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What happens to organized religion...

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What happens to organized religion...

Postby jimboston on Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:07 pm

My initial title was too long...

“What happens to organized religions when you start mixing with people of other faiths?”

So I was just thinking about this today.

... before I start with my anecdotal stories I want to state up front that I know my experience is NOT true everywhere in the world... or even in this country (the USA). Even in my region, the Northeast, there are still closed-mixed bigoted people. So I know what I say isn’t universal, but it does seem as it is becoming the new norm. (... and. I think it’s good.)

So I was raised Catholic, went to a Catholic school, and really never interacted with anyone on an intimate basis who wasn’t Catholic. I’m sure there were some neighbors, coworkers, shop-keepers, etc. who were not Catholic... but they were probably mostly some form of Christian.
(One big exception was my uncle, who married my aunt... he was non-practicing Jewish... but we never really talked about religion.)

Now, as a child I was told that the ONLY PATH TO ETERNAL LIFE (i.e. Heaven) WAS THROUGH JESUS. This is a tenant of Catholicism (even today), and true of most other religions. My teachers and priests would make exceptions for other Christians... saying that they could go to heaven because they acknowledged Jesus as the one true son of God. No one else could go to Heaven. Not debatable. (A big reason I started questioning my faith was when as a child I learned Gandhi wasn’t Christian and I asked if he could go to heaven, and my Priest said “NO”.

Now today, my daughter’s experience is much different. She does go to a Catholic school like me... but unlike my experience many of the kids who go there aren’t Catholic or even Christian. She had a small birthday party with just her closest friends a few years back, attending were 3 Catholics (1 devout Catholic and 2 kinda Catholic In Name Only), 1 Muslim girl, and 1 Jewish girl. That’s her core friend group. They teach Catholicism at the school and all kids (regardless of religion) must take the class... but they are not heavy-handed when it comes to other religions and the emphasis is more on spirituality, the history of the Bible / Bible stories, and the teachings of Jesus in terms of the ideas he taught versus his existence as the Son of God.

The whole basis for most organized religions is that you need to basically get the blessings of the organized religion, the hierarchy, in order to achieve the right ‘state of grace’ and then (and only then) can you pass into heaven. Throughout history there’s always been a very strong “us and them” mentality, promoted by the religions, to separate people of various religions and sects.

... but when you start associating with people of other religions, and you grow up close friends with people of other faiths, and you love these people.... how can you believe your church leaders when they tell you the friend you love can’t go to heaven?

... I don’t even think the churches around here go into it... yes if you press a priest he kinda has to say the “sole path to heaven is through Jesus”.... but how do you do this in a Catholic school when you have Jewish and Muslim kids in class. You don’t!

So how will this impact religions in the short term? long term?

Will these olde religions die? Or will they evolve? Can they evolve?

I think if I told my daughter the full doctrine of the Catholic Church tomorrow she’d think it was blatantly ridiculous.... and if I said (Whcih is part of the doctrine) that you can’t “be truly Catholic and pick-and-choose the parts of the doctrine you like... it’s all or nothing” she’d drop it before she believed her friends were less heaven-worthy then herself.

Thoughts?
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:32 pm

jimboston wrote:A big reason I started questioning my faith was when as a child I learned Gandhi wasn’t Christian and I asked if he could go to heaven, and my Priest said “NO”.


What makes your priest the judge of who goes to heaven? Or, more importantly to our story - what makes you the judge, or your daughter?
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby HitRed on Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:52 pm

The Catholic Church teaches it is the Fullness of Truth but not the sole holder of truth.Protestants still believe in The God of Abraham, The 10 Commandments, Bapism to forgive sins, the Trinity and yes Jesus. Not the Eucharist (some exceptions). Same with Jewish believers, The God of Abraham, The 10 Commandments.

The sad truth is not everyone is going to Heaven.

There are two main thoughts on this.

1) God judges you.

2) You or your heart choose your destination of Heaven or Hell.
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby mrswdk on Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:45 am

It's not like people have a binary choice of either 'believe in a religion and look down on all non-believers' or 'abandon your religion'. Most religious people are not fundamentalists or zealots.
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby mrswdk on Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:07 am

DoomYoshi wrote:
jimboston wrote:A big reason I started questioning my faith was when as a child I learned Gandhi wasn’t Christian and I asked if he could go to heaven, and my Priest said “NO”.


