USA land of liberty

[jimboston]

Walk down Oxford Street, from the Marble Arch to Regent Street.
Then tell me I’m wrong.

[jimboston]

Also… love how you all try to switch up the argument.
Start a new thread if you want to continue discussing the Fall of the UK.

This thread is about how the USA has a legal right to deport non-citizens with revoked Visas.

[bigtoughralf]

Starts irrelevant discussion about UK, realises he's making himself sound like an idiot, demands the irrelevant discussion stops immediately.

[mookiemcgee]

I saw very few UK flags other than those at official gov’t buildings and tourist places, and in souvenir shops.

Nationalism has had a fairly bad rep in Western Europe ever since that German guy with the funny moustache. You won't find many flags being flown outside of a sporting context.

She was deported because her Visa was revoked.

And her visa was revoked in response to her exercising her First Amendment right to protest. Are you comfortable with the US Government punishing people for engaging in peaceful protest?

Not exactly something new here...

[jimboston]

Starts irrelevant discussion about UK, realises he's making himself sound like an idiot, demands the irrelevant discussion stops immediately.

Actually I was pointing out how it’s funny that a guy from a country that doesn’t have Constitutionally Protected Free Speech is criticizing MY country that does.

… meanwhile… he’s not even making the argument that the Free Speech was violated because he doesn’t seem to understand how Visas work.

I am happy to discuss the downfall of the UK in more detail in another thread. It was just that you were trying to derail the discussion because it was becoming obvious you couldn’t back up your OP.

[Dukasaur]

You seem confused.

The UK is 82% white. 75% white British. The other 7% will be eastern european. 9% Asian. 4% Black.

little New Palestine indeed.

What are the stats for London proper?
I’m sure in the city they start to move in the direction suggested.

Add 20 years with breeding and immigration rates… then see what I’m talking about.
I didn’t say it would happen tomorrow… but you are already ceding your country.
Keep sitting on your hands and letting it happen.

I'm really surprised at you. That's the kind of comment I would have expected from the ram, not from you.

Migration is the creative spark that drives great moments in human progress. The Bronze Age began with humans fleeing Central Asia as the climate became too dry to support Neolithic agriculture. Carthage started with refugees fleeing Tyre, probably from Assyrian invasions. The sudden rise of the Dutch Empire was triggered by Huguenots fleeing France. America was started by refugees from a variety of religious and secular wars in Europe. The miracle of Taiwan is the result of refugees fleeing Communists in China. Just to name a tiny number of hundreds of possible examples.

Migration is a genetic sieve. The brightest and most ambitious move and interbreed with new populations; the lazy and complacent stay home, become inbred, and fade into obscurity.

London's polyglot population is far more likely to lead to a new Golden Age than to anything negative.

[jimboston]

I'm really surprised at you. That's the kind of comment I would have expected from the ram, not from you.

Migration is the creative spark that drives great moments in human progress. The Bronze Age began with humans fleeing Central Asia as the climate became too dry to support Neolithic agriculture. Carthage started with refugees fleeing Tyre, probably from Assyrian invasions. The sudden rise of the Dutch Empire was triggered by Huguenots fleeing France. America was started by refugees from a variety of religious and secular wars in Europe. The miracle of Taiwan is the result of refugees fleeing Communists in China. Just to name a tiny number of hundreds of possible examples.

Migration is a genetic sieve. The brightest and most ambitious move and interbreed with new populations; the lazy and complacent stay home, become inbred, and fade into obscurity.

London's polyglot population is far more likely to lead to a new Golden Age than to anything negative.

So I wrote a whole essay to reply and then deleted it because it was too long and convoluted and didn’t get to the point. Here’s my second attempt… in which I am trying to get to the crux of my issue/problem in a more concise and clearer manner. I hope it’s successful.

So Ralf is portraying my issue with Muslim migration as a racial one. It’s not… it IS a cultural / integration issue. I do NOT think the immigration issues in the USA are identical to those being experienced by the UK and Europe. As I have stated in other threads I am married to an immigrant (Filipina, which some may call a “brown person” or some may call “Asian”)… I am sure I have my biases but I don’t believe I am racist.

