Tiananmen Square protests 1989

[Symmetry]

So it’s certainly true that different cultures with different histories, values, languages, and modes of thoughts, etc. will both want/prefer and be able handle/control different forms of gov’t.

The arrogance of most people in ‘the West’ is that ‘we’ feel our form of government is ‘the best’ and therefore every other person/nation on the face of the planet must also want THE EXACT SAME THING. This has gotten ‘us’ into trouble over and over again. Sometime we try to ‘help’ countries become ‘democratic’ only to find that this imposed form of gov’t doesn’t take. Other times we have ‘helped’ establish a democratic system only to find that the people of that country hate us, and then they start using their new democratic powers to establish policies we don’t like or (more frequently) policies that US business doesn’t like. It’s a dangerous game to play, but still ‘we’ (the West) continue to play it over and over.

Another complicating factor is that most people in ‘the West’ don’t even really understand our own form of gov’t. People here throw out the term Democracy, and think that defines our form of government... it really doesn’t. You might call the USA a ‘Democratic Republic’ or a ‘Constitutional Republic’... but we’re not a true ‘Democracy’. I dare say that no one here would really want to live in a total ‘pure’ Democracy. It would be unmanageable especially on the scale of a country the size of the US. I live in a Town were we still have olde fashion ‘Town Meetings’. If you’ve never experienced a New England style Town Meeting let me tell you, you’re not missing much. It’s an antiquated and unwieldy system. It probably worked well in the 1700’s when it was setup... and it likely serviced the local towns throughout the 19th century and most of the 20th, when the town was smaller and most people new each other and worked locally. Today it makes no sense, and there is a movement to reform it in my town, but that itself is going to be a cluster-f**k.... and that’s in a town with a population less than 20K. How hard is it to reform a system that governs 1.4 billion people?

China’s not perfect... the gov’t certainly likes to control information in a way that offends Western sensibilities, but this is primarily a tool the gov’t is using to ‘manage’ change. China has changed for the better in the past 30 years. It’s more free, the economy is better, and the lives of more people are better now than they were 30 years back. That’s progress. Who are ‘we’ to say it’s the wrong kind of progress or not fast enough? If China just dropped all control tomorrow it’s likely there would be a lot of chaos, and once that happens how can you be sure that the change you get is good? The ‘West’ would do well to have a little more respect for China, especially where it’s internal issues don’t impact us. Perhaps then we would be able to focus on where their actions affect other countries, and we’d get more cooperation?

Hmm- why not let the people decide? I appreciate your arguments, but you seem to hate that idea.

[jimboston]

Sym, are you trying to bait me?

Where do I say or imply that I ‘hate’ the idea of ‘letting people decide’?

... also what people do you think I’m trying to prevent ‘deciding’ and what are they trying to decide?

If you are suggesting I don’t the people of China deciding their own future, your wrong.

I’m merely noting that...
*It’s really not our (the US Government’s) business.
*I don’t think that the US can do or should do anything about it anyway.
and
*Though things in China aren’t perfect, they’re better than they were 30 years ago.

I think if things were terrible in China the mass of people would rise up. I think if you asked your average Chinese person about it and told him a bunch of Westerners on an Internet forum were talking about internal Chinese politics, they’d mostly tell us to “butt out”. In general I support the idea of people ‘deciding’... but if people have not had the agency to make those types of decisions, and it is thrust upon them with no time to learn or think about it or develop those skills; it often turns out badly.

[jusplay4fun]

JimBoston,

Don't you realize that such baiting is the "job" of trolls like Symm, to bait you into saying something that you did not mean to say or to twist your words and ideas to make you look like a________: racist, misogynist, bigot, homophobe, worthless individual or an idiot? Take your pick and fill-in-the-blank, there, Jim.

Generally, trolls like him (or mrswdk or the fake burn) have nothing truly meaningful or worthwhile to say; they want to get a laugh at your expense and try to make you look silly or worse. They try to provoke you to lash out emotionally as they pick on you and bully you. They are actually the morons, but they try come across as knowledgeable and wise and sophisticated. They are not. They are sad and mad people whose only accomplishments in life are based on creating misery for others. What a sad and miserable life they have. There are other trolls that can be added to this "list of infamy." I will let others be the judge of "worthy" additions.

Jim, maybe it is best to ignore such losers.

Sym, are you trying to bait me?

Where do I say or imply that I ‘hate’ the idea of ‘letting people decide’?

... also what people do you think I’m trying to prevent ‘deciding’ and what are they trying to decide?

