should be fairly evident. At least it should be if we choose to believe in any kind of God who does good.

And as a following up aside....Thanks for the article Guiscard...i pretty much knew much of 1 going in, did pretty well with section 2 (enjoyed that 18 step argument), had a hard time following 3 because im not that well versed in probability and rallied back to understand part 4 (or at least i think i might have lol) the article was pretty good i would say.

[Anarchist]

Okay, this is going to sound terrible to many people, but here goes anyway...


There has been a bit of talk in this thread about the holocaust as an example of something 'bad' that happened that God should have/would have stopped if he were an omnipotent, omniscient being that has loving feelings toward man. I posed an idea earlier that has not been addressed yet, and the idea is this: tragedy is a matter of perspective. I realize the holocaust was an unspeakably terrible thing to the people touched by it (and in many ways all of modern society was touched by it), but in the God-sense (i.e. on the cosmic scale) was it, or any other tragedy of man, really such a big deal? On the cosmic scale, 6 million Jews or even the entirety of the human race is pretty inconsequential. Not entirely inconsequential, but largely so. One of the things that I believe is that God is present in every point in space at every moment, and that God is the universe but also more than it. I don't understand the point of view where God so loves a person that he intervenes to save that person's life. This is another paradox of typical Christian teaching, as I see it. God created the universe, and we are a part of that universe....a very, very, very teeny part, so why should a benevolent God who loves all things preserve my life? Especially when doing so would controvert the natural order (i.e. all things other than me)? It seems to me that the things we think of as 'bad' or 'tragic' are because they involve our individual lives, not because they are truly of monumental negative circumstances in the vastness of existence. Death is a natural part of life. Why is one death worse than another? We certainly (and I certainly) feel that the death of a 90-year-old man in his sleep is less tragic than a child that is hit by a car and killed. But why? In the grand sense, it really doesn't matter. Dead is dead, and we all die. And if death is a returning to God (as it supposedly is for 'His people'), death is not such a bad thing. In fact, I think death is in and of itself a blessing, as is the ability to feel pain. Both are fundamental parts of the experience of life, and that is the greatest gift of all, in my opinion. Anyway, I don't know if this post made any sense or got across what I mean here, but it's kind of a difficult point to make without going on and on.

Nice Arguement,
I could personally go with a little less pain and loss to my person,thankyou
Go EAGLES!!!

As for America being founded through the assistance of god.
Did he do it because he supported the slavery in the south,witch hunts in the north, or was he more dedicated to slaughtering the natives?
in the name of god take responsibility for your own individuality!

Anyone wonder if christianity is more dependent on the Devil or on Christ? [/i]

[dail123]

So how is the 'god works in mysterious ways' response to questions about why he didn't intervene when millions of natives were dying of smallpox, or when his chosen people were being slaughtered in gas chambers, at all acceptable?

some people don't ask god this question because they are afriad he will ask them why we didn't stop it

[Colossus]

But what is GOOD, tonka? I mean, really. God's definition of what is 'good' is probably quite different than yours or mine. I mean, after all, God in the bible is not subject to his own rules really. He breaks the 'thou shalt not kill' commandment over and over and over. Why is the preservation of human life on earth 'good'? My big brother once told me that as a biomed researcher, if I wanted to do something really great, I would develop a virus that would wipe out half of the people on earth. He was only half kidding. There are lots of people who make the argument that depopulation is the best thing that humanity could do, the most 'good'. (I don't subscribe to this argument, myself, btw.) 'Good' and 'bad' are really a matter of perspective, aren't they?

[jay_a2j]

So how is the 'god works in mysterious ways' response to questions about why he didn't intervene when millions of natives were dying of smallpox, or when his chosen people were being slaughtered in gas chambers, at all acceptable?[

some people don't ask god this question because they are afriad he will ask them why we didn't stop it

Good point.

BTW I do not recall anyone saying in this thread, "Well, because God works in mysterious ways".

[Guiscard]

Okay, this is going to sound terrible to many people, but here goes anyway...