I have no problem with legal immigrants in the US who come here to better themselves and work hard. I don’t care if they are Asian, or Indian, or Mexican, or from Central/South America. In my personal experience I find most of the immigrants I interact with are good/hardworking people who want a better life for themselves and their children. I do think it’s a fact that some immigrant populations do “breed” faster than upper middle and middle class native US citizens… and I do believe that “white/European” Americans will likely not be a majority in 20 years. I have no problem with this. My children and grandchildren will be part of that group.

My experience is that these groups have more core cultural overlap with our core “American” or “Western” values. In some cases there are shared religions… most Central and South Americans are Christian and have basic “Christian Values”. Chinese and Indians do not necessarily have a common religion, but other values like community and hard work are shared… and their religions (if they have any) don’t have serious conflicts with our traditional values.

My problem or concern is with Muslim immigrants in as much that… based on what I have seen and read… I FEAR that many have core values that DO NOT overlap with our core values. I am SURE this is NOT universal amongst ALL Muslim migrants. I am sure there are many moderates. It’s just that the loudest and boldest seem to have issues with core “Western” values… and it “FEELS” that these extreme views are a significant percentage of those migrants. Or in some cases the actual migrants are moderate, but the 1st generation are more susceptible to extremist influence and indoctrination. OBVIOUSLY I do not have exact numbers or percentages… NO ONE DOES… so much of what I think is based on feelings and perceived threats.

PERHAPS I WATCH TO MANY YOUTUBE VIDEOS?

That said, I do make an effort to consume media from both sides of the spectrum.

I also have had some personal interactions with muslim immigrants who at first appeared moderate, but later some of their views became apparent to me personally based on direct conversation and interaction. These are anecdotal, but combined with other stuff I read or watch will obviously inform my views.

What I’m talking about that feels different from other migrant groups…
*Wanting to implement Shariah Law as an alternate Law within a Western State, at first for their own people.
(This happens currently “underground”… it’s not unique to Muslim people… Italians (The Mafia) in big Eastern Cities often had their Street Law and Street Tax in some communities in the US.)
*Staying within their community… all immigrant groups do this to some degree, but the degree to which Muslims do it seems more significant and more ‘intense’. This slows or limits integration (and acceptance).
*Disrespect for other religions or even worse people without formal religions.
(Again all religions to some degree claim to be THE RIGHT religion… but it feels more extreme.)
*Using Western Values to insist Westerns “Accept” their views… but then denying that respect for our views.
*Views on the role of women in society that a fundamental opposed to current Western values.

Maybe some will say there’s no difference between me having an issue with “Muslim Culture” and being “Racist”.

I argue that culture is NOT genetic and can be changed… and also that frankly some cultures are objectively BETTER than other cultures. An extreme example would be Mayan culture… they worshipped a God that required Human sacrifice. I think we can safely say that Modern Western Culture is BETTER than Ancient Mayan Culture. A less extreme but current example would be the role of women…. I think you would agree that the view of women in Modern Western Culture (which treats them as equal under the law) is BETTER than the view of women in Strict Muslim Culture (which looks at them as property of their fathers… then husbands).

So that’s it… still long… sorry.

[bigtoughralf]

Starts irrelevant discussion about UK, realises he's making himself sound like an idiot, demands the irrelevant discussion stops immediately.

Actually I was pointing out how it’s funny that a guy from a country that doesn’t have Constitutionally Protected Free Speech is criticizing MY country that does.

If the government is retaliating and punishing people for exercising their right to free speech then it isn't protected, is it?

[bigtoughralf]

So Ralf is portraying my issue with Muslim migration as a racial one.

lmao no one's even mentioned Muslims in this thread yet?? Your mask is slipping.

