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Oil prices ready for collapse?

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Oil prices ready for collapse?

Postby Bernie Sanders on Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:31 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/16/business/energy-environment/oil-prices-one-million-barrel-glut.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1

We can expect oil prices to drop below $20 a barrel, a boon to consumers, bad news for oil exporting countries and a couple of States in America [but who cares about Texas, right?]

Iran will be dumping another 2 million barrels a day soon, as sanctions are being dropped. Oil storage around the world is filling up.

What are the ramifications for the major oil producers? Will Russia become destabilized?

Who will benefit and who will be hurt? Commodities like gold and silver, will they rise in price to offset currency declines in nations like Russia and other oil producers, where they will seek to save their assets? Will copper prices continue declining? China will benefit from declining oil prices, but will they see their economy improve?

Thank goodness I cashed in all my stocks a few weeks ago. I will wait a couple of weeks and see where my best options are in the stock market and/or commodities.
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Re: Oil prices ready for collapse?

Postby DaGip on Sat Jan 16, 2016 12:52 pm

I'm fucked.
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Re: Oil prices ready for collapse?

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:18 pm

DaGip wrote:I'm fucked.

Well, you won't have to worry about the Keystone pipeline getting resurrected.
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Re: Oil prices ready for collapse?

Postby warmonger1981 on Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:54 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ ... nears.html
is nears
Clients told to seek safety of Bunds and Treasuries. 'This is about return of capital, not return on capital. In a crowded hall, exit doors are small'

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RBS warned clients of trouble just before the 2008 crisis. It has done so again Photo: Getty Images
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Ambrose Evans-Pritchard By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard10:20PM GMT 11 Jan 2016 Comments779 Comments
RBS has advised clients to brace for a “cataclysmic year” and a global deflationary crisis, warning that major stock markets could fall by a fifth and oil may plummet to $16 a barrel.
The bank’s credit team said markets are flashing stress alerts akin to the turbulent months before the Lehman crisis in 2008. “Sell everything except high quality bonds. This is about return of capital, not return on capital. In a crowded hall, exit doors are small,” it said in a client note.
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Andrew Roberts, the bank’s research chief for European economics and rates, said that global trade and loans are contracting, a nasty cocktail for corporate balance sheets and equity earnings. This is particularly ominous given that global debt ratios have reached record highs.
“China has set off a major correction and it is going to snowball. Equities and credit have become very dangerous, and we have hardly even begun to retrace the 'Goldlocks love-in' of the last two years,” he said.
Mr Roberts expects Wall Street and European stocks to fall by 10pc to 20pc, with even an deeper slide for the FTSE 100 given its high weighting of energy and commodities companies. “London is vulnerable to a negative shock. All these people who are ‘long’ oil and mining companies thinking that the dividends are safe are going to discover that they’re not at all safe,” he said.

Brent oil prices will continue to slide after breaking through a key technical level at $34.40, RBS claimed, with a “bear flag” and “Fibonacci” signals pointing to a floor of $16, a level last seen after the East Asia crisis in 1999. The bank said a paralysed OPEC seems incapable of responding to a deepening slowdown in Asia, now the swing region for global oil demand.
Morgan Stanley has also slashed its oil forecast, warning that Brent could fall to $20 if the US dollar keeps rising. It argued that oil is intensely leveraged to any move in the dollar and is now playing second fiddle to currency effects.

RBS forecast that yields on 10-year German Bunds would fall time to an all-time low of 0.16pc in a flight to safety, and may break zero as deflationary forces tighten their grip. The European Central Bank’s policy rate will fall to -0.7pc.
US Treasuries will fall to rock-bottom levels in sympathy, hammering hedge funds that have shorted US bonds in a very crowded “reflation trade”.

