Capital Punishment

[Anarkistsdream]

personally beezer i think at times you are a bit too quick to point out people are attacking christianity. Certainly there are different levels of intent, but i would argue that pretty much every thread we have on here one side attacks the other throughout the elucidation of their points (except for me of course, i would never stoop to such a level (please note the sarcasm)). I dont think that in many cases the bashing is quite so bad. Nor do i think that heavy is out of line here, one can understand where an individual gets a belief from and still find the belief weird. As im sure eventually there will be a thread about such a thing, I am probably in the minority in that i dont believe life begins at conception. I understand the variety of sources one could draw on to have such a belief, and i still find the belief to be a little odd. Its not an attack i dont feel, but i am kinda hijacking at this point so ill stop.

GT, I would like to hear this discussion further, because I may agree with you. I also do not believe life begins at conception.

[got tonkaed]

Anark i think its probably for a different thread, though i suppose it is in some fashion similar, dealing with the sanctity of life and all. However i do have to be off to class shortly and dont know exactly what your looking for. If theres a thread about it later ill try and come up with something brillant for the masses lol, or maybe itll just have to to wait for my eventually get to know a ccer thread no? Either way im sure it will get talked about eventually.

Off for now.

[heavycola]

I woudl take get tonkaed's point even further and say that teh source is both relevant and ultimately irrelevant.

Osama justifies his actions using the koran.
Fred Phelps, the KKK and Beezer justify their various beliefs using the bible. Other christians - and this includes, i can safely say, every single christian i know personally - find their beliefs abhorrent, backward and entirely against the fundamental tenets of their faith..

If you can back up these beliefs in the bible or the koran, you can find anything in there. It doesn;t really matter in the end.

[beezer]

personally beezer i think at times you are a bit too quick to point out people are attacking christianity. Certainly there are different levels of intent, but i would argue that pretty much every thread we have on here one side attacks the other throughout the elucidation of their points (except for me of course, i would never stoop to such a level (please note the sarcasm)). I dont think that in many cases the bashing is quite so bad. Nor do i think that heavy is out of line here, one can understand where an individual gets a belief from and still find the belief weird. As im sure eventually there will be a thread about such a thing, I am probably in the minority in that i dont believe life begins at conception. I understand the variety of sources one could draw on to have such a belief, and i still find the belief to be a little odd. Its not an attack i dont feel, but i am kinda hijacking at this point so ill stop.

First of all, you admit it is bashing. The reason you don't think it's that bad is because it's not directed toward you or people like yourself. I really didn't want to turn this into another Christian versus non-Christian thread because that's been done already.

My point is that it is inconsistent for people who do not believe the Bible to try and use the Bible to make their points. I don't believe in the Book of Mormon, so it would be inconsistent for me to try and use it to try and justify my points. But people who have only read 60 - 70% of the Bible start thinking that makes them knowledgeable. Heavy Cola is now trying to pit the Old Testament against the New Testament, which is a classic argument used by people who don't read it all the way through. He is also saying that I am "picking and choosing" which passages to support my position. If you read it all the way through you will see the context of law breaking, punishment, forgiveness, and justice as the main theme all the way through.

[heavycola]

Does forgiveness usually involve killing the person first? How does that work?

I am not using the bible to justify anything, myself. Just pointing out that my understanding of xianity - which I am permitted to have, by the way - does not include execution as a biblical theme. I thought human life was sacred - surely the punishment is up to god?
And you still haven't explained why you feel able to ignore those laws in leviticus with such abandon.

[beezer]

As the stats show, people like you and the iranian state have a lot in common really

Got tonkaed, are you seeing what is happening. I'm now as bad as the Iranian state.

When I watched you converse with luns101 and bk barunt over in the evolution thread you seemed very reasonable. So now the same thing has happened once again...the misrepresentation of us Christians and our positions.

Well guess what, I'm not going to start cowering to those who would try and redefine us. We're going to stand up for what we believe despite the accusations. Go check out the other threads again and observe how Christians are attacked for daring to speak out. Since you're a sociology student you should be open-minded enough to see the pattern.