I do think it’s a fact that some immigrant populations do “breed” faster than upper middle and middle class native US citizens… and I do believe that “white/European” Americans will likely not be a majority in 20 years. I have no problem with this.

You don't think it's a problem, but you also think it's an existential threat to the UK.

Your views on Islam sounds like they come exclusively from a cartoon, or FOX News.

[jusplay4fun]

I saw very few UK flags other than those at official gov’t buildings and tourist places, and in souvenir shops.

Nationalism has had a fairly bad rep in Western Europe ever since that German guy with the funny moustache. You won't find many flags being flown outside of a sporting context.

She was deported because her Visa was revoked.

And her visa was revoked in response to her exercising her First Amendment right to protest. Are you comfortable with the US Government punishing people for engaging in peaceful protest?

Not exactly something new here...

That is a terrible analogy, Mookie. You know better and I am disappointed in your HYPERBOLE and your embellishment to try to link the expulsion of one foreign student to KILLING FOUR students (and wounding 9 more). That is like comparing one copper** penny to 4 gold bars. And NO, the nationality or ethnicities of the persons involved is not the reason for the analogy.

**actually it is mostly zinc, 97.5%, since about 1984

Unit conversion for Zinc Price Today
Conversion Zinc Price Price
1 Ton = 1,000 Kilograms Zinc Price Per 1 Kilogram 2.61 USD
https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/zinc-price

Gold Price Per Kilo $98,503.38 USD

https://www.apmex.com/gold-price

bottom line: $2.51 vs $98,503.38

[2dimes]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_Kingdom

Britons are subjects of HMTK, not citizens.

Have you heard the English national anthem?

Possibly including John Lydon, who refused to be a subject of his mom.

[mookiemcgee]

bottom line: $2.51 vs $98,503.38

Jusplay calculating how much more a US made iphone will cost?

[bigtoughralf]

And now it's been made explicit: if you criticise Israel or support Palestine, the US Government will cancel your visa!

http://www.rte.ie/news/world/2025/0409/ ... -media-us/

I guess when you deliberately alienate every other country in the world you end up being mega-cucked by the only one that still likes you (Israel).

Maybe CC should start deleting all content relating to Palestine, criticising Trump etc now before BigWham ends up in the gulag?

[jimboston]

Starts irrelevant discussion about UK, realises he's making himself sound like an idiot, demands the irrelevant discussion stops immediately.

Actually I was pointing out how it’s funny that a guy from a country that doesn’t have Constitutionally Protected Free Speech is criticizing MY country that does.

If the government is retaliating and punishing people for exercising their right to free speech then it isn't protected, is it?

Sure… where did this happen?

[jimboston]

And now it's been made explicit: if you criticise Israel or support Palestine, the US Government will cancel your visa!

http://www.rte.ie/news/world/2025/0409/ ... -media-us/

I guess when you deliberately alienate every other country in the world you end up being mega-cucked by the only one that still likes you (Israel).

Maybe CC should start deleting all content relating to Palestine, criticising Trump etc now before BigWham ends up in the gulag?

from the linked article..

“Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem "has made it clear that anyone who thinks they can come to America and hide behind the First Amendment to advocate for anti-Semitic violence and terrorism - think again. You are not welcome here," department spokeswoman Tricia McLaughlin said in a statement.”

Sounds reasonably to me.

No foreign national has a “right” to a visa.

[jimboston]

So Ralf is portraying my issue with Muslim migration as a racial one.

lmao no one's even mentioned Muslims in this thread yet?? Your mask is slipping.

I do think it’s a fact that some immigrant populations do “breed” faster than upper middle and middle class native US citizens… and I do believe that “white/European” Americans will likely not be a majority in 20 years. I have no problem with this.

You don't think it's a problem, but you also think it's an existential threat to the UK.

Your views on Islam sounds like they come exclusively from a cartoon, or FOX News.

I truly don’t care what you think. Duk is a more moderate voice and I am interested in seeing his reply.
You can f*ck off.

I consume considerably more Slate and NPR content then I do from sources like Fox or Turning Point.