If you are suggesting I don’t the people of China deciding their own future, your wrong.

I’m merely noting that...
*It’s really not our (the US Government’s) business.
*I don’t think that the US can do or should do anything about it anyway.
and
*Though things in China aren’t perfect, they’re better than they were 30 years ago.

I think if things were terrible in China the mass of people would rise up. I think if you asked your average Chinese person about it and told him a bunch of Westerners on an Internet forum were talking about internal Chinese politics, they’d mostly tell us to “butt out”. In general I support the idea of people ‘deciding’... but if people have not had the agency to make those types of decisions, and it is thrust upon them with no time to learn or think about it or develop those skills; it often turns out badly.

[Bernie Sanders]

My boy....the philosopher.

You always keep me at the edge of my seat when you call someone an idiot, moron or troll.

Then you complain that others are into name-calling.....rotflmao!

Love you my little blue baby,
Dad

[jimboston]

JimBoston,

Don't you realize that such baiting is the "job" of trolls like Symm, to bait you into saying something that you did not mean to say or to twist your words and ideas to make you look like a________: racist, misogynist, bigot, homophobe, worthless individual or an idiot? Take your pick and fill-in-the-blank, there, Jim.

Generally, trolls like him (or mrswdk or the fake burn) have nothing truly meaningful or worthwhile to say; they want to get a laugh at your expense and try to make you look silly or worse. They try to provoke you to lash out emotionally as they pick on you and bully you. They are actually the morons, but they try come across as knowledgeable and wise and sophisticated. They are not. They are sad and mad people whose only accomplishments in life are based on creating misery for others. What a sad and miserable life they have.

I disagree.

Most people here have something useful to say, at least some of the time, even mrswdk!

Shit! Even Nomad’s comments on the X-Men and Godzilla movies have value. Beyond that, I can’t get behind most everything else I’ve seen him write.... but he point is that even the worst ‘Trolls’ sometimes add value to the conversation.

I think Bernie can be Trollish, and all his sexual innuendos and puns get tiresome. He’s trying to copy Saxi’s style, but Saxi is unique and not easy to duplicate.

Sym is a different beast. He isn’t a troll, but does sometimes like to bait people... sometimes I think it’s because he wants the poster to probe their points deeper and reevaluate their thoughts, but other times I do think it’s a true ‘bait’ to get the ‘gotcha’ moment. In this case I think he was trying to setup a ‘gotcha’ moment.... I couldn’t tell. So I asked.

You may think I’m unfamiliar with the personalities here, as I appear new to you.... but I was a regular poster for years and then stopped, but now I'm back (at least till it bores me again. Some of these lunkheads; Bern, Sym, Duk, and I think mrswdk too were around then.... along with others. So though some time has changed, a lot has stayed the same.

[jusplay4fun]

You are correct, IMO, Jim. I over-simplified things. My main point is still relevant, though. Most of these guys, trolls or not, have little useful to say. And that is true most of the time and of most of their comments. What they say may be of interest to some, but not to me.

Most of what is posted here is dribble and I ignore most of the threads as they are obvious attempts to bait others into those reactions that I already addressed and stated.

JimBoston,

Don't you realize that such baiting is the "job" of trolls like Symm, to bait you into saying something that you did not mean to say or to twist your words and ideas to make you look like a________: racist, misogynist, bigot, homophobe, worthless individual or an idiot? Take your pick and fill-in-the-blank, there, Jim.

Generally, trolls like him (or mrswdk or the fake burn) have nothing truly meaningful or worthwhile to say; they want to get a laugh at your expense and try to make you look silly or worse. They try to provoke you to lash out emotionally as they pick on you and bully you. They are actually the morons, but they try come across as knowledgeable and wise and sophisticated. They are not. They are sad and mad people whose only accomplishments in life are based on creating misery for others. What a sad and miserable life they have.

I disagree.

Most people here have something useful to say, at least some of the time, even mrswdk!

Shit! Even Nomad’s comments on the X-Men and Godzilla movies have value. Beyond that, I can’t get behind most everything else I’ve seen him write.... but he point is that even the worst ‘Trolls’ sometimes add value to the conversation.

I think Bernie can be Trollish, and all his sexual innuendos and puns get tiresome. He’s trying to copy Saxi’s style, but Saxi is unique and not easy to duplicate.

Sym is a different beast. He isn’t a troll, but does sometimes like to bait people... sometimes I think it’s because he wants the poster to probe their points deeper and reevaluate their thoughts, but other times I do think it’s a true ‘bait’ to get the ‘gotcha’ moment. In this case I think he was trying to setup a ‘gotcha’ moment.... I couldn’t tell. So I asked.