I have to go to work now. Rest assured I have a family and friends. I am against the abuses of the Iranian state, despite what HeavyCola says.

[heavycola]

OK kneejerk bullshit aside (my apols)...

Does forgiveness usually involve killing the person first? How does that work?

I am not using the bible to justify anything, myself. Just pointing out that my understanding of xianity - which I am permitted to have, by the way - does not include execution as a biblical theme. I thought human life was sacred - surely the punishment is up to god?
And you still haven't explained why you feel able to ignore those laws in leviticus with such abandon.

[b.k. barunt]

beezer, as you can see from my posts, i have no problem killing someone if they attack me or mine. But i cannot say that is the christian thing to do, and i don't try to justify it. I don't follow the Lord. You talk a lot about the Bible, but you know very little about it if you think a believer should impose death as a punishment. The New Testament is very clear about forgiveness (see Lord's Prayer), and not only that, but he clearly states that if you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven. Show me a New Testament validation of your argument.

[juggernaut17]

Not to mention it costs taxpayers about 500,000 dollars per life-sentenced criminal.

[luns101]

I see beezer's point and understand his frustration.

The Bible talks about capital punishment and God allows human government to try to administer it to the best of its ability. It seems that a majority of people here are quoting half-scriptures or half-concepts in order to say that the Christian position on the administration of justice contradicts itself. That's what is so frustrating. A complete reading of the Bible shows a continuous theme, not one of the OT contradicting the NT.

HeavyCola, while nobody should deny someone else the right to give an opinion, it does seem odd that you would use a book that you personally don't believe in to make an argument against someone who does. The point that beezer (I think he's making) is making is that those who don't believe are the ones "cherry picking" the parts which seem to contradict each other. Of course, I know you believe it's us on the capital punishment side that are "cherry picking".

I think beezer's frustration is that our position is being taken out of context for the most part. What happens is that, before you know it, you get wacky phrases like "doesn't the Bible say that God helps those who helps themselves" when it actually never says that. If nobody stands up and tries to correct the record then all types of misconceptions begin to take place. That's how cults get started.

HC, if I compared you to some tyranical regime, don't you think you would take offense to it? Don't be surprised when we do as well.

[luns101]

Not to mention it costs taxpayers about 500,000 dollars per life-sentenced criminal.

The person who was unjustly murdered is worth more than that in my view. I'm glad for my taxes to go towards executing someone who had no right to take another person's life.

Let me repeat that...the person who committed the murder had no right to take the other person's life.

[DangerBoy]

beezer, as you can see from my posts, i have no problem killing someone if they attack me or mine. But i cannot say that is the christian thing to do, and i don't try to justify it. I don't follow the Lord. You talk a lot about the Bible, but you know very little about it if you think a believer should impose death as a punishment. The New Testament is very clear about forgiveness (see Lord's Prayer), and not only that, but he clearly states that if you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven. Show me a New Testament validation of your argument.

If you don't follow the Lord, why would you ask validation from the New Testament.

Sounds to me like you're just trying to set him up by arguing from some obscure passage. It really wouldn't matter to you what he quoted.

[juggernaut17]

Not to mention it costs taxpayers about 500,000 dollars per life-sentenced criminal.

The person who was unjustly murdered is worth more than that in my view. I'm glad for my taxes to go towards executing someone who had no right to take another person's life.

Let me repeat that...the person who committed the murder had no right to take the other person's life.

No, it costs us 500,000 if we keep them alive.

[b.k. barunt]

beezer, as you can see from my posts, i have no problem killing someone if they attack me or mine. But i cannot say that is the christian thing to do, and i don't try to justify it. I don't follow the Lord. You talk a lot about the Bible, but you know very little about it if you think a believer should impose death as a punishment. The New Testament is very clear about forgiveness (see Lord's Prayer), and not only that, but he clearly states that if you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven. Show me a New Testament validation of your argument.

