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How is what Jesus did different than 'suicide by cop'

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Re: How is what Jesus did different than 'suicide by cop'

Postby mybike_yourface on Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:57 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:
mybike_yourface wrote:jesus died for his own sins, not mine.


I won't bite on the bait of the "his sins" part, but IF Jesus did not die for your sins, that is by your choice, not his; you could change that anytime. You're invited; it's great!


i wasn't born into sin. that's your religions horrible notion. how could a person even die to pay for anothers sins? it's absurd. how could i be responsible for the misdeeds of adam and eve? and if it's not their original sin who's burden i bear, why would god make me unholy or defective to start with anyway?

the idea doesn't even exist in Jewish theology. it's a just another guilt trip developed from the early church fathers. it started with the lovely idea that unbaptized infants go to hell because of original sin.
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Re: How is what Jesus did different than 'suicide by cop'

Postby CrazyAnglican on Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:04 pm

mybike_yourface wrote: i wasn't born into sin. that's your religions horrible notion.


So when you were born you perfectly knew right from wrong and needed no instruction to begin making those choices? There are few more selfish creatures than an infant. They need to be selfish to survive. If sin is generally selfish then people are born into that state regardless of what you choose to call it.
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Re: How is what Jesus did different than 'suicide by cop'

Postby mybike_yourface on Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:06 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:
mybike_yourface wrote: i wasn't born into sin. that's your religions horrible notion.


So when you were born you perfectly knew right from wrong and needed no instruction to begin making those choices? There are few more selfish creatures than an infant. They need to be selfish to survive. If sin is generally selfish then people are born into that state regardless of what you choose to call it.


does your god create his follwers damaged from the start? do infants go to hell when they die since they're born in sin?
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Re: How is what Jesus did different than 'suicide by cop'

Postby Norse on Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:08 pm

mybike_yourface wrote:
i wasn't born into sin. that's your religions horrible notion


Beautifully put.

I appreciate that.
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Re: How is what Jesus did different than 'suicide by cop'

Postby CrazyAnglican on Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:14 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:
mybike_yourface wrote: i wasn't born into sin. that's your religions horrible notion.


So when you were born you perfectly knew right from wrong and needed no instruction to begin making those choices? There are few more selfish creatures than an infant. They need to be selfish to survive. If sin is generally selfish then people are born into that state regardless of what you choose to call it.


mybike_yourface wrote:does your god create his follwers damaged from the start?


Remember, I said they have to be to survive. To an extent that sinful nature is an asset to begin with in this world. According to our beliefs no he doesn't create us that way. We as a race are responsible for our state through past sins. You can reject that it's your right, but it doesn't change the observation that a two hundred and fifty pound baby would be a dangerous individual if you didn't immediately meet his needs.

mybike_yourface wrote:do infants go to hell when they die since they're born in sin?


I'm not really qualified to say who goes to Hell, sorry. Some decisions are made above my pay grade. :wink:
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Postby Norse on Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:20 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:I'm not really qualified to say who goes to Hell, sorry. Some decisions are made above my pay grade.

So, what salary is god on?
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Re: How is what Jesus did different than 'suicide by cop'

Postby mybike_yourface on Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:28 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:
mybike_yourface wrote: i wasn't born into sin. that's your religions horrible notion.


So when you were born you perfectly knew right from wrong and needed no instruction to begin making those choices? There are few more selfish creatures than an infant. They need to be selfish to survive. If sin is generally selfish then people are born into that state regardless of what you choose to call it.


mybike_yourface wrote:does your god create his follwers damaged from the start?


Remember, I said they have to be to survive. To an extent that sinful nature is an asset to begin with in this world. According to our beliefs no he doesn't create us that way. We as a race are responsible for our state through past sins. You can reject that it's your right, but it doesn't change the observation that a two hundred and fifty pound baby would be a dangerous individual if you didn't immediately meet his needs.

mybike_yourface wrote:do infants go to hell when they die since they're born in sin?


I'm not really qualified to say who goes to Hell, sorry. Some decisions are made above my pay grade. :wink:


like i just said before, and once again we end up in one of those circular christian arguments. and again it's humanity's fault. god created us the way we are, set up all the pitfalls, knew how we would react, knew what would happen. yet it's still our fault. it's such a guilty masochistic religion.

can't a baby just be a baby? why do they have to be little bags of sin just waiting to be saved?
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Postby mybike_yourface on Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:30 pm

Norse wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:I'm not really qualified to say who goes to Hell, sorry. Some decisions are made above my pay grade.

So, what salary is god on?


yeah that's a great way to think of it. it's all top down and he's the ceo of the universe. just the lord i want. of course the bible tells us that we're His servants, women are men's servents and we're all authoritys servents.
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Postby Norse on Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:35 pm

mybike_yourface wrote:
Norse wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:I'm not really qualified to say who goes to Hell, sorry. Some decisions are made above my pay grade.

