I should be put to death...

[Neoteny]

And you should too. Hear me out.

We killed Jesus.

Jesus died for our sins, correct? And we are lowly sinners. We killed Jesus. QED. Jesus' death was a direct response to not only sinners of his day, but us future sinners as well. So what does this mean?

After you get past the first four commandments about not being a dick to god and pretending he's not there, and right after not being a dick to your parents, the sixth commandment (depending on your version) says don't kill people. Biblical punishment for murder? Exile (to where, exactly?) and capital punishment. Yea or nay?

It was his plan to lay down his life for us. In order for people to be reconciled with God there had to be a sacrifice for our sin.

Capital punishment, "you have have no sin cast the first stone".

To HC, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

Sure... pick that verse to justify your opinion...

[Neoteny]

Jesus died for our sins, correct? And we are lowly sinners. We killed Jesus.

No.

There is an assumption under there that is not guarenteed correct. Let's change the anaology a bit. A firefighter goes into a burning building to bring out a person alive. In the process he suffers a fatal wound. Did the person kill the firefighter? One could argue no.

But we are knowingly sinning. If a person runs into the burning building for the sole purpose of bringing the firefighter in, isn't that person responsible?

Using this analogy the only way Jesus could "save" us was to suffer and die; a choice freely made.

Second analogy assume you have a terrorist. "Give me a nuclear bomb (which could kill millions) or I will shoot this innocent person." If you don't give the terrorist the nuclear bomb and he kills the innocent are you guilty of of killing the innocnt? One could also argue no.

I don't think this applies in the same way. I think your first analogy was better. My friend used the "kids playing in the street about to get hit by a truck" which is closer to your firefighter one.

This is the analogy of the angry vengeful god. God punishing his son for the sins of everyone. I reject this idea but it also leads down to a "not guilty" plea.

[tzor]

But we are knowingly sinning. If a person runs into the burning building for the sole purpose of bringing the firefighter in, isn't that person responsible?

In some cases we are knowingly sinning. But we are also a product of our own fallen nature with a tendency to sin, knowing what sin is but not fully understanding the consequences of sin. So the analogy is less of running into the building but being in the building in the first place. Thus there is an indirect but not a direct responsibility.

[Neoteny]

But we are knowingly sinning. If a person runs into the burning building for the sole purpose of bringing the firefighter in, isn't that person responsible?

In some cases we are knowingly sinning. But we are also a product of our own fallen nature with a tendency to sin, knowing what sin is but not fully understanding the consequences of sin. So the analogy is less of running into the building but being in the building in the first place. Thus there is an indirect but not a direct responsibility.

Jeez, religious people are so depressing. Self-deprecation is so unbecoming to me. So it's more like fighting off the firefighter?

[The Weird One]

speak for yourself mate. I've never sinned in my life.

hypocrisy...it's priceless.

[jonesthecurl]

speak for yourself mate. I've never sinned in my life.

hypocrisy...it's priceless.

No, I'll sell you mine for a buck fifty.

[heavycola]

speak for yourself mate. I've never sinned in my life.

hypocrisy...it's priceless.

Unlucky pal, cos I get to cast the first stone.

:thunk:

[mr. incrediball]

Capital punishment, "you have have no sin cast the first stone".

To HC, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

don't these two contradict each other? assuming "cast the first stone" means from birth, and "all" takes newborns into account.