If you don't follow the Lord, why would you ask validation from the New Testament.

Sounds to me like you're just trying to set him up by arguing from some obscure passage. It really wouldn't matter to you what he quoted.

sounds to me like you're dodging the question. So the Lord's Prayer is an "obscure scripture"? Typical CC Jesus freak answer. Again, can any of you offer a New Testament validation of your views?

[Anarchist]

well, it is weird to me that so many american xians are pro-death penalty.

There is a fantastic documentary by Errol Morris called the Thin Blue Line. He lets all his participants do the talking, he never interjects, or edits unscrupulously - and what the film does show is a terrible miscarriage of justice. A cop was shot in cold blood, the convicted man on death row is innocent - but the police wanted a death sentence no matter what and went ahead with the prosecution. (I highly recommend you watch it, both as a warning and as a film). The film was instrumental in overturning the conviction, but what if it hadn't been made?
Is the odd fatal miscarriage of justice a worthwhile price to pay for the killing of actual murderers?
Why not set an example? Why not be the bigger man/woman?

Say what you want about deterrence or justice - the death sentence is about satisfying the urge for vengeance, and no i don't see how that ties in with jesus' teachings.

Here are the figures for known state executions around the world in 205 (figures from Amnesty):

1. CHINA (At least 1,770 Executions)
2. IRAN (At least 94)
3. SAUDI ARABIA (At least 86)
4. UNITED STATES (60)
5. Pakistan (31)


Now that is some pretty shitty company to be keeping in terms of human rights. The US is slap bang in the middle of three nastily hardline muslim countries not known for their sense of justice.
Might be good info for your paper, man:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article ... #interexec

BTW beezer:

People here who disagree with me are making some good points. But when people like HeavyCola make comments about capital punishment being Un-Christian, that shows me that he has actually not read the Bible. You can't even get out of Genesis before the topic of capital punishment is covered at least twice. You don't have to be a great theologian to discover it...it's in the very first book of the Bible!

BECAUSE YOU PICK AND CHOOSE TOO. Leviticus says it is a sin to cut yoru hair, to wear different kinds of cloth at once... but you disregard that. 'The NT is the new covenant', is the rejoinder i hear most. So which is it? Love thy neighbour? By frying him with elecrticity? It's barbaric, and in an elementary way you are as bad as the muslim extremists claiming their actions are justified by the koran.

HeavyCola makes a good point, ofcourse i have never supported the justice system. People have been using religion for their own personal goals for centuries, even now Jesus is for sale. Im against all organised religion, i think they are both sick in the head. I agree with capital punishment, A man who rapes a woman should have his member cut off. However part of the problem seems to be that police is a profit organisation, no justice in that. I know this isnt a politically correct answer nor is it 100% right. I think theres bigger issues then strictly punishment, and that is flaws in the system and our ideology. I see no excuse why a rapist and murderer should be allowed to get off easy.

Ofcourse one mans murderer is another mans soldier,just as ones terrorist is another freedom fighter. I'm talking serial killer, my answer on other situations would be biased, not saying im not.

[luns101]

sounds to me like you're dodging the question. So the Lord's Prayer is an "obscure scripture"? Typical CC Jesus freak answer. Again, can any of you offer a New Testament validation of your views?

I'd like to give this one a shot, bk. But if this is between you and beezer, then I'll stay out.

[2dimes]

sounds to me like you're dodging the question. So the Lord's Prayer is an "obscure scripture"? Typical CC Jesus freak answer. Again, can any of you offer a New Testament validation of your views?

I'd like to give this one a shot, bk. But if this is between you and beezer, then I'll stay out.

Just curious luns, are you going to explain how "judge not lest ye be judged." is not a direction against judging people but a warning? Esentially you better be in a right place in your own life before you decide to speak out about what others are doing wrong.