So, what salary is god on?


yeah that's a great way to think of it. it's all top down and he's the ceo of the universe. just the lord i want. of course the bible tells us that we're His servants, women are men's servents and we're all authoritys servents.


Sounds like a victorian business enterprise to me...

a little dated...
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Re: How is what Jesus did different than 'suicide by cop'

Postby mybike_yourface on Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:46 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:
mybike_yourface wrote: i wasn't born into sin. that's your religions horrible notion.


So when you were born you perfectly knew right from wrong and needed no instruction to begin making those choices? There are few more selfish creatures than an infant. They need to be selfish to survive. If sin is generally selfish then people are born into that state regardless of what you choose to call it.


Leviticus 12:6-8 (Vayikra 12:6-8)
When the days of her purification are fulfilled, whether for a son or a daughter, she shall bring to the priest a lamb within its first year as a burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtledove as a sin offering, to the door of the Tent of Meeting.
Then he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her. And she shall be purified from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who has borne a male or a female.
But if she cannot afford a lamb, then she may bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons...

Luke 2:24
and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of the Lord: "A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons."

i think my mom missed this part. sounds like that catholic batism i had wasn't enough. eternal damnation because of something i never did, oh no!!!
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:25 pm

Norse wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:I'm not really qualified to say who goes to Hell, sorry. Some decisions are made above my pay grade.

So, what salary is god on?


It was actually a bit of a metaphor, but "above mine" is probably the simplest answer.
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:27 pm

Norse wrote:Sounds like a victorian business enterprise to me...

a little dated...


Well, the Church itself certainly is a classic :wink:
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Re: How is what Jesus did different than 'suicide by cop'

Postby CrazyAnglican on Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:36 pm

mybike_yourface wrote:like i just said before, and once again we end up in one of those circular christian arguments. and again it's humanity's fault. god created us the way we are, set up all the pitfalls, knew how we would react, knew what would happen. yet it's still our fault. it's such a guilty masochistic religion.


Well it takes two to make an argument. If this is circular then we share the responsibility for it, but it's not really circular at all. I choose take upon myself my own misdeeds. I acknowledge them and ask forgiveness for them. If there is no God then there is no problem. I'm behaving in a way that I would otherwise. If there is a God, the fact that I'm imperfect is no reflection on him as he has provided a way for me to be redeemed.

mybike_yourface wrote:can't a baby just be a baby? why do they have to be little bags of sin just waiting to be saved?


So..um..children aren't to be nurtured, cherished, and cared for? Hmm. I disagree.

mybike_yourface wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:
mybike_yourface wrote: i wasn't born into sin. that's your religions horrible notion.


So when you were born you perfectly knew right from wrong and needed no instruction to begin making those choices? There are few more selfish creatures than an infant. They need to be selfish to survive. If sin is generally selfish then people are born into that state regardless of what you choose to call it.


Leviticus 12:6-8 (Vayikra 12:6-8)
When the days of her purification are fulfilled, whether for a son or a daughter, she shall bring to the priest a lamb within its first year as a burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtledove as a sin offering, to the door of the Tent of Meeting.
Then he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her. And she shall be purified from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who has borne a male or a female.
But if she cannot afford a lamb, then she may bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons...

Luke 2:24
and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of the Lord: "A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons."

i think my mom missed this part. sounds like that catholic batism i had wasn't enough. eternal damnation because of something i never did, oh no!!!


Your safe the offering was for your Mom not you :wink: and as long as she's said the Lord's Prayer since then she's okay too.
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Re: How is what Jesus did different than 'suicide by cop'

Postby mybike_yourface on Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:43 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:
mybike_yourface wrote:like i just said before, and once again we end up in one of those circular christian arguments. and again it's humanity's fault. god created us the way we are, set up all the pitfalls, knew how we would react, knew what would happen. yet it's still our fault. it's such a guilty masochistic religion.


Well it takes two to make an argument. If this is circular then we share the responsibility for it, but it's not really circular at all. I choose take upon myself my own misdeeds. I acknowledge them and ask forgiveness for them. If there is no God then there is no problem. I'm behaving in a way that I would otherwise. If there is a God, the fact that I'm imperfect is no reflection on him as he has provided a way for me to be redeemed.

mybike_yourface wrote:can't a baby just be a baby? why do they have to be little bags of sin just waiting to be saved?


So..um..children aren't to be nurtured, cherished, and cared for? Hmm. I disagree.

mybike_yourface wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:
mybike_yourface wrote: i wasn't born into sin. that's your religions horrible notion.


So when you were born you perfectly knew right from wrong and needed no instruction to begin making those choices? There are few more selfish creatures than an infant. They need to be selfish to survive. If sin is generally selfish then people are born into that state regardless of what you choose to call it.


Leviticus 12:6-8 (Vayikra 12:6-8)
When the days of her purification are fulfilled, whether for a son or a daughter, she shall bring to the priest a lamb within its first year as a burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtledove as a sin offering, to the door of the Tent of Meeting.
Then he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her. And she shall be purified from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who has borne a male or a female.
But if she cannot afford a lamb, then she may bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons...

