(NO POLITICS) Please, Let's All Be Civil.

[riskllama]

God is against racism and llama wants to ban Him?

lol, HR - certainly not. it's just that religion is at least an inflammatory subject as politics is. wouldn't you agree?

[saxitoxin]

God is against racism and llama wants to ban Him?

lol, HR - certainly not. it's just that religion is at least an inflammatory subject as politics is. wouldn't you agree?

I heard your hemorrhoids are inflamed.

[Jdsizzleslice]

The Independent Pathologist said that he died of, "mechanical asphyxiation."

read - the private sector pathologist selected and paid for by George Floyd's family

(As opposed to the Medical Examiner of Hennepin County who conducts all death investigations and is the only person legally authorized under law to make a legal and binding death determination. For all the Democrat bellowing about the Rule of Law, they sure change their tune fast once the way the law rules doesn't suit them anymore.)

I understand your point on being skeptical of an independent pathologist that was hired by the family to look at the body, but even if you take the County Medical Examiner's findings, it states "neck compression." The officer's knee was on his neck, clearly visible from the video. Ergo, lack of oxygen. Honestly, it was probably this coupled with some of his pre-existing conditions, but the lack of oxygen was the catalyst, no doubt.

Can we both agree that 8 minutes is too long to deprive someone of oxygen for?

Nope.

The sole purpose of the police is to inflict violence on someone until they comply with the law. They enter the picture when all other efforts - polite requests, elementary school civics classes, street signs, social workers, fines - have failed.

Resisting Arrest is illegal. The police are authorized by law to apply violence against a person until they stop committing a crime (Resisting Arrest). If a person commits a crime for eight minutes, they can be subject to eight minutes of violence. Once they stop committing the crime, the violence is no longer legal. That's how every government in the world works. The only question is if George Floyd resisted continuously for eight minutes or if, at some point, he began complying and the officer was aware of compliance. That's what a trial in a court, as opposed to a video posted to Twitter, will figure out.

But the mere fact he said "I can't breathe" is utterly irrelevant. A hospital ship can't be attacked in war. But if a hospital ship is shooting randomly at passing vessels it is no longer a hospital ship despite how many Red Crosses it has painted on its hull or how many patients are aboard. That ship is fair game. Simply yelling "I'm not resisting!" while you're jerking and struggling is not a get out of jail free card.

I disagree. The purpose of the police is not to inflict violence. The purpose of police is to protect it's citizens, using force when necessary. And while I agree they they are often the last resort when it comes to sustaining the law, the purpose is not to inflict violence, but to maintain order. See, violence and force are two separate things entirely.

And I agree resisting arrest is illegal, and should be punishable. However, the punishment is not death, and it certainly does not happen on the spot when an individual is resisting (unless he is actively putting others or the officer's life in harm's way). We have a justice system that deals with sentences of resisting arrest. All I'm saying is that the man that died did not deserve to die that way, even if he was committing alleged crimes.

[saxitoxin]

The Independent Pathologist said that he died of, "mechanical asphyxiation."

read - the private sector pathologist selected and paid for by George Floyd's family

(As opposed to the Medical Examiner of Hennepin County who conducts all death investigations and is the only person legally authorized under law to make a legal and binding death determination. For all the Democrat bellowing about the Rule of Law, they sure change their tune fast once the way the law rules doesn't suit them anymore.)

I understand your point on being skeptical of an independent pathologist that was hired by the family to look at the body, but even if you take the County Medical Examiner's findings, it states "neck compression." The officer's knee was on his neck, clearly visible from the video. Ergo, lack of oxygen. Honestly, it was probably this coupled with some of his pre-existing conditions, but the lack of oxygen was the catalyst, no doubt.

Can we both agree that 8 minutes is too long to deprive someone of oxygen for?

Nope.

The sole purpose of the police is to inflict violence on someone until they comply with the law. They enter the picture when all other efforts - polite requests, elementary school civics classes, street signs, social workers, fines - have failed.

Resisting Arrest is illegal. The police are authorized by law to apply violence against a person until they stop committing a crime (Resisting Arrest). If a person commits a crime for eight minutes, they can be subject to eight minutes of violence. Once they stop committing the crime, the violence is no longer legal. That's how every government in the world works. The only question is if George Floyd resisted continuously for eight minutes or if, at some point, he began complying and the officer was aware of compliance. That's what a trial in a court, as opposed to a video posted to Twitter, will figure out.

But the mere fact he said "I can't breathe" is utterly irrelevant. A hospital ship can't be attacked in war. But if a hospital ship is shooting randomly at passing vessels it is no longer a hospital ship despite how many Red Crosses it has painted on its hull or how many patients are aboard. That ship is fair game. Simply yelling "I'm not resisting!" while you're jerking and struggling is not a get out of jail free card.