You may think I’m unfamiliar with the personalities here, as I appear new to you.... but I was a regular poster for years and then stopped, but now I'm back (at least till it bores me again. Some of these lunkheads; Bern, Sym, Duk, and I think mrswdk too were around then.... along with others. So though some time has changed, a lot has stayed the same.

[Bernie Sanders]

I'm asking Jim and my blue baby to please stop trolling posters in this forum.

[jimboston]

I'm asking Jim and my blue baby to please stop trolling posters in this forum.

I’m asking Bernie to stop making useless posts, especially ones that are not funny, and only post a comment when you have something to add to the conversation. Thanks.

[Bernie Sanders]

I hate your passive aggressive behaviour.

[mrswdk]

You are correct, IMO, Jim. I over-simplified things. My main point is still relevant, though. Most of these guys, trolls or not, have little useful to say. And that is true most of the time and of most of their comments. What they say may be of interest to some, but not to me.

Most of what is posted here is dribble and I ignore most of the threads as they are obvious attempts to bait others into those reactions that I already addressed and stated.

*tips fedora*

[Symmetry]

Sym, are you trying to bait me?

Where do I say or imply that I ‘hate’ the idea of ‘letting people decide’?

... also what people do you think I’m trying to prevent ‘deciding’ and what are they trying to decide?

If you are suggesting I don’t the people of China deciding their own future, your wrong.

I’m merely noting that...
*It’s really not our (the US Government’s) business.
*I don’t think that the US can do or should do anything about it anyway.
and
*Though things in China aren’t perfect, they’re better than they were 30 years ago.

I think if things were terrible in China the mass of people would rise up. I think if you asked your average Chinese person about it and told him a bunch of Westerners on an Internet forum were talking about internal Chinese politics, they’d mostly tell us to “butt out”. In general I support the idea of people ‘deciding’... but if people have not had the agency to make those types of decisions, and it is thrust upon them with no time to learn or think about it or develop those skills; it often turns out badly.

Would they though? Rise up, I mean? When they have, it's been brutally suppressed.

There's the horrific concentration camps of Chinese Muslims that count against your argument.

Plus, if you aren't aware, the fact that China has been executing dissidents for organ harvesting-

China is harvesting organs from detainees, tribunal concludes

At some point you may have to decide that these aren't just differences in culture jb. It's systematic suppression of dissent.

[jimboston]

Would they though? Rise up, I mean? When they have, it's been brutally suppressed.

There's the horrific concentration camps of Chinese Muslims that count against your argument.

Plus, if you aren't aware, the fact that China has been executing dissidents for organ harvesting-

China is harvesting organs from detainees, tribunal concludes

At some point you may have to decide that these aren't just differences in culture jb. It's systematic suppression of dissent.

I’ll admit I wasn’t aware of the organ harvesting... that’s truly horrific and sounds like something the Nazi’s would have done in WW2.

I don’t think I ever said China was perfect, and I don’t plan to be like mrswdk and defend China at all costs and on all fronts.

They are definitely a suppressive regime and there’s definitely things that should change.

My point is simply...
1) Things have changed for the better in China in that past 30 years.
Obviously not for everyone and obviously not at all for some... but for the majority of Chinese people I’m standing by my statement that things are on average better.

2) The Chinese gov’t is definitely managing the change and slowing it / controlling it. I think that’s the natural attitude of any government, because fast/radical change leads to revolution... which leads to people at the top losing their heads... which may lead to a better form of government, but not necessarily. Radical change and revolution can just as easily lead to a worse gov’t and worse situation for the people.

Would ‘the people’ of China rise up? I think yes if the majority of people didn’t recognize that things are going (however slowly) in the right direction yes... but maybe i’m wrong. I like to think i’m fairly well informed, but i’m not an expert on China nor am I expert on dissidents and revolution.

I’m not condoning these things China is doing... and I think it’s OK to express disgust and condemn these actions.

I just don’t think China cares what we think... and I don’t think we can do much to stop them.

If we (as a country) were a bit more self-sufficient then maybe our economic threats would have some weight or muscle... and that’s another reason I support that goal. Though I don’t see your average consumer caring enough to agree paying 3 times more for an iPhone. Sad.

I also think that there are some things about the US that other countries can point at an call ‘inhumane’... specifically our criminal justice system, or our entrenched low-class multi-generationally poor. Not saying it’s comparably as bad as harvesting organs from political dissidents... but it’s not great.

