We got some good kids in England!

[tzor]

I don't see them as the same thing though. My being forced to recite the phrase 'I'm under God' is not the same thing. Mine was not part of a lesson. Maybe they would be the same if the article actually gave some specific details, but as it stands, they aren't.

I'm sorry but that's bullshit, plain and simple. The only time "I" is involved is when you pledge allegience to both the flag and the republic. It it the "republic" not the person pledging that is "under God." Yes I suppose you would prefer a government that was "above everything;" all supreme and in total domination of every aspect of your life.

[jay_a2j]

I don't see them as the same thing though. My being forced to recite the phrase 'I'm under God' is not the same thing. Mine was not part of a lesson. Maybe they would be the same if the article actually gave some specific details, but as it stands, they aren't.

I'm sorry but that's bullshit, plain and simple. The only time "I" is involved is when you pledge allegience to both the flag and the republic. It it the "republic" not the person pledging that is "under God." Yes I suppose you would prefer a government that was "above everything;" all supreme and in total domination of every aspect of your life.

Good point.

[Juan_Bottom]

I don't see them as the same thing though. My being forced to recite the phrase 'I'm under God' is not the same thing. Mine was not part of a lesson. Maybe they would be the same if the article actually gave some specific details, but as it stands, they aren't.

I'm sorry but that's bullshit, plain and simple. The only time "I" is involved is when you pledge allegience to both the flag and the republic. It it the "republic" not the person pledging that is "under God." Yes I suppose you would prefer a government that was "above everything;" all supreme and in total domination of every aspect of your life.

What???? TZOR, for really????

Then why go out of your way to make sure everyone has to say "under God." I pledge allegiance to the republic under God(short version). I am in no way under God. What was wrong with the old pledge, before they added" under God"? Try a little apathy here dude.

Yes I suppose you would prefer a government that was "above everything;" all supreme and in total domination of every aspect of your life.

Come on TZOR, I would prefer it said "under the people" or something like that. Seems much more appropriate doesn't it? You and I know that this is an infringment upon chrch and state. Especially since your Gods name is God. But I'm not asking for anyone to admit to anything.
I never tried to remove the pledge or anything, I only refused to say it. It's not like I am attacking anybody here. And I still don't think I am being hypocritical, though I don't know if that was your secondary point.

[tzor]

Then why go out of your way to make sure everyone has to say "under God." I pledge allegiance to the republic under God(short version). I am in no way under God. What was wrong with the old pledge, before they added" under God"? Try a little apathy here dude.

Commies, my good sir, with their enforced athiestic state, forcing thier belief on the unwilling masses not only in thier own country but potentially throughout the world! That was why the Knights of Columbus petitioned the president to add the words, to indicate our government is under a higher power than it is and is not a supreme tyrant over the people.

To be honest, we learned our lesson with that one, which is why you don't see us pushing to add the following to the end of the pledge ... "born and unborn."

[InkL0sed]

Then why go out of your way to make sure everyone has to say "under God." I pledge allegiance to the republic under God(short version). I am in no way under God. What was wrong with the old pledge, before they added" under God"? Try a little apathy here dude.

Commies, my good sir, with their enforced athiestic state, forcing thier belief on the unwilling masses not only in thier own country but potentially throughout the world! That was why the Knights of Columbus petitioned the president to add the words, to indicate our government is under a higher power than it is and is not a supreme tyrant over the people.

To be honest, we learned our lesson with that one, which is why you don't see us pushing to add the following to the end of the pledge ... "born and unborn."

Right, and gestures like that sure went a long way to winning the Cold War.

[Juan_Bottom]

Then why go out of your way to make sure everyone has to say "under God." I pledge allegiance to the republic under God(short version). I am in no way under God. What was wrong with the old pledge, before they added" under God"? Try a little apathy here dude.

Commies, my good sir, with their enforced athiestic state, forcing thier belief on the unwilling masses not only in thier own country but potentially throughout the world! That was why the Knights of Columbus petitioned the president to add the words, to indicate our government is under a higher power than it is and is not a supreme tyrant over the people.