[ConfederateSS]

And now it's been made explicit: if you criticise Israel or support Palestine, the US Government will cancel your visa!

http://www.rte.ie/news/world/2025/0409/ ... -media-us/

I guess when you deliberately alienate every other country in the world you end up being mega-cucked by the only one that still likes you (Israel).

Maybe CC should start deleting all content relating to Palestine, criticising Trump etc now before BigWham ends up in the gulag?

from the linked article..

“Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem "has made it clear that anyone who thinks they can come to America and hide behind the First Amendment to advocate for anti-Semitic violence and terrorism - think again. You are not welcome here," department spokeswoman Tricia McLaughlin said in a statement.”

Sounds reasonably to me.

No foreign national has a “right” to a visa.

---------Well, unless you have 5 million dollars.... ....The New America Gold Card....Path to Citizenship...
---------The deportations.......But what about The Millions of Illegal Alien children.....Biden let in....That have disappeared into the United States landscape ..... Girls as sex slaves....Boys as labor slaves...No one knows what happened to them....I think for them...Deportation , would be a blessing.....If you can find them... ...That's sad...Sure you want those who came into the country Illegally...Deported...
---------- I know(think it was Duk), who said , what if some Illegal ended up in Montana...Unfortunately...The Cartel, is even in Montana...So you have Uncle Sam, deporting...But that will throw them right back into The Cartel's hands...Then the same old song and dance, will play itself out...... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...
--------------GULF of MEXICO ...

[bigtoughralf]

I truly don’t care what you think. Duk is a more moderate voice and I am interested in seeing his reply.
You can f*ck off.

And now it's 'extremist' to say that I don't think Muslims moving to the UK is a threat to the UK's existence

How do you feel about Muslims getting on the same bus as non-Muslims, jim?

[Dukasaur]

I'm really surprised at you. That's the kind of comment I would have expected from the ram, not from you.

Migration is the creative spark that drives great moments in human progress. The Bronze Age began with humans fleeing Central Asia as the climate became too dry to support Neolithic agriculture. Carthage started with refugees fleeing Tyre, probably from Assyrian invasions. The sudden rise of the Dutch Empire was triggered by Huguenots fleeing France. America was started by refugees from a variety of religious and secular wars in Europe. The miracle of Taiwan is the result of refugees fleeing Communists in China. Just to name a tiny number of hundreds of possible examples.

Migration is a genetic sieve. The brightest and most ambitious move and interbreed with new populations; the lazy and complacent stay home, become inbred, and fade into obscurity.

London's polyglot population is far more likely to lead to a new Golden Age than to anything negative.

So I wrote a whole essay to reply and then deleted it because it was too long and convoluted and didn’t get to the point. Here’s my second attempt… in which I am trying to get to the crux of my issue/problem in a more concise and clearer manner. I hope it’s successful.

So Ralf is portraying my issue with Muslim migration as a racial one. It’s not… it IS a cultural / integration issue. I do NOT think the immigration issues in the USA are identical to those being experienced by the UK and Europe. As I have stated in other threads I am married to an immigrant (Filipina, which some may call a “brown person” or some may call “Asian”)… I am sure I have my biases but I don’t believe I am racist.

I have no problem with legal immigrants in the US who come here to better themselves and work hard. I don’t care if they are Asian, or Indian, or Mexican, or from Central/South America. In my personal experience I find most of the immigrants I interact with are good/hardworking people who want a better life for themselves and their children. I do think it’s a fact that some immigrant populations do “breed” faster than upper middle and middle class native US citizens… and I do believe that “white/European” Americans will likely not be a majority in 20 years. I have no problem with this. My children and grandchildren will be part of that group.

My experience is that these groups have more core cultural overlap with our core “American” or “Western” values. In some cases there are shared religions… most Central and South Americans are Christian and have basic “Christian Values”. Chinese and Indians do not necessarily have a common religion, but other values like community and hard work are shared… and their religions (if they have any) don’t have serious conflicts with our traditional values.

