Conquer Club

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:21 am**

Draft 2:

Past Drafts: 1

Word List:

Letter placements are not finalized, so don't do any serious word hunting yet!

All words are from the Cambridge Dictionary Of American English.

3 letters:

4 letters:

5 letters:

6 letters:

7 letters:

8 letters:

Original Post:

Here's a map that combines mathematical logic with verbal intelligence. Can you Baffle your opponents?

I based the design off of my Chess map (I want to make a trilogy, but I need to think of another idea...). There are 42 territories, just like Classic. 4, 7, and 8 player games will start with 2 neutral territories; all other games will have no starting neutrals.

I know there's a bit of empty space; I'm just giving myself some room for additions. I can put the Word List on the left side of the rack if I need to.

You guessed it- this is based off of the game Boggle. Hopefully Big 'Bro won't mind.

And yes, I did put the words "john" and "blue" in there. I couldn't resist.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:54 am**

This sounds like it could be an interesting map, but it could get unfair really easily.
If I took the time and drew out a full map of where all the bonuses are, I could be unstoppable in speed games, because I could know exactly where to go while my opponents are still searching for a good word.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:00 am**

wcaclimbing wrote:This sounds like it could be an interesting map, but it could get unfair really easily.
If I took the time and drew out a full map of where all the bonuses are, I could be unstoppable in speed games, because I could know exactly where to go while my opponents are still searching for a good word.

After someone plays this map a few times, they'll get to know where some of the easy 3-letter words are, and it won't be that unfair. Besides, they're only worth 1 army. And, your opponents can easily spot when you have a bonus (unless it's a really obscure word... that's why I provided a word source).

It just takes a bit of quick thinking. In fact, a speed game would be like real Boggle. It might be even more exciting.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:08 am**

john9blue wrote:It just takes a bit of quick thinking. In fact, a speed game would be like real Boggle. It might be even more exciting.

No, the problem would be is if I looked through the XML of the map, took a copy of the image and circled all the bonuses.
Then I know exactly where all the bonuses are and I'd have a big advantage because the other players would still be looking for them.

Also, BOB tells me when someone is holding a bonus, so that gives an advantage to people using BOB, because it would reveal if someone took even the most obscure word bonus without any thought by the players.

I don't get the point of the bonus section. Are there really 6 and 7 letter bonuses on that map? I don't see any.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:46 am**

wcaclimbing wrote:No, the problem would be is if I looked through the XML of the map, took a copy of the image and circled all the bonuses.
Then I know exactly where all the bonuses are and I'd have a big advantage because the other players would still be looking for them.

You would have to put a hell of a lot of time into circling all of those bonuses. There will be hundreds. Haven't you ever played Boggle? It only takes a few seconds to find a word.

wcaclimbing wrote:Also, BOB tells me when someone is holding a bonus, so that gives an advantage to people using BOB, because it would reveal if someone took even the most obscure word bonus without any thought by the players.

BOB gives an advantage no matter what map you're playing on. It's easy to search Google for "The Official Tournament And Club Word List". We can even revert to a shorter word list with less obscure words if we need to.

wcaclimbing wrote:I don't get the point of the bonus section. Are there really 6 and 7 letter bonuses on that map? I don't see any.

Heh, well, I kind of just put random letters there and tried to space them out well. Every letter is there at least once, and there are lots of vowels. There may need to be a community effort to find all of the words, and even if we miss one, that's what beta is for.

This map is not as unfair as you seem to think it is. There is an extremely short learning curve. The inherent advantage given to an experienced player, or even a player who knows all the bonuses, is less than some of the more complex maps on CC.

I try, first and foremost, to make unique maps that are fun. I see too many cookie-cutter maps being pumped out that bring nothing new to the table. A map like this will offer a unique experience each time you play.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:49 am**

this map would be sooo unfair for people who don't speak english

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:52 am**

ps. the only 7 letter word i found after a brief look at the map was imitate

pps. found cremated

and with that, i'll be done for the night.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:00 am**

Xylophone ftw.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:11 am**

what if I hold a word such as AXE...
There are 4 As on the board, 2 Xs, and 3 Es.
So how many points would I get for that?
could I hold AXE twice, because there are enough letters for it? Or would I just get a huge bonus for holding all of those?

4A x 2X x 3E x 1point = 24 armies
I would get 24 armies if it gave me a bonus for each possible combination of the letters to hold AXE.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:29 am**

wcaclimbing wrote:what if I hold a word such as AXE...
There are 4 As on the board, 2 Xs, and 3 Es.
So how many points would I get for that?
could I hold AXE twice, because there are enough letters for it? Or would I just get a huge bonus for holding all of those?

4A x 2X x 3E x 1point = 24 armies
I would get 24 armies if it gave me a bonus for each possible combination of the letters to hold AXE.

Nope, that's not how this works...

There is only one "AXE" on the board. The other "AX" does not connect to an "E", so you can't form the word. You could use the "L" that's touching the "A" to form the word "LAX", though. You can't just make words out of any three letters... that would be too easy, lol.

Maybe I should use that extra space for a visual example...

Okay, some of the 3 letter words on the OWL are just ridiculous. Like these:

OWL wrote:AAL
AAS
ABA
ABO
ABY
ADZ
AFF
AGA
AIN
AIS
AIT

...Yeah, you get the idea. Now I'm going to use the Cambridge Dictionary Of American English.

Also, don't start any serious word hunting until I can make sure that every board space contributes to at least a few words.

You've got a good eye though, WS88. 8-)

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:50 pm**

I see your working with American English, I would remove any words that are unique to america/spelled differently or it could be hugely annoying.