I disagree. The purpose of the police is not to inflict violence. The purpose of police is to protect it's citizens, using force when necessary. And while I agree they they are often the last resort when it comes to sustaining the law, the purpose is not to inflict violence, but to maintain order. See, violence and force are two separate things entirely.

And I agree resisting arrest is illegal, and should be punishable. However, the punishment is not death, and it certainly does not happen on the spot when an individual is resisting (unless he is actively putting others or the officer's life in harm's way). We have a justice system that deals with sentences of resisting arrest. All I'm saying is that the man that died did not deserve to die that way, even if he was committing alleged crimes.

The death of a suspect is not a punishment, it is a risk/choice/outcome of the suspect's decision.

If a suspect commits a crime and refuses to stop committing a crime, violence will be used against the suspect until they either voluntarily stop or are unable to continue. If a man is stabbing someone a police officer can shoot him; if he continues stabbing that person the police officer can continue shooting him until the man either chooses to stop or is unable to continue, either as a result of loss of motor function due to gunshot trauma, loss of consciousness, or death.

Any person committed to continuing a crime despite escalating violence being inflicted upon them to force their compliance is at risk of death, regardless of the crime. If a criminal with a drug-idled immune system, infected with Covid-19, inebriated from alcohol, and suffering from chronic heart failure decides to Resist Arrest and refuses to stop after every possible verbal appeal, they must take responsibility for the consequences of their poor decisions. Chauvin is no more responsible for Floyd's death than the engineer of a highway on which a drunk driver kills himself.

[Jdsizzleslice]

The death of a suspect is not a punishment, it is a risk/choice/outcome of the suspect's decision.

If a suspect commits a crime and refuses to stop committing a crime, violence will be used against the suspect until they either voluntarily stop or are unable to continue. If a man is stabbing someone a police officer can shoot him; if he continues stabbing that person the police officer can continue shooting him until the man either chooses to stop or is unable to continue, either as a result of loss of motor function due to gunshot trauma, loss of consciousness, or death.

Any person committed to continuing a crime despite escalating violence being inflicted upon them to force their compliance is at risk of death, regardless of the crime. If a criminal (George Floyd) with a drug-idled immune system, infected with Covid-19, inebriated from alcohol, and suffering from chronic heart failure decides to continue a crime despite escalating force being used to get them to stop they will die sooner than a healthy criminal. George Floyd died like he lived his life - with a series of bad decisions.

But watch the video man. The person who died had already been detained, and the conflict at that point had de-escalated compared to where it was previously. The police can use force (not violence) to subdue and detain criminals and individuals to whom the police are investigating of committing crimes. Even if I grant you the point that he was doing something illegal (which at this point has yet to be proven) that still doesn't grant any justifiable reason that he died. For others who have died over the years that have led to a similar outcry of people, there is definitely a claim to be made that some of the people who died were putting others and/or an officer's life in jeopardy. However, this is clearly not one of those cases.

Also, the force that is used to subdue criminals depends on what type of crime is being committed/alleged. I agree, a person who is stabbing someone else does deserve to have a gun pointed at them to stop the stabbing, ergo the necessary force and authority the police have to stop the infringement of someone else's life. I fully support this type of action by the police. However, if someone is alleged to have used counterfeit money and is allegedly resisting arrest, do they deserve to have a knee to the neck while they cannot breathe? I think this situation could have been handled way better by the officer. I don't personally know the officer, and it's quite possible this was a heat of the moment thing for him initially, but after a few minutes of deescalation and the emotion of the situation had calmed, sense should have kicked in and the officer should have re-positioned himself, gotten the other officers to help, etc. I still don't see a justifiable reason he died, even if he was allegedly committing crimes. I hate that this is being painted as a racist act, because I think it was just a human being who made a serious mistake and now has to live with that for the rest of his life. This is the reasoning behind my earlier statement of better/more efficient training for current and future officers.

[saxitoxin]

But watch the video man.

Fortunately, for the time being, in this country we still decide guilt or innocence after a deliberative process in which all evidence is considered by a jury. We don't pronounce guilt from a grainy, one angle partial cell phone video that had no chain of custody after a voice vote from the mob.

However, if someone is alleged to have used counterfeit money and is allegedly resisting arrest, do they deserve to have a knee to the neck while they cannot breathe?

The police don't determine what someone does or does not deserve, that's the job of a judge.