My problem or concern is with Muslim immigrants in as much that… based on what I have seen and read… I FEAR that many have core values that DO NOT overlap with our core values. I am SURE this is NOT universal amongst ALL Muslim migrants. I am sure there are many moderates. It’s just that the loudest and boldest seem to have issues with core “Western” values… and it “FEELS” that these extreme views are a significant percentage of those migrants. Or in some cases the actual migrants are moderate, but the 1st generation are more susceptible to extremist influence and indoctrination. OBVIOUSLY I do not have exact numbers or percentages… NO ONE DOES… so much of what I think is based on feelings and perceived threats.

Well, you're not completely wrong. There are extremists and moderates in every religion, and I think the moderates of all religions can generally get along. It's the extremists that spoil the broth, and I do think it is generally accepted that there are more Islamic extremists than extremists of other religions. But that's a difference of degree, not of kind. Fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Hindus are every bit as intolerant as fundamentalist Muslims. They've just had slightly less impact on the modern world, and that's because of dilution among the moderate majorities they've had to live with.

We point to draconian punishments among theocratic Arab states and think, "How barbaric!" but it wasn't that long ago that we were burning heretics alive. And I don't mean in some long lost period ten thousand years ago, but as little as three or four hundred years ago. As little as 120 years ago, the "Christian" administration of the Congo was still mutilating workers who didn't make their quota.

We sneer about the fact that Saudi women just recently got the right to drive to the market without a male escort, but as recently as when my mother came to Canada, she couldn't open a bank account because a married woman couldn't open an account without signed permission from her husband.

So certainly, while our culture may have moved forward in tolerance and equity, it's a much more recent development that we might care to think.

Okay, what do we do while we wait for the Imams to catch up to Pope Francis in their degree of enlightenment? Do we have to wait 300 years for them to stop advocating the beheading of infidels? Luckily, I don't think it takes that long. I really think one generation is enough for a significant amount of moderation to set in, and two generations is enough for the old ways to disappear in all but name.

The nutjobs will always be around, but you can say that for every sect. The Reverend Jim Jones started his cult in the 1960s. Certainly he didn't lack access to Voltaire or John Stuart Mill at his public library. He just chose not to read them.

[jimboston]

I truly don’t care what you think. Duk is a more moderate voice and I am interested in seeing his reply.
You can f*ck off.

And now it's 'extremist' to say that I don't think Muslims moving to the UK is a threat to the UK's existence

No…. but I’m ignoring you now.

You keep repeating the same shit and refuse to acknowledge your failed OP.

[jimboston]

Well, you're not completely wrong. There are extremists and moderates in every religion, and I think the moderates of all religions can generally get along. It's the extremists that spoil the broth, and I do think it is generally accepted that there are more Islamic extremists than extremists of other religions. But that's a difference of degree, not of kind. Fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Hindus are every bit as intolerant as fundamentalist Muslims. They've just had slightly less impact on the modern world, and that's because of dilution among the moderate majorities they've had to live with.

We point to draconian punishments among theocratic Arab states and think, "How barbaric!" but it wasn't that long ago that we were burning heretics alive. And I don't mean in some long lost period ten thousand years ago, but as little as three or four hundred years ago. As little as 120 years ago, the "Christian" administration of the Congo was still mutilating workers who didn't make their quota.

We sneer about the fact that Saudi women just recently got the right to drive to the market without a male escort, but as recently as when my mother came to Canada, she couldn't open a bank account because a married woman couldn't open an account without signed permission from her husband.

So certainly, while our culture may have moved forward in tolerance and equity, it's a much more recent development that we might care to think.

Okay, what do we do while we wait for the Imams to catch up to Pope Francis in their degree of enlightenment? Do we have to wait 300 years for them to stop advocating the beheading of infidels? Luckily, I don't think it takes that long. I really think one generation is enough for a significant amount of moderation to set in, and two generations is enough for the old ways to disappear in all but name.