To be honest, we learned our lesson with that one, which is why you don't see us pushing to add the following to the end of the pledge ... "born and unborn."

Ok, I get that that is where the pledge came from. But instead of enforcing an Atheistic state's doctrine, now you (in a way) are enforcing a Christian one. Next petition, have it changed to "under the people" and let that be the "higher power" that the government derives its power from. Straight up, yo.

[InkL0sed]

Then why go out of your way to make sure everyone has to say "under God." I pledge allegiance to the republic under God(short version). I am in no way under God. What was wrong with the old pledge, before they added" under God"? Try a little apathy here dude.

Commies, my good sir, with their enforced athiestic state, forcing thier belief on the unwilling masses not only in thier own country but potentially throughout the world! That was why the Knights of Columbus petitioned the president to add the words, to indicate our government is under a higher power than it is and is not a supreme tyrant over the people.

To be honest, we learned our lesson with that one, which is why you don't see us pushing to add the following to the end of the pledge ... "born and unborn."

Ok, I get that that is where the pledge came from. But instead of enforcing an Atheistic state's doctrine, now you (in a way) are enforcing a Christian one. Next petition, have it changed to "under the people" and let that be the "higher power" that the government derives its power from. Straight up, yo.

Nah, I'd rather it was just cut completely.

Anyway, I find it offensive that they expect us to say it every day in school. I mean seriously, it's a pledge. Since when does it only last a day?

[Juan_Bottom]

Nah, I'd rather it was just cut completely.

Anyway, I find it offensive that they expect us to say it every day in school. I mean seriously, it's a pledge. Since when does it only last a day?

I think that's another communist part......

[tzor]

Ok, I get that that is where the pledge came from. But instead of enforcing an Atheistic state's doctrine, now you (in a way) are enforcing a Christian one. Next petition, have it changed to "under the people" and let that be the "higher power" that the government derives its power from. Straight up, yo.

Because that isn't right either. "Under the people" is more of a "democracy" which means that the people can do whatever the heck they please. But we were founded under Jefferson's (that beloved deist) notion of inalienable rights which in turn are ... well they just are.

[tzor]

Anyway, I find it offensive that they expect us to say it every day in school. I mean seriously, it's a pledge. Since when does it only last a day?

The general custom is to say it at the start of events, meetings, and so forth. Sessions of Congress open with the pledge. So it is more logical to say that each day is another "session" of school.

[InkL0sed]

Anyway, I find it offensive that they expect us to say it every day in school. I mean seriously, it's a pledge. Since when does it only last a day?

The general custom is to say it at the start of events, meetings, and so forth. Sessions of Congress open with the pledge. So it is more logical to say that each day is another "session" of school.

My point remains...

[Juan_Bottom]

Ok, I get that that is where the pledge came from. But instead of enforcing an Atheistic state's doctrine, now you (in a way) are enforcing a Christian one. Next petition, have it changed to "under the people" and let that be the "higher power" that the government derives its power from. Straight up, yo.

Because that isn't right either. "Under the people" is more of a "democracy" which means that the people can do whatever the heck they please. But we were founded under Jefferson's (that beloved deist) notion of inalienable rights which in turn are ... well they just are.

I seem to remember another important something that starts with "We the people...," no one complains there.

Besides, as it stands it is a clear violation of church and state.

[muy_thaiguy]

Ok, I get that that is where the pledge came from. But instead of enforcing an Atheistic state's doctrine, now you (in a way) are enforcing a Christian one. Next petition, have it changed to "under the people" and let that be the "higher power" that the government derives its power from. Straight up, yo.

Because that isn't right either. "Under the people" is more of a "democracy" which means that the people can do whatever the heck they please. But we were founded under Jefferson's (that beloved deist) notion of inalienable rights which in turn are ... well they just are.

I seem to remember another important something that starts with "We the people...," no one complains there.

Besides, as it stands it is a clear violation of church and state.

