Nicaraguan election

[qeee1]

People there warned by USA that if Ortega (a left wing candidate and former revolutionary) is elected, USA will cut aid.

Firstly this is rediculous from a country supposedly championing the spreading of democracy.

Secondly it was completely fucking ignored by the media, who were only interested in the democrats winning the house. Reuter's agency quietly report:

US officials have warned that US aid could drop under a new Ortega led government

could drop, as in will be cut.

In the end he won, but this still pisses me off.

[Stopper]

Firstly this is rediculous from a country supposedly championing the spreading of democracy.

I don't understand, first you were talking about the USA. Which is this country that spreads democracy?

[strike wolf]

Hmm...interesting.

[OnlyAmbrose]

Secondly it was completely ******* ignored by the media, who were only interested in the democrats winning the house. Reuter's agency quietly report:

To be fair to the media (which is not something I relish doing), the results of an election in the United States will probably have far more of an effect on the world than US intervention in the election of Nicaragua. And generally the media tries to screen the stuff that the most people will be affected by... and US government is generally the end-all in affecting people.

[qeee1]

I take your point, admittedly the US election is going to dominate media proceedings. But still the US threatening to withraw aid from the second poorest nation in the western hemisphere because of who the people choose to vote for is pretty big news also.

I mean how many of you even heard of it?

[OnlyAmbrose]

not me, and probably for the reasons stated in my previous post

[OnlyAmbrose]

But to be fair to the US, who ever heard of America funding a communist regime?

*thinks really hard for precedents*

Nope... can't think of any, though I dont doubt the possibility I suppose...

[Stopper]

Ortega, communist?

[strike wolf]

What the world needs now is to regulate the media. ever since they realized they can make more by making the president look bad during the Nixon administration, as opposed to hiding problems with the president for the good of the country, they've done what they can to make things look worse than they actually are.

[qeee1]

But to be fair to the US, who ever heard of America funding a communist regime?

*thinks really hard for precedents*

Nope... can't think of any, though I dont doubt the possibility I suppose...

Firstly the edit button is your friend. Forum snobbery aside, the election of Ortega doesn't amount to a communist regieme. That's sensationalism at it's worst. He's already stated he intends to maintain free trade with the USA, and was elected on a centre left platform, of helping the poor.

EDIT: A poor who have been let then by the last few US backed right wing politicians, who have been involved in a number of corruption scandals.

[Stopper]

as opposed to hiding problems with the president for the good of the country

You might want to reconsider that statement - it's bordering on the fascistic!

[qeee1]

as opposed to hiding problems with the president for the good of the country

You might want to reconsider that statement - it's bordering on the fascistic!

*is also shocked at that statement*

[subdork]

"His guide, he says, is God, not Karl Marx." (http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/s ... 74,00.html)

awww... ain't that heart-warming.

[subdork]

A poor who have been let then by the last few US backed right wing politicians, who have been involved in a number of corruption scandals.

"In Ortega’s last days as president, through a series of legislative acts known as “The Piñata”, estates that had been seized by the Sandinista government (some valued at millions and even billions US$) became the private property of various FSLN officials, including Ortega himself."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ortega


"Shortly after the Sandinistas ousted dictator Anastasio Somoza in 1979, Morales' wife came home to find Ortega's wife, Rosario Murillo, occupying her house and wearing the family's clothes and jewelry. Morales spent years fighting for restitution."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/s ... 74,00.html

[Stopper]

A poor who have been let then by the last few US backed right wing politicians, who have been involved in a number of corruption scandals.

"In Ortega’s last days as president, through a series of legislative acts known as “The Piñata”, estates that had been seized by the Sandinista government (some valued at millions and even billions US$) became the private property of various FSLN officials, including Ortega himself."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ortega


"Shortly after the Sandinistas ousted dictator Anastasio Somoza in 1979, Morales' wife came home to find Ortega's wife, Rosario Murillo, occupying her house and wearing the family's clothes and jewelry. Morales spent years fighting for restitution."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/s ... 74,00.html

Reading all that, it's lucky we have the USA to step in when the people don't choose the right candidate! That's democracy, folks!

[qeee1]

"In Ortega’s last days as president, through a series of legislative acts known as “The Piñata”, estates that had been seized by the Sandinista government (some valued at millions and even billions US$) became the private property of various FSLN officials, including Ortega himself."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ortega

Those laws also guaranteed the rights of squatters and thousands of small farmers...

"Shortly after the Sandinistas ousted dictator Anastasio Somoza in 1979, Morales' wife came home to find Ortega's wife, Rosario Murillo, occupying her house and wearing the family's clothes and jewelry. Morales spent years fighting for restitution."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/s ... 74,00.html

...

the rest of that quote:

Recently, he got it: Ortega returned works of art, a desk that was a family heirloom, and other things.