There is a continuum of force that begins with muscle pressure, moves on to chemical agents, then baton strikes, and finally gunshot. Even firearms are justified to bring a person into custody if every other effort has been exhausted and they still refuse to obey the requirements established by the civilized community in which they live.

The only job of the police is to apply force until a person who has refused all other appeals complies with the law. It doesn't matter what law it is and whether or not a person "deserves" it is irrelevant. The only reason states exist is because they maintain tools of violence like the police and army and humans are scared of violence. Without violence there is no government. If the police have no authority to use force to take a person into custody for 3rd degree shoplifting or DWI then there's no reason to have shoplifting or DWI laws. If I shoplifted a $2 candy bar and a police officer said he was going to arrest me, I would always just walk away if he had no authority to use force to take me into custody. I would be an idiot not to. I don't understand why this is difficult to comprehend.

[Jdsizzleslice]

But watch the video man.

Fortunately, for the time being, in this country we still decide guilt or innocence after a deliberative process in which all evidence is considered by a jury. We don't pronounce guilt from a grainy, one angle partial cell phone video that had no chain of custody after a voice vote from the mob.

I agree, appropriate and official punishment should come from an investigation and a trial. And I agree, for the moment, the officer is innocent until proven guilty. But from the video it's very clear other measures could have been taken to subdue the individual. It's not just the mob that is saying that this was unjustified, it's 99% of the United States right now.

However, if someone is alleged to have used counterfeit money and is allegedly resisting arrest, do they deserve to have a knee to the neck while they cannot breathe?

The police don't determine what someone does or does not deserve, that's the job of a judge.

There is a continuum of force that begins with muscle pressure, moves on to chemical agents, then baton strikes, and finally gunshot. Even firearms are justified to bring a person into custody if every other effort has been exhausted and they still refuse to obey the requirements established by the civilized community in which they live.

I agree, and that's the point I'm really trying to make. Police enforce laws, while Judges issue verdicts. If he was really committing any crime, a judge should have given him a verdict, not his life taken away from him by an officer who made a mistake.

The only job of the police is to apply force until a person who has refused all other appeals complies with the law. It doesn't matter what law it is and whether or not a person "deserves" it is irrelevant. The only reason states exist is because they maintain tools of violence like the police and army and humans are scared of violence. Without violence there is no government. If the police have no authority to use force to take a person into custody for 3rd degree shoplifting or DWI then there's no reason to have shoplifting or DWI laws. If I shoplifted a $2 candy bar and a police officer said he was going to arrest me, I would always just walk away if he had no authority to use force to take me into custody. I would be an idiot not to. I don't understand why this is difficult to comprehend.

This is where I disagree. For a number of reasons.

1. It does matter what law you are breaking as to what type of actions police officers use. If you are caught jaywalking, you're most likely going to get a ticket. No force necessary. But if you smack the officer's pad away that he is writing the ticket on, you've just committed the crime of assaulting an officer, which then gives him the authority to act by detaining and subduing you. The officer can't shove a gun in your face for jaywalking. The officer can shove a gun in your face if you assault him.
2. States exist for more than just police reasons. The idea of the State is that they can somewhat make their own laws regarding what their citizens want. This is commonly referred to States Rights (in an extremely vague description, though). States have to abide by certain Federal laws and guidelines but can choose how they want to run their State. Police is part of the State but it is only a portion of what a State really stands for.

Lastly, let me give you a thank you, because our conversation up until this point has been very civil. And we may not necessarily see eye to eye on this specific issue, I applaud you for being willing to have a discourse with me and talk to me like a normal human being. Props to you, saxi.

[mrswdk]

jd ITT: 'This thread is about the current rioting in the US and what should be done in response to it, and my OT takes several clear stances in relation to that, and I'm going to spend most of my comments in this thread debating the circumstances surrounding George Floyd's death, but please no one post anything political in here'

[Dukasaur]

He was a convicted armed robber and child support absconder who made a living beating up drunks at clubs. Do you think we're missing out on a cure for cancer he might have developed at some point?

No great loss? He died man. C'mon, you're better than that.

Lol, I wish I had a dime for every time I've seen someone incredulously say, "Saxi, you're better than that." I could retire to a beach house in Malibu.

No, he isn't. This is what he is, a spirit of malevolent evil that takes delight in the suffering of others. He writes grand love letters to Assad, Putin, Qaddafi, Trump, and Bolsonaro, while ridiculing those who suffer under their regimes.

I was going to insert a few saxi quotes, but (a) I have to get ready for work and don't have the time and (b) it just isn't worth it. We've all seen them. The most lurid and offensive insults leveled at those in a state of despair, and paeans of praise for those who put them there.

[Dukasaur]

God is against racism and llama wants to ban Him?

