French Universities

[Neoteny]

I know we need a question on France and socialism as much as we need a hole in the head (another hole, for some), but I was recently (last semester) informed of something that worries me intensely. The dean of the science department at my university, with only the slightest hint of jest, stated in one of my classes that "the French don't do science anymore." He blamed this phenomenon primarily on the structure of the French university system, which, as he explained it to me, tends to spread out the particularly brilliant scientists so that everyone in the country might have access to their teaching and influence. However, this serves to isolate the individuals from other people who, together, might forge new advances in the various sciences.

I have a few questions related to this for anybody from France, or who is #up to date on current French/university relations (it's hard to get that kind of information here in the US):

1) Is this socialistic viewpoint the primary reasoning (I've done some research and it seems that there is political bickering about the situation as well that isn't getting anything accomplished... huzzah for politics) for the French situation, and if so...

2) I read an article dating to the middle of last year stating that Sarkozy had been involved in a plan to give more power to the universities as far as hiring, admissions, etc. Was this plan followed through, and were there any improvements made?

3) My personal opinions on the politics of socialism and capitalism are in some murky grey area that attempts to take the best of both worlds. However, I have been informed that the socialism in the past (ignoring the Soviets, they were not so hot) tended to be science-friendly. Have I been misinformed and this situation is a bastardization of the socialist learning perspective (it doesn't seem that way to me at first glance), or is this the only way socialist intellectuals can allow themselves to sleep at night after organizing the university system?

4) Is this occuring in other European countries?

If this is the effect socialism is having on European institutions of learning, it is one that I must decry as a terrible waste of talent and potential. Our university systems are a (if not the) primary source of advances in critical sectors of our society. Finally,

5) What should be done? Is anyone else worried? Are the days of Pasteur and de Broglie gone?

[ignotus]

4) Is this occuring in other European countries?

If this is the effect socialism is having on European institutions of learning, it is one that I must decry as a terrible waste of talent and potential. Our university systems are a (if not the) primary source of advances in critical sectors of our society. Finally,

5) What should be done? Is anyone else worried? Are the days of Pasteur and de Broglie gone?

To answer question number 4:
Not in Croatia or other ex-Yugoslavian countries. We had similar system, but it was in our grade and middle schools (teachers were sent somewhere by government decree) and it was 40 years ago. We have a few good universities so all our good professors stay on them all of their life (once you get a good professorship you don't change it till retirement). Government still covers most of the scholarships, but people are free to do what they want afterwards.
And other thing that affects our educational system is brain drain.

[Napoleon Ier]

having read nothing but the title :

are shit. That is all. Our best Uni, Paris VI, ranks in at 40th worldwide. The system is the most perverted possible.

[Frigidus]

having read nothing but the title :

are shit. That is all. Our best Uni, Paris VI, ranks in at 40th worldwide. The system is the most perverted possible.

More curiosity than anything, but who's #1?

[Dancing Mustard]

http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduni ... versities/

Harvard allegedly; but it's worth remembering that the ranking criteria (peer assessment) does favour US institutions somewhat...

[ignotus]

having read nothing but the title :

are shit. That is all. Our best Uni, Paris VI, ranks in at 40th worldwide. The system is the most perverted possible.

More curiosity than anything, but who's #1?

Stanford!

http://www.webometrics.info/top4000.asp

I think this list is at least suspicious because first 20 are all American and my University (biggest and best in Croatia) is placed on 2380th place.

[Dancing Mustard]

Iggy, I think your ranking is based on their 'web presence' rather than their awesomeness...

(I too share your consternation at finding certain universities of my home nation ranked lower than I anticipated)

[ignotus]

Even by arwu we are not even close.

http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2007/ranking2007.htm

[Neoteny]

Well, clearly, American universities are the epitome of intellectual standard, so any appearance of bias perceived and not actual.

UM is tied for 38 according to DMs list... go Blue!

I'm surprised Tokyo wasn't higher than it was though.

[Snorri1234]

http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2007/overall_rankings/top_100_universities/

Harvard allegedly; but it's worth remembering that the ranking criteria (peer assessment) does favour US institutions somewhat...

So the first 16 universities are from english-speaking countries?

What do they base these rankings on actually?

[got tonkaed]

though this is quite the opposite of what your getting after and probably rather tangential, many american academics are claiming just about the exact same thing of american universities as a result of the commodification process which higher education is undergoing.

In a lot of ways i think it boils down to something rather simple, in as far as education is going to interact with the common culture at large, it is going to be victim to the ills of that culture. If elements of french socialist practice detract from scientific study (something i cant possibly be able to comment on) then that will eventually slip into the academia.

I will say this though, a lot of the problems of higher education are related to quite an impressive disconnect between what people think higher education is supposed to provide (on both the academic and administrative side) and what people are expecting on the demand side.

[btownmeggy]

Well, clearly, American universities are the epitome of intellectual standard, so any appearance of bias perceived and not actual.

Yes. This is true, actually.

[Dancing Mustard]

Well, clearly, American universities are the epitome of intellectual standard, so any appearance of bias perceived and not actual.

Yes. This is true, actually.

That's sarcasm right?

[btownmeggy]

The culture of strike, so common in France (and various other countries, like Brazil, where I attempt to do my research but am stifled by universities continually being closed by strikes), is pretty damaging to post-secondary education. As a leftist, it's hard for me to say this, but it's true.

Actually being on campus becomes a rarity. Students start to not care. Professors start to not care. Staff starts to not care. Universities physically and socially fall into decay.