[luns101]

Just curious luns, are you going to explain how "judge not lest ye be judged." is not a direction against judging people but a warning? Esentially you better be in a right place in your own life before you decide to speak out about what others are doing wrong.

BK is asking for a specific case built on New Testament scriptures. I believe there are New Testament passages which reinforce that.

After reading your post, it would seem that you are inferring that Christians who stand up against evil are themselves hypocrites, so why should they bother even trying to take a stand.

You've got me pegged! I'm a hypocrite, I admit it. But so are you and the rest of world. So let's just never punish anybody ever again for doing anything wrong because it would be hypocrital. Everyone has done something wrong at some point in their lives, but it doesn't disqualify them from understanding that evil needs to be punished.

If you're interested, I'll give the position that I was originally responding to BK on. I don't know how serious people will take it. Most people here dismiss the Biblical position on any subject here outright because they think the Bible is not true.

[2dimes]

Nah I was just wondering if that was the direction you were going.

Of course, we're all hypocrites. It's one of the things humans are good at.

I think too often people seem to think Jesus was trying to say, "Oh... I don't know... judging people is mean we should just let everybody do what ever."

When I think he was saying, "Straighten up yourself then you can see the difference between good and bad."

It's my nature to tell you not to do something then do it myself when no one is looking.

ie. "Hey luns put that wallet back and scram you dirt bag!" "Heh heh, now that he's gone."

*walks over and empties wallet*

[luns101]

When I think he was saying, "Straighten up yourself then you can see the difference between good and bad."

It's my nature to tell you not to do something then do it myself when no one is looking.

ie. "Hey luns put that wallet back and scram you dirt bag!" "Heh heh, now that he's gone."

*walks over and empties wallet*

Actually, he was saying to humanity, "you are unable to straighten yourselves up so let me do it for you."

I still have $$ in that wallet? I thought I spent it all already on Pete's Wicked Ale!!

[CrazyAnglican]

I am completely and totally for standing up against evil. However, I think that life in prison is sufficient. The problem is that life in prison, usually means twelve years before the guy is parolled. I got that figure from the Georgia Dept. of Corrections, and the info. is nearly twenty years old so it could be wildly inaccurate. I don't see the need to execute. In some cases, like serial killers, a live criminal can provide info to profilers to catch others. (I'm not talking "Silence of the Lambs", but interviews and observations used to compile databases on certain types of murderers).

If you can guarentee that life in prison actually means he stays in prison until he dies, I am all for letting the cretan stay there with plenty of time to repent.

[2dimes]

Actually, he was saying to humanity, "you are unable to straighten yourselves up so let me do it for you."

That's a seperate issue, kind of like don't pray repititious prayers that are written down. Then he gives a structure of how to pray which becomes the most repeated prayer ever written.

Back to the judging thing. It's not don't help your brother dimes with the spinter in his eye ever.

It's take out the plank in your own eye so you are capable of helping me.

[luns101]

Back to the judging thing. It's not don't help your brother dimes with the spinter in his eye ever.

It's take out the plank in your own eye so you are capable of helping me.

Exactly, and since neither you nor I (or anybody else for that matter) is capable of truly taking out the plank, we are all utterly lost and therefore need Him to change us.

I'm not trying to dodge the issue with you...I'm enjoying this actually. But the original title of the thread was about capital punishment. I was trying to give the Biblical justification for the death penalty. It seems that both of us are starting to deviate into more of an apologetics type discussion.

I can talk about it with you in a different thread if you want.

[2dimes]

I can talk about it with you in a different thread if you want.

No, I'm good with where we're at. I'll catch you in another thread about something sometime.

[flashleg8]

Flashleg8, are you sure that you would still like to argue your position that nobody is inherently evil...sigh. You have forced my hand to present proof.



Yes, it's David Hasselhoff!

Like the man in orthopedic shoes - I stand corrected!

And your correct to pull me up about the evil=morally wrong, I really meant I don't believe in inherent evil.
Interesting example of children playing though, I think you'd agree with William Golding "Lord of the Flies" with that one.