Shortly after, Morales agreed to run as his vice president, saying he preferred ``the strange to the unknown.''

``We agreed on peace 18 years ago, and it's time to heal that wound,'' Morales told The Associated Press. ``Maybe together we can get people to forgive and forget and move on.''

Anyway my point is not that Ortega has a perfectly clear record... you can slander him or endorse him, this isn't a canvassing attempt, this is a comment on America's actions.

My point is exactly as stopper said:

Reading all that, it's lucky we have the USA to step in when the people don't choose the right candidate! That's democracy, folks!

And also that it was ignored by the media.

[strike wolf]

as opposed to hiding problems with the president for the good of the country

You might want to reconsider that statement - it's bordering on the fascistic!

I thought I had deleted that last part as it would just look fascist as you said. Oh well. Anyways what I meant is that very few people knew that FDR's polio was so advanced until he died of it. The media for the most part knew but agreed to keep it secret as to not let the president seem weak. Similar things happened in other presidencies. But mainly starting with the Nixon presidency (not defending Nixon just stating something) the press started to make things look as bad as possible because it brought in better reviews. now alot of the stuff Bush has done has been noteworthy for media but for example during the Clinton administration the whole Monica Lewinsky scandal really got blown out of proportion. Looking back JFK had done similar stuff but was never called out by the media in the same proportions.

[subdork]

"In Ortega’s last days as president, through a series of legislative acts known as “The Piñata”, estates that had been seized by the Sandinista government (some valued at millions and even billions US$) became the private property of various FSLN officials, including Ortega himself."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ortega

Those laws also guaranteed the rights of squatters and thousands of small farmers...

Yeah, I mean, we wouldn't want inequality... except for the communist leaders... they deserve more. And as far as guaranteeing the rights of squatters, that couldn't be further from the truth. The government has been entangled in a mess of lawsuits and multiple land claims for years.
When the US says that Ortega's election might decrease economic aid and investment, he is referring to a decrease in investor confidence as well as the possibility that the country will revert to an economic style that loses the support of the World Bank, the EU, the US, and the WTO

I don't think that Ortega will do anything too stupid this time though, and I don't think there will be a decrease in economic aid. Investors will probably be a little more hesitant, however. You can't really blame them.


For more on how badly the Sandinistas screwed up Nicaragua, please ask Jimmy Carter:

Property disputes and an uncertain legal framework for property rights impede investment and economic recovery, and generate political conflict, sometimes violent, in Nicaragua. Stemming from the redistribution of land and property during the Sandinista government, the issue today is a complex one involving groups as varied as peasants waiting for clear title for land granted under agrarian reform, Sandinista and contra ex-combatants seeking land in the countryside, and prior owners from Nicaragua and abroad demanding the return of or compensation for houses, factories and land confiscated, expropriated or abandoned in the past. Resolving the problem requires addressing both fundamental philosophical debates over whose rights to property should take precedence, as well as administrative and legal impediments to sorting out multiple claims to individual pieces of property and modernizing the titling system.

The size of the problem is indicated in the following statistics: Owners whose land was confiscated or expropriated since 1979 are now demanding the return or compensation for the equivalent of two-thirds of all the property acquired by the State for the agrarian reform, and twelve percent of the land mass of Nicaragua. Over 5,200 prior owners filed claims for 15,985 pieces of property 1 , and nearly 112,000 beneficiaries of agrarian and urban reforms are being reviewed for eligibility to receive formal title. By 1992, roughly 40% of the households of the country found themselves in conflict or potential conflict over land-tenure due to overlapping claims by different people on the same piece of property.
http://www.cartercenter.org/documents/1199.pdf

[OnlyAmbrose]

But to be fair to the US, who ever heard of America funding a communist regime?

*thinks really hard for precedents*

Nope... can't think of any, though I dont doubt the possibility I suppose...

Firstly the edit button is your friend. Forum snobbery aside, the election of Ortega doesn't amount to a communist regieme. That's sensationalism at it's worst. He's already stated he intends to maintain free trade with the USA, and was elected on a centre left platform, of helping the poor.

EDIT: A poor who have been let then by the last few US backed right wing politicians, who have been involved in a number of corruption scandals.

Sorry about the double post, I wasn't intending to be snobbish

And sorry for my lack of information on the topic, I must admit a lack of insight into Nicaraguan politics. I assumed you meant communist regime when I saw the following words:

left

revolutionary

[reverend_kyle]

as opposed to hiding problems with the president for the good of the country

You might want to reconsider that statement - it's bordering on the fascistic!

I'd say having strike wolf in power is worse than having a "communist regime"

[reverend_kyle]

But to be fair to the US, who ever heard of America funding a communist regime?