The nutjobs will always be around, but you can say that for every sect. The Reverend Jim Jones started his cult in the 1960s. Certainly he didn't lack access to Voltaire or John Stuart Mill at his public library. He just chose not to read them.

OK… so like you said it’s a matter of degree. So it’s all how we look at that and how we judge that to change.

Here in the US we have a smaller % muslims migrating here… so it seems/feels like they might have a better shot of integrating and moderating. Whereas in UK and Europe they have larger numbers and stick more tightly together.

One thing I have seen that goes against the points or seems different…

With other immigrant groups it has generally happened that 2nd and 3rd generations moderate and accept “western” culture more readily than that first generation. In Europe and UK some of the people convicted of extremist terrorist attacks from this community are 2nd generation. It seems (in these cases) the first generation was happy to get out of whatever oppressive regime they were fleeing from the Middle East… but then the second generation never experienced that and have reverted back to extremism. This has many causes…
-> policies of Western Nations being perceived as anti-Muslim
-> distance of the 2nd generation from the barbarity of the home country
-> failure to integrate… sticking within your cultural/religious group because that’s “easy”
-> failure to integrate… lack of opportunity or bias against this minority group

Obviously not all my points ‘blame’ muslims… I do think countries accepting migrants need to create policies that present them with educational and financial opportunities… and encourage social integration. Though it’s a two way street.

At the end you seem more hopeful that over time they will integrate and moderate. I feel less hopeful given that the internet and social media seems to make people less moderate… so why wouldn’t that apply to migrants or muslims as well?

[bigtoughralf]

You keep repeating the same shit and refuse to acknowledge your failed OP.

>Tries discussing my OP, makes a fool of himself.
>Switches to talking about them damm Muslims, makes an even bigger fool of himself.
>Puts his fingers in his ears and refuses to debate any further.

Classic jim.

[saxitoxin]

The Supreme Court, in a unanimous, 9-0 ruling, just ordered the Trump Administration to provide sufficient advance notice prior to any deportations under the Alien Enemies Act (AEA) of 1798 that the deportees can have reasonable time to petition for the writ of habeas corpus prior to their actual removal. All three Trump-appointed justices (Barrett, Kavanaugh, and Gorsuch) joined the order.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/2 ... 1_2c83.pdf

The Supreme Court, in a 7-2 emergency midnight order, just ordered a halt to any deportations done under the Alien Enemies Act (AEA) of 1798. All three Trump-appointed justices joined the majority in ordering the stop. Thomas and Alito dissented.

[bigtoughralf]

Supreme Court disagrees with jimboston. Now I just don't know what or who to believe!

[jimboston]

Supreme Court disagrees with jimboston. Now I just don't know what or who to believe!

I guess you don’t know how to read.

This court case has NOTHING to do with the OP.

The courts actually already agreed with me and said that the State Department ultimately has the right to issue and revoke Visas… and that they have no authority in this matter. The Supreme Court hasn’t weighed in (as far as I recall)… but it feels this is unlikely. People on the Left are crying it’s unfair… to revoke those Student Visas… but they’ve won no cases.

The recent Supreme Court decision is related SOLEY to the issue of using the Alien Enemies Act (AEA).

I mean if you are going to argue at least get your cases correct.

You also don’t seem to understand or appreciate nuance.

I’m fine with having hearings before deportations. I don’t think these rushed/secret deportations are cool. Especially considering where people (who have been deported using the AEA) have been sent. If you are going to deport someone to a Venezuelan Prison then THERE SHOULD be at least some effort made to validate that the deportation is legal, AND that the prison option is really the only/most reasonable option.

The revocation of Student Visas has a lower burden. I don’t even know that the deportations happen immediately. They revoke a Visa, then you usually have a short period of time in which you are required to leave. I think there have been a couple cases where immediate detention and deportation proceedings occurred, which seems aggressive to me, so I’d be against immediate/aggressive action. That said, students with revoked Visas return to their home countries… they have not been sent to Venezuelan prisons.