Adam and Eve

[mr. incrediball]

woman are good thay tempted adam to sin and i love sin lets all go party

worst. post. evar.

[joecoolfrog]

My next question is why have Christians endlessly persecuted Jews , who the Old Testament says are Gods chosen children

What are you talking about?




And no, Jews are the real Jews.

History - The real stuff

Christians aren't the only ones, and have not always persecuted them. Ever heard of Mohammed? He executed some because they would not recognize him as a prophet. The Byzantine Empire was quite open for many people, until the Turks over ran it and slaughtered people. Also, the Babylonian Captivity (I believe), where the Jews were exiled (for the most part) from Israel.

By the way, I am not trying to turn this against Muslims, just saying that they have had a fair share in their own persecutions.

You are absolutely right of course and Muslims and Hindus have been slaughtering each other in India for centuries. I for one was first repelled from the concept of religion because of the appalling loss of life between the various factions claiming to be the real children of God. However this thread is about Adam and Eve, which is part of Christian/Judaic tradition not Islamic so Muslims or other faiths are not relevant. Despite the childish nonsense that Jay writes,the early Christians were of course Jews and Christianity started as an ofshoot of Judaism, the only real bone of contention was whether Jesus was the true messiah or not. The Old Testament had foretold that a saviour would emerge at the end of days which would follow the return of Elijah, he would then herald the arrival of the son of God. Because this had not happened most Jews naturally rejected this new sect,ironically the Christian response was that the Writings of the Torah (Old Testament ) were being taken too literaly !
Over time this disagreement between 2 branches of the same faith became intolerable and the Christians distanced themselves from much of the traditional teachings and Christianity evolved as a religion in its own right,from that moment Christian scholars sought to undermine and slander Judaism. No doubt this venom was returned with interest by the Jews but as we all know history recognises the victors and within 500 years Christian thought had very much gotten the upper hand. Had the Jews however recieved the patronage of the Greeks and Romans then things would be very different indeed,for better or worse who knows !
This antagonism though was the start of 2000 years of persecution against the Jews, most notably during the Inquisitions of the Middle ages,the programs in Eastern Europe during the 19th century and of course the Holecaust.
Anyhow getting back to Adam and Eve and the literal interpretation of the Old testament stories, if the very existence of Christianity was dependent on rejecting the conventional telling of the coming of the Messiah then it is simply not possible for fundamentalists to argue that Christians should accept the bible as completely factual. Simply stated it is impossible to accept everything the Old Testament says and at the same time recognise Jesus as the true Messiah,ie to be a Christian.

[griffin_slayer]

You are absolutely right of course and Muslims and Hindus have been slaughtering each other in India for centuries. I for one was first repelled from the concept of religion because of the appalling loss of life between the various factions claiming to be the real children of God. However this thread is about Adam and Eve, which is part of Christian/Judaic tradition not Islamic so Muslims or other faiths are not relevant. Despite the childish nonsense that Jay writes,the early Christians were of course Jews and Christianity started as an ofshoot of Judaism, the only real bone of contention was whether Jesus was the true messiah or not. The Old Testament had foretold that a saviour would emerge at the end of days which would follow the return of Elijah, he would then herald the arrival of the son of God. Because this had not happened most Jews naturally rejected this new sect,ironically the Christian response was that the Writings of the Torah (Old Testament ) were being taken too literaly !
Over time this disagreement between 2 branches of the same faith became intolerable and the Christians distanced themselves from much of the traditional teachings and Christianity evolved as a religion in its own right,from that moment Christian scholars sought to undermine and slander Judaism. No doubt this venom was returned with interest by the Jews but as we all know history recognises the victors and within 500 years Christian thought had very much gotten the upper hand. Had the Jews however recieved the patronage of the Greeks and Romans then things would be very different indeed,for better or worse who knows !
This antagonism though was the start of 2000 years of persecution against the Jews, most notably during the Inquisitions of the Middle ages,the programs in Eastern Europe during the 19th century and of course the Holecaust.
Anyhow getting back to Adam and Eve and the literal interpretation of the Old testament stories, if the very existence of Christianity was dependent on rejecting the conventional telling of the coming of the Messiah then it is simply not possible for fundamentalists to argue that Christians should accept the bible as completely factual. Simply stated it is impossible to accept everything the Old Testament says and at the same time recognise Jesus as the true Messiah,ie to be a Christian.

read the book of isaiah.