RBS first issued its grim warnings for the global economy in November but events have moved even faster than feared. It estimates that the US economy slowed to a growth rate of 0.5pc in the fourth quarter, and accuses the US Federal Reserve of “playing with fire” by raising rates into the teeth of the storm. “There has already been severe monetary tightening in the US from the rising dollar,” it said.
It is unusual for the Fed to tighten when the ISM manufacturing index is below the boom-bust line of 50. It is even more surprising to do so after nominal GDP growth has fallen to 3pc and has been trending down since early 2014.
• Time to sell everything? No, this is when 'hold everything' works
RBS said the epicentre of global stress is China, where debt-driven expansion has reached saturation. The country now faces a surge in capital flight and needs a “dramatically lower” currency. In their view, this next leg of the rolling global drama is likely to play out fast and furiously.
“We are deeply sceptical of the consensus that the authorities can ‘buy time’ by their heavy intervention in cutting reserve ratio requirements (RRR), rate cuts and easing in fiscal policy,” it said.
Mr Roberts said the tightening cycle by the Anglo-Saxon central banks is already over. There will be no rate rises by the Bank of England before the downturn hits, and the next action by the Fed may be a humiliating volte-face and a rate cut.

RBS is not alone in fearing trouble. UBS issued what it called a “significant change” to its house view late last week, saying policy chaos in China had unsettled markets. It cut exposure to equities from overweight to neutral on a “six-month tactical horizon”. It went underweight emerging markets.
UBS said it is a precautionary move, insisting that the current global credit cycle has not yet peaked. Low oil prices should ultimately feed through to higher consumer spending and boost growth.
Larry Summers, the former US Treasury Secretary, said it would be a mistake to dismiss the current financial squall as froth. Markets often sense a gathering storm when policy-makers are still asleep at the wheel. He has long argued that the world economy is so far out of kilter that it takes permanent financial bubbles to keep growth going, an inherently unstable structure.
Yet there is something strange about the latest events. Austerity is finally over in Europe and fiscal policy in the US this year will be expansionary.

China’s slowdown hit its bottom in June and a fitful recovery has been building, driven by extra budget spending and credit growth. While the composite PMI indicator for manufacturing and services slipped back last month, it is still higher in the summer.
David Owen, from Jefferies, said there is a “weird disconnect” between the economic fundamentals and the market malaise.
“There is no evidence of anything rolling over in the US. Europe is clearly recovering and the M3 money supply in Germany is growing at almost 10pc, which normally means stronger activity,” he said.
Bank of America said panic selling had triggered its “contrarian buy signal”, since 88pc of global equity indexes are now trading below their 200-day and 50-day moving averages. The "Bull & Bear" index is at an ultra-negative level of 1.3.

It said a “big tradable multi-week rally awaits” but requires catalysts, above all a stabilisation of the Chinese yuan and oil, better PMI data and a halt to the rising dollar.
The risk is that this market storm drags on long enough to hit investment, regardless of what the economic data should imply. At the end of the day, market psychology can itself become an economic "fundamental".
Pessimists warn that unless there is a batch of irrefutably good data from China over the next two or three months, the sell-off could become self-fulfilling and quickly metamorphose into the next global crisis.
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Re: Oil prices ready for collapse?

Postby Bernie Sanders on Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:06 am

If you have stocks in oil/gas/coal industries, might be best to dump them.
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Re: Oil prices ready for collapse?

Postby warmonger1981 on Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:21 am

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bearis ... 2016-01-11

J.P. Morgan Chase has turned its back on the stock market: For the first time in seven years, the investment bank is urging investors to sell stocks on any bounce.

“Our view is that the risk-reward for equities has worsened materially. In contrast to the past seven years, when we advocated using the dips as buying opportunities, we believe the regime has transitioned to one of selling any rally,” Mislav Matejka, an equity strategist at J.P. Morgan, said in a report.


Aside from technical indicators, expectations of anemic corporate earnings combined with the downward trajectory in U.S. manufacturing activity and a continued weakness in commodities are raising red flags.


“We fear that the incoming fourth-quarter reporting season won’t be able to provide much reassurance for stocks,” he said.

Expectations for earnings are so bearish that the hurdle rate—the minimum rate of return on an investment that makes it worth the risk—for fourth-quarter results is now minus 4%, compared with plus 5% several months earlier.

“If this were to materialize, it would be the weakest quarter for EPS delivery so far in the upcycle,” said Matejka.

Further adding to the grim outlook is the slowdown in the manufacturing sector, which pushed J.P. Morgan’s profit-margin proxy — the gap between pricing power and the wage costs — into negative territory in the fourth quarter for the first time since 2008.