[jusplay4fun]

Protests in Hong Kong continue and a few use violence:

‘Hong Kong People Are Desperate’

In Hong Kong, July 1 is an official holiday meant for celebrating the territory’s handover in 1997 from British to Chinese rule that usually draws protests from civil society and pro-democracy groups. This time, some demonstrators turned violent. Though hundreds of thousands marched in peace, a throng stormed a legislative building, smashing its glass walls, dismantling fences and gates and vandalizing the inner chamber. Even some who did not participate in the violence didn’t condemn it either. “Hong Kong people are desperate. My generation is desperate,” said one. “We don’t know what to do. We just try our best.” The latest developments raise questions about how much further dissent the mainland Chinese government will tolerate.

https://www.latimes.com/newsletters/la-me-todays-headlines-20190702-story.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MexicoStories+%28Mexico+Stories%29&utm_content=Yahoo+Search+Results

[Symmetry]

Over they years I've read, watched, or listened to at least 50 interviews with Tiannanmen survivors. Five of the fifty were just this week, so it's fresh in my mind. I don't think a single one of the fifty said "urban dwellers were not properly benefiting from economic reforms."

And yet, that is the reason why some urban workers and soldiers supported the protests, and why the government brought in soldiers from the countryside to help end them.

Here are the Seven Demands published by the student body

As your article says, that was a list written by the first group of students who started protesting immediately after the death of Hu Yaobang. They were just one of the many disparate groups of people who turned up to the Tiananmen protests. As your article also says, when the protests were at their peak the issue most commonly being protests by the various organised groups was official corruption.

the students marching in Peking Beijing were part of a worldwide upheaval

They were completely unrelated to anything happening outside the country. A domestic politician had just died and people were showing support for policy reforms he had been implementing since earlier in the 1980s - way before that timeline of yours starts.

Sometimes things happen in one place at the same time as things are also happening in a different place. A civil war broke out in Liberia in 1989 as well.

Interesting take. Does it at all bother you that documentary evidence is banned?

[mrswdk]

I'm indifferent. When things like Wikileaks the Chilcot Inquiry etc. get published in Western media the public debate that accompanies them generally achieves nothing. There is no reason to think that a public debate around Tiananmen 1989 would achieve anything positive. If the Chinese government wants to contain the debate until a point in time at which the subject has become less emotive then that seems like a valid course of action.

Not all countries are like the UK, where people are happy to protest, make a fuss, and then just give up as soon as they realise the government is going to ignore them (see: Iraq War protests, tuition fees protests, etc.). Some folks get a little rowdier, and if not managed carefully then those folks end up needing to be dealt a slightly sterner response:



Obviously the optics of the stern response are bad, so it's best to just nip things in the bud at the source if you can.

[Dukasaur]

In interviews that were presumably held with people who have since left the country and are willing/keen to air their views in Western media. Those sorts of exiles are always rabidly anti anti (like how if you ask Edward Snowden and Julian Assange what they think of the US Government, you're unlikely to get a response that reflects what many people in the US think).

The UK's Guardian reckons the protests were about 'greater freedom of speech, economic freedoms and curbs on corruption' (here). There are plenty of sources that say similar. Even you put 'democracy' fourth on your list of your things. They were not 'pro-democracy protests', they were protests within which some people called for an American or European style system of representative democracy to be put in place.

In any case, as I said previously in this thread I think a lot of people commenting are confused about what democracy even is anyway. The Western media hack view is that 'voting = democracy, not voting = no democracy', which is incredibly over simplistic. Democracy is enshrined in the Chinese government's constitutions and expressed values, which it enacts like this - speak to the public, find out what they want, enact policies that will meet their needs/address their concerns. The main difference between the Chinese system and the system in, say, America is that in China representatives are not chosen by a public ballot.

Incidentally, that Chinese 'consultative democracy' is actually the same way that the vast majority of government policies get designed and implemented in countries like the US and UK as well. The UK's health service just published its plan for its next 10 years of spending and service transformation. None of the content of that was put to a public vote or discussed in the UK Parliament (and actually this current plan didn't even go to the Prime Minister's office for approval). The same happens all across government. Most people in the country don't know about most government policies and they certainly don't vote on them.

Most people don't notice what goes on in government until it affects them personally, just as most people don't notice the workings of their car engine until it breaks down.

It's fine as long as it's working, until one day it doesn't. It's great when the government is doing things that make you happy, but what happens when you wake up one morning and find out that the government has done something horribly bad?