There has been a bit of talk in this thread about the holocaust as an example of something 'bad' that happened that God should have/would have stopped if he were an omnipotent, omniscient being that has loving feelings toward man. I posed an idea earlier that has not been addressed yet, and the idea is this: tragedy is a matter of perspective. I realize the holocaust was an unspeakably terrible thing to the people touched by it (and in many ways all of modern society was touched by it), but in the God-sense (i.e. on the cosmic scale) was it, or any other tragedy of man, really such a big deal? On the cosmic scale, 6 million Jews or even the entirety of the human race is pretty inconsequential. Not entirely inconsequential, but largely so. One of the things that I believe is that God is present in every point in space at every moment, and that God is the universe but also more than it. I don't understand the point of view where God so loves a person that he intervenes to save that person's life. This is another paradox of typical Christian teaching, as I see it. God created the universe, and we are a part of that universe....a very, very, very teeny part, so why should a benevolent God who loves all things preserve my life? Especially when doing so would controvert the natural order (i.e. all things other than me)? It seems to me that the things we think of as 'bad' or 'tragic' are because they involve our individual lives, not because they are truly of monumental negative circumstances in the vastness of existence. Death is a natural part of life. Why is one death worse than another? We certainly (and I certainly) feel that the death of a 90-year-old man in his sleep is less tragic than a child that is hit by a car and killed. But why? In the grand sense, it really doesn't matter. Dead is dead, and we all die. And if death is a returning to God (as it supposedly is for 'His people'), death is not such a bad thing. In fact, I think death is in and of itself a blessing, as is the ability to feel pain. Both are fundamental parts of the experience of life, and that is the greatest gift of all, in my opinion. Anyway, I don't know if this post made any sense or got across what I mean here, but it's kind of a difficult point to make without going on and on.

In answer to this, the reason I have been highlighting the holocaust is that it is perhaps the most extreme example of human suffering and that genocide, if anything, is going to help certain theists understand the argument I am presenting. The problem of evil does, however, encompass (for me at least) every human tear, every grazed knee, even every eyebrow plucked!

It would have been within God's power to give us ultimate joy in heaven, and even allowing the smallest injustice or the most inconsequential pain is still a contradiction in his benevolence.

If he is letting us 'travel the road', as it were, in an effort to let us reach a higher joy, then that again limits his power - he cannot give us that 'higher joy' himself and so he is not omnipotent!

The scale of the suffering does not matter. A single baby starving is no less of an attack on his omnibenevolence and omnipotence than the holocaust!

[Guiscard]

some people don't ask god this question because they are afriad he will ask them why we didn't stop it

And I would answer that you don't let your child murder someone just to see if they had the moral fortitude to resist without your interference. Thats fucking ridiculous.

[Colossus]

Why is pain bad? What is suffering, really? They are a matter of acceptance or refusal to accept. Have you ever had a really, really bad headache that you just allowed yourself a few minutes to really sit quietly and feel, and by doing so, it went away? I have. Pain is just another part of experience. Suffering is refusal to accept pain as a part of experience, as a part of life. Suffering is the want of what we don't have.

To quote the Tao Te Ching: He who knows he has enough is rich.

[jay_a2j]

some people don't ask god this question because they are afriad he will ask them why we didn't stop it

And I would answer that you don't let your child murder someone just to see if they had the moral fortitude to resist without your interference. Thats fucking ridiculous.

Why? We go on living our lives excluding God from all our affairs. Then when tragedy hits we cry, "Where is God?!" THAT is ridiculous to me!

[Guiscard]

Why is pain bad? What is suffering, really? They are a matter of acceptance or refusal to accept. Have you ever had a really, really bad headache that you just allowed yourself a few minutes to really sit quietly and feel, and by doing so, it went away? I have. Pain is just another part of experience. Suffering is refusal to accept pain as a part of experience, as a part of life. Suffering is the want of what we don't have.

To quote the Tao Te Ching: He who knows he has enough is rich.

You can easily go with that argument. To an extent I believe it myself, as I am pretty relative in my outlook. It does have severe theological repercussions, though.