What makes your priest the judge of who goes to heaven? Or, more importantly to our story - what makes you the judge, or your daughter?


This. 'Heaven' is a concept is specific to the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) which all teach that people can go to heaven even if they are not a follower of that religion.
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby KoolBak on Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:31 am

Interesting read.

I was raised, and am still firmly, agnostic. With no built in religious faith and my love of scientific knowledge of the universe (big fucking place), believing in the whole religion thing is a stretch.

However I chose to go to a private Catholic college. Sister school to Notre Dame. Quality of education plus my GF was going there....lol.

Anyhow, they required everyone to take theology and philosophy full time, all 4 years. I was quite nervous of the theology.

Turns out it was completely objective and covered all major religions known. The priest (father?) That taught the judeo christian portion began his class with "The Bible is a work of fiction and we can't prove Jesus existed". The rest of the class busted a nut while I immediately loved this guy. Comes down to faith. Very interesting 4 years if study. I got straight As. My best friend (still to this day), a devout Catholic born and bred, struggled....lol. All of them had a tough time with the other religions.

Close minded, uptight, tunnel visioned, holier than thou jackwagons for the most part. Sad. Religion sposed to make you a better person? Mine is the tightest, happiest family I've ever been exposed to. Can't simply being a good person be a thing without the threat of eternal damnation?

My youngest son's best friend growing up had to stop being friends as his batshit crazy Mormon parents deemed him not appropriate. Had words with them at the grocery store....that was fun. Poor kid now has no friends and us failing in school. Good job parents.
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:36 am

KoolBak wrote:Mine is the tightest, happiest family I've ever been exposed to.


That's great, but a lot of non-religous families are falling apart. I know my own family needs 2 cottages because most of them can't stand to be in the same room at the same time. I am disowned by 1 family member, another hasn't spoken to me in years. I'm not allowed to talk to another, my sister pretends she doesn't have a mother, etc. That is from an "evangelistic atheist" family perspective.

What is depressing is that the people who need religion most in this life (the people who won't be good otherwise) seem to be the first ones to abandon it.

For example, in the States, working class white people are one of the least likely groups to attend church (possibly due to the suburbanization of church culture). Yet if there was ever a group that could benefit (in this life) from more discipline, that would be it. Here's a link to a blog post that mentions what I am talking about, not the greatest source. To those who aren't in church, it is easy to characterize the churced as a bunch of uneducated yokels. To those of us seeped in church culture, we realize that the very poor are usually not welcomed as they should be. Basically anyone who knows more than 10 recipes for hot dogs and who has a kitchen where the only clean thing is the Kool-Aid spoon probably doesn't go to church (that's my best description of the white trash often characterized as Christian, but they don't actually show up to church, so whether they are Christian or not is not something that I can measure).

KoolBak wrote:Can't simply being a good person be a thing without the threat of eternal damnation?


On the eternity question, a lot of the misunderstanding stems from different worldviews. Classic Christian theologians would argue that you can't be a good person. However, many do disagree about this. Are people generally good or generally bad? I'm firmly in the camp that all people are generally disgusting, with a few exceptions. Some people think that people are generally good, with a few exceptions. I probably won't be able to convince you one way or the other.
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby KoolBak on Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:00 am

Agreed Yosh. I'd have to say a majority of folks are self centered d-nozzles. And having faith has nothing to do with it IMO. Another family of a friend of my son's.....very religious, and the dad has zero knowledgo of doing.....anything. I take my tools, help him dismantle and rebuild a deck. Build him a firepit. Help him install a starter. Trying to be a good neighbor. He realizes one day I'm not religious (or baptised! Oh nos!!) and he pitches an absolute fit. Daughter can no longer talk to my son. Won't fucking return several hundred dollars of MY tools at his crib. Fucking self righteous prick. Let the stupid f*ck know if he opened his mouth to me again I'd punch him in the throat. Cause I'm kool like that.