[btownmeggy]

Well, clearly, American universities are the epitome of intellectual standard, so any appearance of bias perceived and not actual.

Yes. This is true, actually.

That's sarcasm right?

Definitely not. There are several good British universities. A few others are scattered throughout the world. But production of knowledge is heavily, heavily, heavily concentrated in the United States. Students from everywhere in the world who are smart enough or rich enough seek out spots in U.S. American universities. Academics from everywhere in the world who are accomplished enough, prestigious enough are offered positions at U.S. universities and eagerly accept. The OP talking about a concentration of great minds... that's your average top-notch US university.

I'd love to live in Spain or Latin America, but to do so would be to kiss my career as an academic good-bye. Teaching at CUNY, a grimy hole of a university, is better than teaching at UNAM, the scholarly star of Mexico.

[Dancing Mustard]

Heh, well with all due respect here; perhaps other European institutions might be better rivals against which to measure the US institutions that you speak of (Oxford University springs to mind)? Might I enquire which ones you've actually visited? Outside of Europe might I suggest that a visit to institutions such as the University of Tokyo could be an opinion changing exercise?

At any rate, I'm sure I'm taking you too literally here, but I can't stress how much I think it's a sweeping generalisation to imagine that the US is the only country in the world that has top-rate Universitys.

[Napoleon Ier]

Quite. >Oxford at less than 20th is just a pure f*cking joke.

[btownmeggy]

perhaps other European institutions might be better rivals against which to measure the US institutions that you speak of

Better rivals than UNAM, you mean?

Obviously. As I noted in my introductory paragraph.

You were complaining about how however many out of the top however many were English-speaking. I'm defending that standard. I'm not just talking about Oxford and Cambridge in Britain. LSE, St. Andrews, Leeds (as just a few examples) are all excellent universities, and I would argue, better than practically all non-English-speaking universities.

[Frigidus]

Quite. >Oxford at less than 20th is just a pure f*cking joke.

I thought it might give first a run for its money.

[Dancing Mustard]

Steady on Meg, I'm not having a go at you personally here; I was just saying that perhaps US Universitys might not be (as you seemed to be saying) the sole denizens of academia's 'premier league'. I was just saying that a significant degree of recognition was deserved by the leading academic institutions of Europe (and perhaps other non-EU G8 nations) which are easily on par with the US's leading universities.
I was also saying that 'peer review' inevitably favours the US, as the majority of the 'peers' selected for opinions just so happen to be Americans and/or working in American Universitys.

You were complaining about how however many out of the top however many were English-speaking.

No I wasn't. I haven't actually said that here... perhaps somebody else? At any rate, that wasn't my bone of contention.

Of course English speaking institutions are the best, let's not forget that English is the language God wrote the bible in.

LSE, St. Andrews, Leeds (as just a few examples) are all excellent universities

Steady on there, no need to go too mad with this...

[Frigidus]

Of course English speaking institutions are the best, let's not forget that English is the language God wrote the bible in.

Correction: It was written in American! God Bless America!

[Dancing Mustard]

Quite. >Oxford at less than 20th is just a pure f*cking joke.

I thought it might give first a run for its money.

I'd always heard it ranked 2nd or 3rd.

As such I hereby declare that this ranking is the most valid one posted so far: http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduni ... versities/

(No offence to Iggy, but that 'webometric' ranking was based on some fairly spurious criteria)

[Snorri1234]

perhaps other European institutions might be better rivals against which to measure the US institutions that you speak of

Better rivals than UNAM, you mean?

Obviously. As I noted in my introductory paragraph.

You were complaining about how however many out of the top however many were English-speaking. I'm defending that standard. I'm not just talking about Oxford and Cambridge in Britain. LSE, St. Andrews, Leeds (as just a few examples) are all excellent universities, and I would argue, better than practically all non-English-speaking universities.

Well naturally non-english speaking countries have a problem with their lectures not being english and therefore not favourable for foreign students, but that doesn't explain why it's primarily the American ones at the top and also fails to account for the fact that most universities offer all of the curriculum in english too. I don't have a single book of medicine that's not english.
English is at the moment the scientific language of choice, but that doesn't mean the American universities are neccesarily the best ones.

You fail to actually explain why the USA has the best universities, just assuming they do. I don't doubt that many of them are very good, as the US has a system to just buy knowledge. (Meaning they have the funds to get many great minds due to the fact they have much more money than most other universities.) But I have to ask why they are the best in the entire world, considering all the things that determine good universities. (I would include in that definition not only how smart some of the people there are.)

And does anyone know what things they actually based their list on? It's very unclear.

[Snorri1234]

No I wasn't. I haven't actually said that here... perhaps somebody else? At any rate, that wasn't my bone of contention.

That was me I think, though I merely was wondering why.

[Neoteny]

I couldn't tell you why American institutions receive such praises, but perhaps it's something as flimsy as reputation. The "American enterprise" can be very alluring, I believe, and it's not difficult for me to imagine that as having an effect on the talent our universities bring in. It's clear, even in the podunk South, that the university system of America is becoming very international. Within the hard science department at my school, the number of professor's who don't speak English as a first language is not negligible, particularly in the chemistry department. The question is, "what attracts these professors to American institutions?" I can't say I know the answer to that. Maybe I'll ask one. This is, of course, assuming there is no bias in the rating system. And I will note that there aren't any professors of European descent at my university. Perhaps all "western" universities should be lumped in with American in that question.

Not to mention, there are several different types of colleges in that listing. Is it appropriate to compare technical schools to liberal arts schools?