The Institute for Supply Management’s manufacturing index, released last week, dipped to 48.2% in December from 48.6% in November, the lowest since the Great Recession.

The positive correlation between oil prices and earnings on top of the sustained gains in the U.S. dollar — which has an inverse correlation to results — will also weigh on the market, he added.

J.P. Morgan
U.S. oil futures slid under $32 a barrel on Monday for the first time since December 2003 with February West Texas Intermediate crude CLG6, -4.81% dropping 5.9% to $31.19 a barrel. February Brent crude, the global crude benchmark UK:LCOG6 was off 6% to $31.45 a barrel.

Meanwhile, the ICE U.S. Dollar index DXY, -0.13% a gauge for the greenback’s strength against a basket of six currencies, has risen more than 7% over the past 12 months, a trend it is expected to maintain until the middle of 2016.

Read: Oil could fall toward $20, but not for the reason you think

Among other analysts, Katie Stockton, chief technical strategist at BTIG, is likewise pessimistic.

“The SPX is set up for an oversold bounce this week, with seven of our market internal measures at contrarian extremes,” she said. “But we are unconvinced that a shakeout is underway.”

Stockton added that she is more cautious on the market’s intermediate outlook in the wake of last week’s 6% rout, as the sharp loss in momentum suggests that the next support level of 1,872 touched in September may be in jeopardy in the next couple of months.

BTIG
“Fortunately, we expect an oversold bounce to afford a better selling opportunity in the days ahead,” she said.

Goldman Sachs on Monday reiterated its S&P 500 target of 2,100 for 2016 despite the wobbly start.

“The prospective price gain from the current level equals 9% but rises to 11% when dividends are included,” said David Kostin, Goldman’s chief U.S. equity strategist.

Dividends have accounted for 78% of the market’s total return since 1965, he noted.

The S&P 500 SPX, -2.16% is down 0.6% to 1,909, failing to hold early Monday gains. The Dow Jones Industrial Average DJIA, -2.39% is down 0.4% to 16,280 and the Nasdaq Composite COMP, -2.74% has dropped 1.1% to 4,594.

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Re: Oil prices ready for collapse?

Postby Bernie Sanders on Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:54 pm

I'd rather walk bare foot over broken glass than take advise from the Goldman Sachs criminals.
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Re: Oil prices ready for collapse?

Postby rishaed on Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:50 am

Bernie Sanders wrote:I'd rather walk bare foot over broken glass than take advise from the Goldman Sachs criminals.

Thats why you're masquerading as a politician... while they actually invest.
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Re: Oil prices ready for collapse?

Postby Bernie Sanders on Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:49 am

rishaed wrote:
Bernie Sanders wrote:I'd rather walk bare foot over broken glass than take advise from the Goldman Sachs criminals.

Thats why you're masquerading as a politician... while they actually invest.


Goldman Sachs steal, lie and corrupt. They recently paid a 5 billion dollar fine, yet not one CEO goes to jail? We can throw kids in jail for marijuana, but have these "to large to fail" Banks destroy our economy and millions of families and the CEOs get away with the financial crime of the century?
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Re: Oil prices ready for collapse?

Postby riskllama on Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:17 pm

I agree with Bernie on this one. they should have thrown some, if not all, of those fuckers in jail. probly a large portion of the SEC, as well.
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Re: Oil prices ready for collapse?

Postby rishaed on Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:28 pm

Bernie Sanders wrote:
rishaed wrote:
Bernie Sanders wrote:I'd rather walk bare foot over broken glass than take advise from the Goldman Sachs criminals.

Thats why you're masquerading as a politician... while they actually invest.


Goldman Sachs steal, lie and corrupt. They recently paid a 5 billion dollar fine, yet not one CEO goes to jail? We can throw kids in jail for marijuana, but have these "to large to fail" Banks destroy our economy and millions of families and the CEOs get away with the financial crime of the century?

I guess there isn't so much difference between politicians and them then. I could copy paste your message and insert Politicians into GS's & CEO's and it still makes perfect sense :-^ :-^ . Also The To large to fail Banks are having scale down right now. (According to the WSJ.)
Very well... Carry on.
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Re: Oil prices ready for collapse?