Fucker runs away whenever he sees me now. I feel better :lol:

I'm sorry about your family.....sad. My bride's family is just like that. All good southern baptists :lol:

(cracked TF up at the koolaid spoon comment....lol)
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby jimboston on Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:09 am

DoomYoshi wrote:
jimboston wrote:A big reason I started questioning my faith was when as a child I learned Gandhi wasn’t Christian and I asked if he could go to heaven, and my Priest said “NO”.


What makes your priest the judge of who goes to heaven? Or, more importantly to our story - what makes you the judge, or your daughter?


I don’t presume to be the judge, nor does my daughter.

The Catholic Church Doctrine dictates that you can only go to Heaven Through Jesus... i.e. you must accept Jesus as the Son of God and your Savior.

(I don’t subscribe to this believe... just telling you what the Church says.)
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby jimboston on Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:11 am

HitRed wrote:The Catholic Church teaches it is the Fullness of Truth but not the sole holder of truth.Protestants still believe in The God of Abraham, The 10 Commandments, Bapism to forgive sins, the Trinity and yes Jesus. Not the Eucharist (some exceptions). Same with Jewish believers, The God of Abraham, The 10 Commandments.

The sad truth is not everyone is going to Heaven.

There are two main thoughts on this.

1) God judges you.

2) You or your heart choose your destination of Heaven or Hell.


Yeah... and they teach that the Truth is Jesus... and if you don;t accept Jesus you ain’t going to Heaven.
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Re: What happens to organized religion

Postby jimboston on Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:13 am

mrswdk wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
jimboston wrote:A big reason I started questioning my faith was when as a child I learned Gandhi wasn’t Christian and I asked if he could go to heaven, and my Priest said “NO”.


What makes your priest the judge of who goes to heaven? Or, more importantly to our story - what makes you the judge, or your daughter?


This. 'Heaven' is a concept is specific to the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) which all teach that people can go to heaven even if they are not a follower of that religion.


Yes and No.

Speaking for Catholicism... you can get to Heaven even if you aren’t Catholic... but you do have to beChristian and believe Jesus is the One True Savior.
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby jimboston on Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:15 am

KoolBak wrote:Interesting read.

I was raised, and am still firmly, agnostic. With no built in religious faith and my love of scientific knowledge of the universe (big fucking place), believing in the whole religion thing is a stretch.

However I chose to go to a private Catholic college. Sister school to Notre Dame. Quality of education plus my GF was going there....lol.

Anyhow, they required everyone to take theology and philosophy full time, all 4 years. I was quite nervous of the theology.

Turns out it was completely objective and covered all major religions known. The priest (father?) That taught the judeo christian portion began his class with "The Bible is a work of fiction and we can't prove Jesus existed". The rest of the class busted a nut while I immediately loved this guy. Comes down to faith. Very interesting 4 years if study. I got straight As. My best friend (still to this day), a devout Catholic born and bred, struggled....lol. All of them had a tough time with the other religions.

Close minded, uptight, tunnel visioned, holier than thou jackwagons for the most part. Sad. Religion sposed to make you a better person? Mine is the tightest, happiest family I've ever been exposed to. Can't simply being a good person be a thing without the threat of eternal damnation?

My youngest son's best friend growing up had to stop being friends as his batshit crazy Mormon parents deemed him not appropriate. Had words with them at the grocery store....that was fun. Poor kid now has no friends and us failing in school. Good job parents.


Basically agree with your world view here.

What / how they teach religion at the college level is different than what / how they teach in the Elementary and High School levels.
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:11 am

jimboston wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
jimboston wrote:A big reason I started questioning my faith was when as a child I learned Gandhi wasn’t Christian and I asked if he could go to heaven, and my Priest said “NO”.


What makes your priest the judge of who goes to heaven? Or, more importantly to our story - what makes you the judge, or your daughter?


I don’t presume to be the judge, nor does my daughter.

The Catholic Church Doctrine dictates that you can only go to Heaven Through Jesus... i.e. you must accept Jesus as the Son of God and your Savior.

(I don’t subscribe to this believe... just telling you what the Church says.)


Your comments indicated that you do somewhat believe yourself to be judge.