The right to petition, the right to sue the government, the right to protest, and the ability to vote are all checks that the citizens have on the government's ability to run roughshod over them. In China all four are either weak or nonexistent. That leaves the people with very little protection when your consultative process has been suborned.

[mrswdk]

Most people don't notice what goes on in government until it affects them personally, just as most people don't notice the workings of their car engine until it breaks down.

It's fine as long as it's working, until one day it doesn't. It's great when the government is doing things that make you happy, but what happens when you wake up one morning and find out that the government has done something horribly bad?

The right to petition, the right to sue the government, the right to protest, and the ability to vote are all checks that the citizens have on the government's ability to run roughshod over them. In China all four are either weak or nonexistent. That leaves the people with very little protection when your consultative process has been suborned.

Congress' approval rating hasn't hit 30% in 10 years. That's a record.

A new Gallup poll shows that just 20% of Americans approve of the job Congress is doing. The vast majority, 75%, disapprove of the job Congress is doing.

The average approval rating Americans have given Congress since September 2009 is 17%.

The decline in congressional approval is almost certainly linked to the decline in trust of government in general. According to the Pew Research Center, only 17% of Americans currently trust government always or most of the time. That's tied for a record low that also occurred in the last 10 years.

Source

Is this what it looks like when people petition and protest in order to stop a government riding roughshod over them? Successive governments that no one likes and no one trusts?

You're right, those checks and balances sure are effective!

[jusplay4fun]

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”

― Winston S. Churchill

[Symmetry]

I think we should we hear from some of the survivors of the massacre...

[Bernie Sanders]

I think we should we hear from some of the survivors of the massacre...

They're busy making Nike shoes with American flags.

[2dimes]

Ok, the percentage is very low but someone should make sure koolbak sees this rare high quality post by the Bern.

I think we should we hear from some of the survivors of the massacre...

They're busy making Nike shoes with American flags.

[jusplay4fun]

Even a broken analog clock is right twice a day.

[Bernie Sanders]

Even a broken analog clock is right twice a day.

Analog clock?

....is this JUS another attempt by my blue baby to appear to be an intellectual?

[Bernie Sanders]

AND STOP BAITING AND TROLLING ME!

[Symmetry]

Would they though? Rise up, I mean? When they have, it's been brutally suppressed.

There's the horrific concentration camps of Chinese Muslims that count against your argument.

Plus, if you aren't aware, the fact that China has been executing dissidents for organ harvesting-

China is harvesting organs from detainees, tribunal concludes

At some point you may have to decide that these aren't just differences in culture jb. It's systematic suppression of dissent.

I’ll admit I wasn’t aware of the organ harvesting... that’s truly horrific and sounds like something the Nazi’s would have done in WW2.

I don’t think I ever said China was perfect, and I don’t plan to be like mrswdk and defend China at all costs and on all fronts.

They are definitely a suppressive regime and there’s definitely things that should change.

My point is simply...
1) Things have changed for the better in China in that past 30 years.
Obviously not for everyone and obviously not at all for some... but for the majority of Chinese people I’m standing by my statement that things are on average better.

2) The Chinese gov’t is definitely managing the change and slowing it / controlling it. I think that’s the natural attitude of any government, because fast/radical change leads to revolution... which leads to people at the top losing their heads... which may lead to a better form of government, but not necessarily. Radical change and revolution can just as easily lead to a worse gov’t and worse situation for the people.

Would ‘the people’ of China rise up? I think yes if the majority of people didn’t recognize that things are going (however slowly) in the right direction yes... but maybe i’m wrong. I like to think i’m fairly well informed, but i’m not an expert on China nor am I expert on dissidents and revolution.

I’m not condoning these things China is doing... and I think it’s OK to express disgust and condemn these actions.

I just don’t think China cares what we think... and I don’t think we can do much to stop them.

If we (as a country) were a bit more self-sufficient then maybe our economic threats would have some weight or muscle... and that’s another reason I support that goal. Though I don’t see your average consumer caring enough to agree paying 3 times more for an iPhone. Sad.

I also think that there are some things about the US that other countries can point at an call ‘inhumane’... specifically our criminal justice system, or our entrenched low-class multi-generationally poor. Not saying it’s comparably as bad as harvesting organs from political dissidents... but it’s not great.

Given that I'm from a country that basically invented modern concentration camps, and should always be remembered for doing so, I get it. Ignoring other countries doing so shouldn't be considered hypocrisy though. It should be a duty to never see it replicated if you ever thought it wrong. Anything else is just a tacit agreement that it was right at the time.