*thinks really hard for precedents*

Nope... can't think of any, though I dont doubt the possibility I suppose...

Firstly the edit button is your friend. Forum snobbery aside, the election of Ortega doesn't amount to a communist regieme. That's sensationalism at it's worst. He's already stated he intends to maintain free trade with the USA, and was elected on a centre left platform, of helping the poor.

EDIT: A poor who have been let then by the last few US backed right wing politicians, who have been involved in a number of corruption scandals.

That is the best way to help the poor.. because the big american coorporations find that they can use maquilladors sp? basically sweatshops to hurt and exploit the poor farmers and if the governments of south american nations try and make a law that raises minimum wage or helps the workers they get their asses sued on account of nafta... and people wonder why we've overthrown the government of almost every nation south of here(besides costa rica). Its almost like we would kick the europeans ass for breaking the monroe doctrine but we sure as hell have no problem with invading countries in the americas.

[qeee1]

Yeah, I mean, we wouldn't want inequality... except for the communist leaders... they deserve more. And as far as guaranteeing the rights of squatters, that couldn't be further from the truth. The government has been entangled in a mess of lawsuits and multiple land claims for years.
When the US says that Ortega's election might decrease economic aid and investment, he is referring to a decrease in investor confidence as well as the possibility that the country will revert to an economic style that loses the support of the World Bank, the EU, the US, and the WTO

That's not what's meant. It's not about investor confidence it's about US foreign aid.

I don't think that Ortega will do anything too stupid this time though, and I don't think there will be a decrease in economic aid. Investors will probably be a little more hesitant, however. You can't really blame them.


For more on how badly the Sandinistas screwed up Nicaragua, please ask Jimmy Carter:

Property disputes and an uncertain legal framework for property rights impede investment and economic recovery, and generate political conflict, sometimes violent, in Nicaragua. Stemming from the redistribution of land and property during the Sandinista government, the issue today is a complex one involving groups as varied as peasants waiting for clear title for land granted under agrarian reform, Sandinista and contra ex-combatants seeking land in the countryside, and prior owners from Nicaragua and abroad demanding the return of or compensation for houses, factories and land confiscated, expropriated or abandoned in the past. Resolving the problem requires addressing both fundamental philosophical debates over whose rights to property should take precedence, as well as administrative and legal impediments to sorting out multiple claims to individual pieces of property and modernizing the titling system.

The size of the problem is indicated in the following statistics: Owners whose land was confiscated or expropriated since 1979 are now demanding the return or compensation for the equivalent of two-thirds of all the property acquired by the State for the agrarian reform, and twelve percent of the land mass of Nicaragua. Over 5,200 prior owners filed claims for 15,985 pieces of property 1 , and nearly 112,000 beneficiaries of agrarian and urban reforms are being reviewed for eligibility to receive formal title. By 1992, roughly 40% of the households of the country found themselves in conflict or potential conflict over land-tenure due to overlapping claims by different people on the same piece of property.
http://www.cartercenter.org/documents/1199.pdf

Way to once again completely ignore the point of my post. Yes the laws have led to big problems, as have those who tried to change the laws since. Neither the rich nor the poor will willingly give up land, land reform in Ireland took 100s of years.

Anyway like I said it's not about whether the laws then were right or not. It's about America's actions now.

As regards South America, I will say that it's no suprise that now when the US military is otherwise occupied you see a growing leftist support in S.A...

PS. Only Ambrose, I meant that I was being snobby for dissing doubles posts.

[subdork]

Yeah, I mean, we wouldn't want inequality... except for the communist leaders... they deserve more. And as far as guaranteeing the rights of squatters, that couldn't be further from the truth. The government has been entangled in a mess of lawsuits and multiple land claims for years.
When the US says that Ortega's election might decrease economic aid and investment, he is referring to a decrease in investor confidence as well as the possibility that the country will revert to an economic style that loses the support of the World Bank, the EU, the US, and the WTO

That's not what's meant. It's not about investor confidence it's about US foreign aid.

Anyway like I said it's not about whether the laws then were right or not. It's about America's actions now.

Then why did you bother bringing up corruption in the right wing governments? Why did you bother bringing up that land redistribution helped the poor?

I was trying to point out reasons as to why the US might be wary of Ortega.

As regards South America, I will say that it's no suprise that now when the US military is otherwise occupied you see a growing leftist support in S.A...

I would say it has more to do with the end of the cold war. When was the last time the US was in Latin America? Oh, yeah, it was Panama in 1989 after General Manuel Noriega refused to accept the results of elections there.

It also has a little to do with the fact that Chavez buys good will in other latin american countries with oil, specifically Nicaragua. As opposed to the US which just buys goodwill with cold hard cash