You said Gandhi not being Christian made you question your faith. I was just following this to mean that you think Gandhi "should be" in heaven. So the question becomes then, do you trust yourself to make that call? Or even better, do you trust the priest to make that call?

I don't think it is up for humans to decide the eternal destiny of other humans. However, it is up to you to decide. If you knowingly choose to reject Jesus, then you reject eternal life.
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby HitRed on Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:21 am

All the following include Jesus referring to himself as the gateway.

I am the one true way to the Father. I am the gateway to Heaven.

I am the gateway, the key that unlocks Heaven for all that choose to seek the narrow way.

All must come to me in the end. I am the gateway to the Father in Heaven.

I come to bring all to my one Sacred Heart, the true gateway to my Father in Heaven.

I am the way that all must seek. I am the gateway to the Father in Heaven. No one goes to my Father except through the Son.

All must come through me. I am the gateway to the Father.


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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby jimboston on Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:54 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Your comments indicated that you do somewhat believe yourself to be judge.

You said Gandhi not being Christian made you question your faith. I was just following this to mean that you think Gandhi "should be" in heaven. So the question becomes then, do you trust yourself to make that call? Or even better, do you trust the priest to make that call?


I don’t think I am arbiter or whether or not Gandhi should be in Heaven.

I do think that he was, by nearly universal accounts, a “good” man. A who helped his people achieve independence and freedom from oppression by preaching peaceful methods. That’s a very laudable and Christ-like accomplishment.

More specifically though I DON’T think he’s entrance into Heaven should be determine solely upon the fact that he wasn’t Christian and didn’t believe Jesus was the One True Savior.

Why should he accept the religion of Europeans, when it was the Europeans (British) who were suppressing his people? His life was much more “Christian” in his actions than the leaders of Britain who professed themselves to be Christian but then acted towards the Indian people in a very “un-Christianlike” manner.

No?

DoomYoshi wrote:I don't think it is up for humans to decide the eternal destiny of other humans. However, it is up to you to decide. If you knowingly choose to reject Jesus, then you reject eternal life.


I agree I don’ think humans can/should pass eternal judgement on other humans.

I disagree that I am dooming myself to Hell because I ‘reject’ Christ. I don’t reject most of what the Bible states as the opinions of Christ and I accept what is stated as his teachings.... that we should (in general) love and be kind to our fellow humans. I just feel God (if there is a God) will give me a pass on disbelieving in Jesus if I am otherwise a mostly good person.
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby jimboston on Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:58 pm

HitRed wrote:All the following include Jesus referring to himself as the gateway.

I am the one true way to the Father. I am the gateway to Heaven.

I am the gateway, the key that unlocks Heaven for all that choose to seek the narrow way.

All must come to me in the end. I am the gateway to the Father in Heaven.

I come to bring all to my one Sacred Heart, the true gateway to my Father in Heaven.

I am the way that all must seek. I am the gateway to the Father in Heaven. No one goes to my Father except through the Son.

All must come through me. I am the gateway to the Father.

... and your point?

He’s THE gateway. You gotta go through him. He’s your connection to the Big Guy.

Are you saying that my statement about Catholic Doctrine is wrong?

(Please note that my summary of Catholic Doctrine is just that... a summary... but the essential point is made... you gotta be Christian to go to Heaven. Furthermore note that my own feelings are NOT the same as the summary of Catholic Doctrine that I am writing.)

... also none of you has talked about the evolution of the Church. Are you saying it won’t evolve or will it?

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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby HitRed on Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:22 pm

The Church does evolve. Latin Mass is (mostly) out. Native language is in.

New Religious Orders are cropping up as old ones die away.

Divine Mercy is much larger today than 30+ years ago.

Girls can be Alter Servers.

Eucharistic Minsters hand out the Eucharist and Precious Blood where I can remember only Priests could.

First Pope from the New World.

Just a few.
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby HitRed on Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:56 pm

Jesus on free will to choose


I accept the free will of humans to choose good or bad. I come to lead those willing to follow me willingly.

I would have all with me but I respect the human free will to choose.

There is a Hell and people really do go there of their own free will. I can only warn and tell how to avoid this unimaginable death.