Luke 2:24
and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of the Lord: "A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons."

i think my mom missed this part. sounds like that catholic batism i had wasn't enough. eternal damnation because of something i never did, oh no!!!


Your safe the offering was for your Mom not you :wink: and as long as she's said the Lord's Prayer since then she's okay too.


how is original sin your misdeed?

oh course children should be cared for. that's not what i'm talking about.

why would my mother need to sacrifice a lamb after giving birth? why don't christians still do it?
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Re: How is what Jesus did different than 'suicide by cop'

Postby CrazyAnglican on Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:08 pm

mybike_yourface wrote:how is original sin your misdeed?


It's an observation that sets us apart from many other religions. There are many ways to look at children, but here are three of the most common:

1) Tabula Rasa: They are blank little slates ready for us to write our own ideas on them and they will perfectly and willingly swallow whatever we shove at them. (Check the "Should children be fed religion" thread and you'll see this idea among some)

2) Born innocent and corrupted by the world. The idea here is that people are okay at their core. Evil is a choice made by those capable of choosing. The underlying assumption here is that man can, by his own effort, reach (or reattain) some kind of perfection. People who ascribe to this tend to see a natural state as being good. The Romantics, in British Literature, in some ways exemplify this idea.

3) Born corrupt in a corrupt world. This is only the idea that people are not born good. They need assistance to learn good behaviors. I think this position is born out by observation. I've got three kids myself; I love them dearly, but I'm in no way convinced that they are perfect. :wink:

mybike_yourface wrote:oh course children should be cared for. that's not what i'm talking about.


Okay what are you talking about? I believe sincerely, as as parent, that it's my job to expose my kids to everything that is instructive and beneficial in my life. My religion is one of those things.

mybike_yourface wrote:why would my mother need to sacrifice a lamb after giving birth? why don't christians still do it?


I don't know (I believe it has to do with ritual uncleanliness). Probably because most of us don't know either, and we can ask forgiveness for our sins and ignorance and still get along ok. I don't burn witches, or stone homosexuals either; The New Testament lets us off the hook on a lot of that stuff.
Last edited by CrazyAnglican on Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Norse on Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:09 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:
Norse wrote:Sounds like a victorian business enterprise to me...

a little dated...


Well, the Church itself certainly is a classic :wink:


Oh right, I forgot that lexus created the new "hybrid" horse and cart...

Or do you just pick and choose frivilously what you decide to modernise?
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:16 pm

Norse wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:
Norse wrote:Sounds like a victorian business enterprise to me...

a little dated...


Well, the Church itself certainly is a classic :wink:


Oh right, I forgot that lexus created the new "hybrid" horse and cart...

Or do you just pick and choose frivilously what you decide to modernise?


No! We've got these things called committees! They get together and actually think about and discuss things. It's cool you should check them out (We'll bring the doughnuts). They are a much better option than the only two you seem to be aware of. :wink:
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Postby Norse on Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:21 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:
Norse wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:
Norse wrote:Sounds like a victorian business enterprise to me...

a little dated...


Well, the Church itself certainly is a classic :wink:


Oh right, I forgot that lexus created the new "hybrid" horse and cart...

Or do you just pick and choose frivilously what you decide to modernise?


No! We've got these things called committees! They get together and actually think about and discuss things. It's cool you should check them out (We'll bring the doughnuts). They are a much better option than the only two you seem to be aware of. :wink:


Nah, i'll just stick to my own "commitees" thanks. At my ones, I drink loads of beer, and plan (with my buddies) setting fire to churches and stuff.

It's really cool, you would like it.
b.k. barunt wrote:Snorri's like one of those fufu dogs who get all excited and dance around pissing on themself.

suggs wrote:scared off by all the pervs and wankers already? No? Then let me introduce myself, I'm Mr Pervy Wank.
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:24 pm

Norse wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:
Norse wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:
Norse wrote:Sounds like a victorian business enterprise to me...

a little dated...


Well, the Church itself certainly is a classic :wink:


Oh right, I forgot that lexus created the new "hybrid" horse and cart...

Or do you just pick and choose frivilously what you decide to modernise?


No! We've got these things called committees! They get together and actually think about and discuss things. It's cool you should check them out (We'll bring the doughnuts). They are a much better option than the only two you seem to be aware of. :wink:


Nah, i'll just stick to my own "commitees" thanks. At my ones, I drink loads of beer, and plan (with my buddies) setting fire to churches and stuff.

It's really cool, you would like it.


Hey I'm with ya' on the beer part :lol:

We'll set up a fund for those churches.
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Postby Norse on Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:26 pm

Good work. Nice to see we're all "chipping in".
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suggs wrote:scared off by all the pervs and wankers already? No? Then let me introduce myself, I'm Mr Pervy Wank.
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:27 pm

Norse wrote:Good work. Nice to see we're all "chipping in".


Every little bit helps :wink:
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