Postby Beast Of Burson on Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:10 pm

riskllama wrote:I agree with Bernie on this one. they should have thrown some, if not all, of those fuckers in jail. probly a large portion of the SEC, as well.


The US Gov is too weak to do anything about it. All of those silver spoon dickheads are all sleeping together. The agenda for the US's wealthiest (only 6% of the pop btw), is to keep control of the Gov.

Simply put, they can get the Gov to jump through hoops, turn a blind eye, etc., when they threaten to move their operations out of country. That in turn would cause a HUGE unemployment situation the Feds AND the State Gov's would have to deal with. It would surely break the bank so to speak.

The US Gov is a weak coward of an organized crime syndicate, with no way of controlling the rich corporations that have more money then the Gov can even begin to muster.

Yeah, they will use scapegoats every once in a while. Of course it's only to calm the masses, and ensure a re-election for themselves. Then it's "back to the same old shit" once they do.

They all talk the talk, but not one politician has ever walked the walk. If they did, they would be stonewalled at every turn when they wanted or needed something.

The rich don't go to prisons and walk around with general population criminals, they are kept in a "white collar" prison where they still get steak and lobster dinners.

If you pay, you walk away.

If you're poor, they lock the door.
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Re: Oil prices ready for collapse?

Postby Bernie Sanders on Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:34 am

Beast Of Burson wrote:
riskllama wrote:I agree with Bernie on this one. they should have thrown some, if not all, of those fuckers in jail. probly a large portion of the SEC, as well.


The US Gov is too weak to do anything about it. All of those silver spoon dickheads are all sleeping together. The agenda for the US's wealthiest (only 6% of the pop btw), is to keep control of the Gov.

Simply put, they can get the Gov to jump through hoops, turn a blind eye, etc., when they threaten to move their operations out of country. That in turn would cause a HUGE unemployment situation the Feds AND the State Gov's would have to deal with. It would surely break the bank so to speak.

The US Gov is a weak coward of an organized crime syndicate, with no way of controlling the rich corporations that have more money then the Gov can even begin to muster.

Yeah, they will use scapegoats every once in a while. Of course it's only to calm the masses, and ensure a re-election for themselves. Then it's "back to the same old shit" once they do.

They all talk the talk, but not one politician has ever walked the walk. If they did, they would be stonewalled at every turn when they wanted or needed something.

The rich don't go to prisons and walk around with general population criminals, they are kept in a "white collar" prison where they still get steak and lobster dinners.

If you pay, you walk away.

If you're poor, they lock the door.


It's a problem the world over:

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/01/18/the-worlds-richest-62-people-are-as-wealthy-as-the-poorest-50-percent/21298833/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl41%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D859328806_htmlws-sb-bb
The world's richest 62 people are as wealthy as the poorest 50 percent
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Re: Oil prices ready for collapse?

Postby ShyRat on Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:21 am

Hi threre!!!

yes the OPEC oil prices are on a collapse and are on a all time low of around $20 per barrel there was a fleeting rebound in oil prices, as tensions between Saudi Arabia and Iran briefly raised geopolitical risk in the oil-rich Persian Gulf.And if the situation still goes the same there would come a time when there would be no jobs left for the people.A barrel of oil now sells for the lowest price in 12 years, and that's really to worry for.
Its a world wide problem and probably the Chinese economy low growth has paid a part in it.
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Re: Oil prices ready for collapse?

Postby Bernie Sanders on Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:10 pm

ShyRat wrote:Hi threre!!!

yes the OPEC oil prices are on a collapse and are on a all time low of around $20 per barrel there was a fleeting rebound in oil prices, as tensions between Saudi Arabia and Iran briefly raised geopolitical risk in the oil-rich Persian Gulf.And if the situation still goes the same there would come a time when there would be no jobs left for the people.A barrel of oil now sells for the lowest price in 12 years, and that's really to worry for.
Its a world wide problem and probably the Chinese economy low growth has paid a part in it.



You mean $30 per barrel.
Right now oil has rebounded by speculators to over $30 per barrel, but the price will continue dropping, as Iran is giving large discounts to grab market share.
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