However, if you believe in an afterlife, and if you believe in a Heaven then that heaven MUST be better than the life we have on earth, else there is no need to strive towards it and morality falls down. Therefore, God is, for whatever reason, not letting us just access heaven straight away when, as an omnipotent being, he can just place us their at birth. That, therefore, contradicts his omnibenevolence as he is not doing the absolute best he could for us.

So that leaves you either with a lazy and imperfect God or else a world with no heaven and hell and no actual moral code (as opposed to a perceived one)

[b.k. barunt]

Interesting passage in Matthew 11:17&18 (Jesus speaking to the hypocrites) - "Whereunto shall i liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, and saying, we have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented." The gist of this thread seems to be "God doesn't do things like i would, therefore he cannot be real." Go figure.

[jay_a2j]

Interesting passage in Matthew 11:17&18 (Jesus speaking to the hypocrites) - "Whereunto shall i liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, and saying, we have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented." The gist of this thread seems to be "God doesn't do things like i would, therefore he cannot be real." Go figure.

b.k. I'm starting to really like you! Very perceptive!

[Guiscard]

some people don't ask god this question because they are afriad he will ask them why we didn't stop it

And I would answer that you don't let your child murder someone just to see if they had the moral fortitude to resist without your interference. Thats fucking ridiculous.

Why? We go on living our lives excluding God from all our affairs. Then when tragedy hits we cry, "Where is God?!" THAT is ridiculous to me!

Because.An.Apparently.Benevolent.God.Is.Still.Allowing.Evil.And.That.Contradicts.His.Nature.Over?

Jay you're really not too bright on the whole logical and philosophical debate thing, are you? Constantly returning to religious rhetoric does not answer the question whatsoever. There are countless theologians and philosophers who have proposed decent rebuttals. I suggest you look some of them up, then at least you'll be wrongly convinced of a reasoned argument not a ignorant one.

[Colossus]

The gist of this thread seems to be "God doesn't do things like i would, therefore he cannot be real." Go figure.

That's a main part of my point. We cannot know God's mind, so conversations about the way God should behave don't make sense.

And Guiscard, I truly believe that heaven is right here right now. That was a major part of Christ's message to us. I agree with you that the points I'm arguing create a serious problem for established rules of various religions. They do not, however, present a problem with faith in God. Perhaps a change in the understanding of God, but not a problem with faith in his existence.

[Colossus]

Benevolence is a matter of perspective! When you were a kid, Guiscard, your parents surely did things that you didn't think were what you wanted....but perhaps they were best for you? Couldn't it be possible that God works that way to some extent, too?

[Guiscard]

The gist of this thread seems to be "God doesn't do things like i would, therefore he cannot be real." Go figure.

That's a main part of my point. We cannot know God's mind, so conversations about the way God should behave don't make sense.

And Guiscard, I truly believe that heaven is right here right now. That was a major part of Christ's message to us. I agree with you that the points I'm arguing create a serious problem for established rules of various religions. They do not, however, present a problem with faith in God. Perhaps a change in the understanding of God, but not a problem with faith in his existence.

We do indeed. In this sort of world, however, what reason would there be to bother believing in God? What exact benefit can he give you?

[Iz Man]

Because.An.Apparently.Benevolent.God.Is.Still.Allowing.Evil.And.That.Contradicts.His.Nature.Over?

I am not deeply religious, but I do believe in God.
Correct me if I'm wrong Guis, but if I understand you correctly, you're saying how can there be a God if He allows man to commit "evil" acts. By doing this He contradicts His own teachings.
If that is what you're saying, then the answer lies in two words:

Free Will.

[jay_a2j]

some people don't ask god this question because they are afriad he will ask them why we didn't stop it

And I would answer that you don't let your child murder someone just to see if they had the moral fortitude to resist without your interference. Thats fucking ridiculous.

Why? We go on living our lives excluding God from all our affairs. Then when tragedy hits we cry, "Where is God?!" THAT is ridiculous to me!

Because.An.Apparently.Benevolent.God.Is.Still.Allowing.Evil.And.That.Contradicts.His.Nature.Over?