This must be said: The only thing pertaining to Religion and the Government in the Constitution is that no single religion will be made into the "church of state" if you will. Other then that, it says nothing on matters of religion and government.

Carry on.

[tzor]

Besides, as it stands it is a clear violation of church and state.

Actually it is not a clear violation because it has nothing to do with a "church."
References to the almighty does not impose the state's will upon any "church."
Nor does it impose any church's will upon the "state."

Being required to say the pledge (even without the "under God") might on the other hand. There is a famous case within the courts concerning the religious communities who considered pledging allegience to a flag a form of idolitry. Even the constitution allowed people to "affirm" instead of "solemnly swear" in the case of taking up public office.

I seem to remember another important something that starts with "We the people...," no one complains there.

The reason it says "We the People" is because they wanted the document to be more than a statement of the delegates at the Constitutional Convention but a statement from all the people of the United States.

[Juan_Bottom]

The reason it says "We the People" is because they wanted the document to be more than a statement of the delegates at the Constitutional Convention but a statement from all the people of the United States.

Exactly, and who is the pledge for? The government of the people, by the people???? The people!

Actually it is not a clear violation because it has nothing to do with a "church."
References to the almighty does not impose the state's will upon any "church."
Nor does it impose any church's will upon the "state."

Come on TZOR, when your gods name is God, then this seems like a no brainer. It's not like a bunch of Muslims and Satanists took part in adding the phrase. Hide behind your cloak and dagger meanings all that you like. But everyone knows what it means!

Didn't you say that the Knights of Columbus were instrimental in adding the phrase "under god?"

Being required to say the pledge (even without the "under God") might on the other hand. There is a famous case within the courts concerning the religious communities who considered pledging allegience to a flag a form of idolitry. Even the constitution allowed people to "affirm" instead of "solemnly swear" in the case of taking up public office.

That's fine with me...!

[tzor]

Come on TZOR, when your gods name is God, then this seems like a no brainer.

Last time I checked that wasn't his name. God is only uppercase only in the same manner as when referring to the President of the United States one writes "president" with an upercase "P." We believe that God is trinity; the Father's name wasn't even shppposed to be said in conversation, but it is the Hebrew equivalent for "I am." The Son's name is Jesus, (of Nazereth although that's normally dropped and his title "anointed" in Greek is used instead). The Spirit doesn't really have a name.

Checking the history of the pledge, before WWII and the general hatred of all things remotely Nazi the pledge only started with the hand over the heart, but at the "to the flag" the hand was uplifted (although with the palm up) in something that might have vaguely looked like a Nazi salute towards the "Grand old Flag" (That "high flying rag" according to Mr. Cohan but he had to change that word due to protests.)

[Juan_Bottom]

Come on TZOR, when your gods name is God, then this seems like a no brainer.

Last time I checked that wasn't his name. God is only uppercase only in the same manner as when referring to the President of the United States one writes "president" with an upercase "P." We believe that God is trinity; the Father's name wasn't even shppposed to be said in conversation, but it is the Hebrew equivalent for "I am." The Son's name is Jesus, (of Nazereth although that's normally dropped and his title "anointed" in Greek is used instead). The Spirit doesn't really have a name.

Checking the history of the pledge, before WWII and the general hatred of all things remotely Nazi the pledge only started with the hand over the heart, but at the "to the flag" the hand was uplifted (although with the palm up) in something that might have vaguely looked like a Nazi salute towards the "Grand old Flag" (That "high flying rag" according to Mr. Cohan but he had to change that word due to protests.)

That's cool, I just read about the history of the pledge like three weeks ago. It was interesting to me for some reason. But anyway, the only part of the pledge I have ever had a problem with is the phrase "under God." I hope that everyone can honestly see why. I'm not asking for anyone to agree with me, just understand where I'm coming from.

[Nickbaldwin]

I would also refuse to say it.

[icedagger]

This thread was entertaining until tzor started posting

[Nickbaldwin]

This thread was entertaining until tzor started posting

[Juan_Bottom]

This thread was entertaining until tzor started posting

I like it better.....