Someone hasn't read Deuteronomy 7 lately.

[2dimes]

God is against racism and llama wants to ban Him?

Someone hasn't read Deuteronomy 7 lately.

I have read convincing arguments about racism in Luke 10:25-37 The Parable of the Good Samaritan.

[ConfederateSS]

--------What needs to stop is the attack on History!!!!!!!!!!!
----------Here we are again...Burning cities to the ground...Just like "67"...The space Program kicking off...In today's America again burning cities to the ground...This week marks the 1st time in nearly a decade we launched a manned rocket to space on U.S. soil...
-------HISTORY REPEATS...QUIT TEARING IT DOWN AMERICA...
-------I am pissed off most of all...DETROIT.......WE JUST STARTED TO GET OVER THE "67" RIOTS ...THE BURNING OF THE CITY DOWN YEAR AFTER YEAR...6 DECADES OF CRAP...THE CHASING PEOPLE ,OR KILLING OF PEOPLE OUT OF DETROIT.....DETROIT WAS JUST BACK ON IT'S FEET...PEOPLE MOVING BACK TO THE CITY......HERE WE GO AGAIN DETROIT... DAMN ...2080 IS RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER...2080...That will be the year...I MEAN REALLY NO OTHER CITY IN AMERICAN HAS BEEN MADE FUN OF...OR HATED TO GO TO THEN DETROIT...EVEN THOSE BANNER WAVING POSERS ...WHO RUN INTO THE CITY TO SEE A SPORTING EVENT LIKE THE TIGERS,LIONS,PISTONS,RED WINGS...COULDN'T WAIT TO RUN OUT OF THE CITY, WHEN THE EVENT ,GAME WAS OVER...COME ON DETROIT...GET IT TOGETHER...DON'T LET THE CITY FADE AWAY AGAIN ...... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... ,SOUTHWEST,DETROIT...

[Jdsizzleslice]

jd ITT: 'This thread is about the current rioting in the US and what should be done in response to it, and my OT takes several clear stances in relation to that, and I'm going to spend most of my comments in this thread debating the circumstances surrounding George Floyd's death, but please no one post anything political in here'

Thank you for seeing things my way. No politics to be had here.

I MEAN REALLY NO OTHER CITY IN AMERICAN HAS BEEN MADE FUN OF...OR HATED TO GO TO THEN DETROIT...

I would make an argument Cleveland is just as worse, lol.

[mookiemcgee]

I MEAN REALLY NO OTHER CITY IN AMERICAN HAS BEEN MADE FUN OF...OR HATED TO GO TO THEN DETROIT...

I would make an argument Cleveland is just as worse, lol.

[saxitoxin]

The most lurid and offensive insults leveled at those in a state of despair, and paeans of praise for those who put them there.

Are you talking about your genocidal fantasies about the Palestinians? Any idea how long someone would last walking with an "Israeli" flag into the middle of any of these protests? Like 10 seconds.

All your little friends out there rioting disagree with you. And agree with me.

[mookiemcgee]

The most lurid and offensive insults leveled at those in a state of despair, and paeans of praise for those who put them there.

Are you talking about your genocidal fantasies about the Palestinians? I hope you realize that all your little friends out there rioting disagree with you. And agree with me.

The protesters agree with your stance that the police's only job is to inflict violence on US citizens? I don't think anyone out there protesting agrees with anything you spew. The folk who were protesting over being told it's safer to stay at home right now, well they agree with almost everything you say!

[mookiemcgee]

Jd, you seem to be having trouble policing the rules you set around no politics in this thread. Perhaps you should kneel on Saxi's throat for about 10 min, he's been resisting your attempts to bring order!

[2dimes]

Taze him!

[mookiemcgee]

The world of kneeling according to saxi:



Good=







Bad=

[saxitoxin]

The most lurid and offensive insults leveled at those in a state of despair, and paeans of praise for those who put them there.

Are you talking about your genocidal fantasies about the Palestinians? I hope you realize that all your little friends out there rioting disagree with you. And agree with me.

The protesters agree with your stance

... that the Palestinian people are oppressed, deserve a state of their own, and that the Israelis are thugs. Yes.

If Duk wandered into the middle of a Democriot waving an Israeli flag and yelling "We all support Israel and their stance on Palestine, right boys!" how do you think that'd go over?

Also, I'm curious how long Duk's rap sheet is.

[Jdsizzleslice]

Jd, you seem to be having trouble policing the rules you set around no politics in this thread. Perhaps you should kneel on Saxi's throat for about 10 min, he's been resisting your attempts to bring order!

The main title says to be civil... so no...

Also, the Cleveland videos gave me a good laugh.