Jay you're really not too bright on the whole logical and philosophical debate thing, are you? Constantly returning to religious rhetoric does not answer the question whatsoever. There are countless theologians and philosophers who have proposed decent rebuttals. I suggest you look some of them up, then at least you'll be wrongly convinced of a reasoned argument not a ignorant one.

If God was to babysit the World and make sure bad things didn't happen. There would be NO FREE WILL! The whole POINT is that God has given us FREE WILL! To assume that "If God was a loving and compassionate God, evil would not exist!" TOTALLY overlooks what HE has done for us! HE WENT TO THE CROSS AND TOOK OUR SINS UPON HIMSELF SO THAT WE MIGHT LIVE!!!!!"


You need to get out of the "all there is is THIS life" mode. We are talking about ETERNITY! The things that happen on this planet (outside of receiving Christ) have absolutely NO MEANING! "No stone will left on another". Its all going to pass away. Stop putting your faith in humanity and turn to God!




<Rant over>

[mr. incrediball]

some people don't ask god this question because they are afriad he will ask them why we didn't stop it

And I would answer that you don't let your child murder someone just to see if they had the moral fortitude to resist without your interference. Thats fucking ridiculous.

Why? We go on living our lives excluding God from all our affairs. Then when tragedy hits we cry, "Where is God?!" THAT is ridiculous to me!

Because.An.Apparently.Benevolent.God.Is.Still.Allowing.Evil.And.That.Contradicts.His.Nature.Over?

Jay you're really not too bright on the whole logical and philosophical debate thing, are you? Constantly returning to religious rhetoric does not answer the question whatsoever. There are countless theologians and philosophers who have proposed decent rebuttals. I suggest you look some of them up, then at least you'll be wrongly convinced of a reasoned argument not a ignorant one.

If God was to babysit the World and make sure bad things didn't happen. There would be NO FREE WILL! The whole POINT is that God has given us FREE WILL! To assume that "If God was a loving and compassionate God, evil would not exist!" TOTALLY overlooks what HE has done for us! HE WENT TO THE CROSS AND TOOK OUR SINS UPON HIMSELF SO THAT WE MIGHT LIVE!!!!!"


You need to get out of the "all there is is THIS life" mode. We are talking about ETERNITY! The things that happen on this planet (outside of receiving Christ) have absolutely NO MEANING! "No stone will left on another". Its all going to pass away. Stop putting your faith in humanity and turn to God!




<Rant over>

so, we should have total faith in god, but we shouldn't rely on him...

[Colossus]

The future is an illusion, Jay. All God has given us is right now, and if we want to celebrate his gift to us, then we must make the absolute most out of right now. Being now is the greatest praise we can give God.

[unriggable]

The gist of this thread seems to be "God doesn't do things like i would, therefore he cannot be real." Go figure.

That's a main part of my point. We cannot know God's mind, so conversations about the way God should behave don't make sense.

WHICH IS WHY WE CANNOT KNOW THAT HE HATES HOMOSEXUALITY.

[jay_a2j]

The future is an illusion, Jay. All God has given us is right now, and if we want to celebrate his gift to us, then we must make the absolute most out of right now. Being now is the greatest praise we can give God.

No, we can know God's mind. There's 66 books all about God's mind. You say "we can't know God's mind" yet you do a pretty good job at trying to read it.

[Colossus]

The future is an illusion, Jay. All God has given us is right now, and if we want to celebrate his gift to us, then we must make the absolute most out of right now. Being now is the greatest praise we can give God.

No, we can know God's mind. There's 66 books all about God's mind. You say "we can't know God's mind" yet you do a pretty good job at trying to read it.

First off Jay, I really am starting to not like you very much. Secondly, I am doing the opposite of trying to read God's mind. Thirdly, the bible talks a ton about the way a person should conduct his or her own life while saying incredibly little about God's motivations for the things he does. Sure it says things like 'he was angry that man did x', but it doesn't say why he was angry that they did that. The bible is about what God expects of us. It does not say what we should expect of God, AT ALL.

Even Jesus teachings are far, far, far more focused on how we treat each other than on how God treats us.