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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:59 pm

jimboston wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Your comments indicated that you do somewhat believe yourself to be judge.

You said Gandhi not being Christian made you question your faith. I was just following this to mean that you think Gandhi "should be" in heaven. So the question becomes then, do you trust yourself to make that call? Or even better, do you trust the priest to make that call?


I don’t think I am arbiter or whether or not Gandhi should be in Heaven.

I do think that he was, by nearly universal accounts, a “good” man. A who helped his people achieve independence and freedom from oppression by preaching peaceful methods. That’s a very laudable and Christ-like accomplishment.


Yes, Gandhi is lovely, in terms of humanity. There is a core problem with how humans define goodness though. We always look down the scale. People justify their own sins by looking at a worse sinner and saying "at least I'm not a criminal in jail" and the criminal in jail says "at least I'm not Hitler" and then Hitler says "At least I'm not NomadPatriot" and so on, and so on, until you get to Satan. However, when you look "up" the scale, you start to realize the problem with our human perspective looking down the ladder. At the top is the one, true, wholly holy and purely good God. His presence cannot abide with evil or sin of any kind and unfortunately, as good as Gandhi might be, he isn't good enough to be in God's presence without perishing. He just can't measure up. Nobody can, and that's why Jesus came, to cover our sins and allow us into the presence of God.

More specifically though I DON’T think he’s entrance into Heaven should be determine solely upon the fact that he wasn’t Christian and didn’t believe Jesus was the One True Savior.


That's fine for you to disagree with a priest. Perhaps Jesus is on your side on this one. One of Gandhi's favorite passages in the Bible was the Sermon on the Mount, which ends with this invitation:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’




I disagree that I am dooming myself to Hell because I ‘reject’ Christ. I don’t reject most of what the Bible states as the opinions of Christ and I accept what is stated as his teachings.... that we should (in general) love and be kind to our fellow humans. I just feel God (if there is a God) will give me a pass on disbelieving in Jesus if I am otherwise a mostly good person.


Which parts specifically do you reject?
There is the idea of "good people getting rewarded" within scripture, but it is always "good people who seek God" not "good people who seek their own benefit".
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby mrswdk on Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:19 pm

jimboston wrote:The Catholic Church Doctrine dictates that you can only go to Heaven Through Jesus...


The head of the Catholic church (the 'Pope') says that you don't have to believe in god to go to heaven:

https://charterforcompassion.org/unders ... -to-heaven

inb4 jim "the pope can't control Catholics and therefore his statements are irrelevant"
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:29 pm

mrswdk wrote:
jimboston wrote:The Catholic Church Doctrine dictates that you can only go to Heaven Through Jesus...


The head of the Catholic church (the 'Pope') says that you don't have to believe in god to go to heaven:

https://charterforcompassion.org/unders ... -to-heaven

inb4 jim "the pope can't control Catholics and therefore his statements are irrelevant"


So some atheist Italian journalist with a penchant for controversy surrounding the pope is now the source of Catholic doctrine?
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby HitRed on Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:32 pm

Everyone must go through me to reach the Father of all.
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:34 pm

HitRed wrote:Jesus on free will to choose


I accept the free will of humans to choose good or bad. I come to lead those willing to follow me willingly.

I would have all with me but I respect the human free will to choose.

There is a Hell and people really do go there of their own free will. I can only warn and tell how to avoid this unimaginable death.



Source?
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby HitRed on Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:47 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:
HitRed wrote:Jesus on free will to choose


I accept the free will of humans to choose good or bad. I come to lead those willing to follow me willingly.

I would have all with me but I respect the human free will to choose.

There is a Hell and people really do go there of their own free will. I can only warn and tell how to avoid this unimaginable death.



Source?


God
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Re: What happens to organized religion...

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:49 pm

HitRed wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
HitRed wrote:Jesus on free will to choose


I accept the free will of humans to choose good or bad. I come to lead those willing to follow me willingly.

I would have all with me but I respect the human free will to choose.

There is a Hell and people really do go there of their own free will. I can only warn and tell how to avoid this unimaginable death.



Source?


God

You gave this a quote mark. Where is it a quote from?
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