[Nephilim]

i think this is mostly a very good post, joe. it appears you know the answer to your question about Xtn persecution of jews, so i'm wondering why you asked (presumably to get jay riled up, so bully to you, i say). i'll give my answer, which is a lot like yours but in different words. nominal "Xtns" (and probably everyone else) have persecuted jews (and probably everyone else) b/c there was money to be made or power to be gained. that's it. and your question asks, "why have Xtns done this when jews are supposed to be god's children?" well, just b/c a person, empire, whatever claims Xty, that doesn't mean they will actually be non-violent and loving (*cough* george bush). and of course, like you said, christian supersessionism allows the belief in the superiority of Xty or the replacement of jews/judaism by Xtns/Xty....

the only problem i have w/ your post is the last few phrases. there's no logical connection between the differences in messianic expectations between early Xtns and jews, and the literalist readings of contemporary fundamentalists. the way that Xtns have traditionally used the hebrew bible is to read jesus into messianic passages, and even applying passages that no one considered messianic to this jesus guy, as a way of supporting the church's messianic claims about him. in this way one can "accept" everything the OT says and still claim jesus as messiah. another important part of this was stated earlier by someone: several NT writers and later Xtn theologians understand Xtns as the true Israel/Jews. nice thread, tho, overall i certainly agree that literalism has caused lots of problems

[Nephilim]

oh ya and adam and eve are part of the muslim tradition

[joecoolfrog]

Nephilim

Pleasure to have a reasoned debate, as you had deducted so sagely I have no gripe with Christians,simply with narrow minded bigots such as Jay. Im sure you are right about Islam having connections with the Old Testament,my knowledge of the Koran is negligable im afraid, spot on also that much of the conflict has more to do with power than scripture.

[joecoolfrog]

You are absolutely right of course and Muslims and Hindus have been slaughtering each other in India for centuries. I for one was first repelled from the concept of religion because of the appalling loss of life between the various factions claiming to be the real children of God. However this thread is about Adam and Eve, which is part of Christian/Judaic tradition not Islamic so Muslims or other faiths are not relevant. Despite the childish nonsense that Jay writes,the early Christians were of course Jews and Christianity started as an ofshoot of Judaism, the only real bone of contention was whether Jesus was the true messiah or not. The Old Testament had foretold that a saviour would emerge at the end of days which would follow the return of Elijah, he would then herald the arrival of the son of God. Because this had not happened most Jews naturally rejected this new sect,ironically the Christian response was that the Writings of the Torah (Old Testament ) were being taken too literaly !
Over time this disagreement between 2 branches of the same faith became intolerable and the Christians distanced themselves from much of the traditional teachings and Christianity evolved as a religion in its own right,from that moment Christian scholars sought to undermine and slander Judaism. No doubt this venom was returned with interest by the Jews but as we all know history recognises the victors and within 500 years Christian thought had very much gotten the upper hand. Had the Jews however recieved the patronage of the Greeks and Romans then things would be very different indeed,for better or worse who knows !
This antagonism though was the start of 2000 years of persecution against the Jews, most notably during the Inquisitions of the Middle ages,the programs in Eastern Europe during the 19th century and of course the Holecaust.
Anyhow getting back to Adam and Eve and the literal interpretation of the Old testament stories, if the very existence of Christianity was dependent on rejecting the conventional telling of the coming of the Messiah then it is simply not possible for fundamentalists to argue that Christians should accept the bible as completely factual. Simply stated it is impossible to accept everything the Old Testament says and at the same time recognise Jesus as the true Messiah,ie to be a Christian.

read the book of isaiah.

Can you not just paraphrase and explain what part of my post you disagree with

[happy2seeyou]

Soooo what was the question again? A few people are trailing off. Was this thread created for real questions or to bash?

[The1exile]

Soooo what was the question again? A few people are trailing off. Was this thread created for real questions or to bash?

"Do you believe it literally" and "what happened next?"

[MeDeFe]

I just thought of something, there was at least one more male around beside Adam. And later on he has a kid, so he's probably not impotent either.

[Simonov]

So there was Adam and Eve and they begat Cane and Abel ( 2 boys !!! )
and what happened next ?
Oh and who married Adam and Eve,surely the offspring were not illegitimate

my take on this one: if u want to take bible into account you must note that it's written allegorically, you cannot consider everything what is written there to actually happened. i find it hard to believe that anyone takes bible literally.