Also a map that is not very good for players who dont have their first language as English.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:12 pm**

Balsiefen wrote:I see your working with American English, I would remove any words that are unique to america/spelled differently or it could be hugely annoying.

Also a map that is not very good for players who dont have their first language as English.

?!

why is British English more correct than American English? Most of the worlds popculture stems from the US, so people are more likely to be familiar with words of American origin.

As for the map, I'm not quiet sure about the gameplay. I like that words (continents) can overlap, but otherwise its a bit too straight-forward; same amount of boarders for most territories with the exception of edge territories.I think you should add a row and a collumn of words to add some territories.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:44 pm**

Balsiefen wrote:I see your working with American English, I would remove any words that are unique to america/spelled differently or it could be hugely annoying.

Also a map that is not very good for players who dont have their first language as English.

That's why I provided a word source... I don't want people complaining because "colour" and "flavour" aren't on the list.

I'll try to only include words that have universal English spelling.

crosseout wrote:?!

why is British English more correct than American English? Most of the worlds popculture stems from the US, so people are more likely to be familiar with words of American origin.

As for the map, I'm not quiet sure about the gameplay. I like that words (continents) can overlap, but otherwise its a bit too straight-forward; same amount of boarders for most territories with the exception of edge territories.I think you should add a row and a collumn of words to add some territories.

42 is plenty... people can make lots of words out of the normal 4x4 grid in Boggle. Ideally, each letter should belong to a few words.

And, if you look at the maps currently in the Final Forge, I'd say this map is a lot less "straight-forward". The fact that each territory has the same number of borders and the continents have consistent bonuses (2t-5) just means that it's well balanced.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:05 pm**

And, if you look at the maps currently in the Final Forge, I'd say this map is a lot less "straight-forward". The fact that each territory has the same number of borders and the continents have consistent bonuses (2t-5) just means that it's well balanced.

I disagree. Your random placement has put some rarer letters at the edge of the board (Qu, K, X, W) which makes it a lot harder to build a word with them... and the bonus-distribution is not going to be even either. I really think you're going to struggle to balance this one out

There's more to it than simply having equity of attack...

I'm not too sure why There may need to be a community effort to find all of the words, and even if we miss one, that's what beta is for.

Knowing where all the bonuses are is going to be crucial for making this map work, and I think you have a bigger mountain ahead of you than you anticipate...

Once the map has been finished, every possible word combination will have to be included as a continent in the XML. Then you'll need to figure out how you're going to deal with overlapping or cumulative bonuses...

The easiest question is this: say I hold AXE and NIL... Is that going to count as 2x3-letter bonuses, or do you only get one bonus?

More complex questions arise from combinations... If I were to hold TNIL on the top row, RE from the second row, and the S from the third row, I would be able to make any/all of the following (and possibly some more)
NIL, LIE, TEN, NET, SET, LINT, TERN, LINE, REIN, LINES, LINER

How are you going to decide which of the bonuses are permissible? Once you've done that, you'll need to calculate all the overrides etc...

You would have to put a hell of a lot of time into circling all of those bonuses.

Debatable - especially as this would need to have been done first to make the map playable.

It just takes a bit of quick thinking. In fact, a speed game would be like real Boggle. It might be even more exciting.

The difference being that in games like Boggle, the letters are jumbled up for every round of every game. Here, the board will remain static, and will probably boil down to knowing which the valuable combos are... There will be a region of the board that gives easiest access to the highest bonus combinations, and knowing that will give you a distinct advantage.

BOB gives an advantage no matter what map you're playing on

That is debatable - but here, it will definitely do so, as ALL of the bonus areas will not be clearly visible to any casual observer.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:35 pm**

MrBenn wrote:I disagree. Your random placement has put some rarer letters at the edge of the board (Qu, K, X, W) which makes it a lot harder to build a word with them... and the bonus-distribution is not going to be even either. I really think you're going to struggle to balance this one out There's more to it than simply having equity of attack...

I will have to find a good setup for the letters. I'd rather people focused on the idea for now.

MrBenn wrote:Knowing where all the bonuses are is going to be crucial for making this map work, and I think you have a bigger mountain ahead of you than you anticipate...

Once the map has been finished, every possible word combination will have to be included as a continent in the XML. Then you'll need to figure out how you're going to deal with overlapping or cumulative bonuses...

The easiest question is this: say I hold AXE and NIL... Is that going to count as 2x3-letter bonuses, or do you only get one bonus?

"AXE" and "NIL" are two separate words, so you get two 3 letter bonuses (only two armies).

This isn't much for six territories, but then again, people won't be motivated to break it. Also, it drives people to find bigger and bigger words.

MrBenn wrote:More complex questions arise from combinations... If I were to hold TNIL on the top row, RE from the second row, and the S from the third row, I would be able to make any/all of the following (and possibly some more)
NIL, LIE, TEN, NET, SET, LINT, TERN, LINE, REIN, LINES, LINER

How are you going to decide which of the bonuses are permissible? Once you've done that, you'll need to calculate all the overrides etc...

I need to put an example, apparently. I thought I made the instructions clearer...

It says in the instructions that "two words can only share one letter". You couldn't have "NIL" and "LIE", since they share two letters. You could have "NET", "TAR", and "RED", though, since each word only shares one letter with the other words.

MrBenn wrote:The difference being that in games like Boggle, the letters are jumbled up for every round of every game. Here, the board will remain static, and will probably boil down to knowing which the valuable combos are... There will be a region of the board that gives easiest access to the highest bonus combinations, and knowing that will give you a distinct advantage.

I'm going to try and make a board that is as balanced as possible. It's easy to change a letter or two if we have to.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:16 pm**

or palindromes, such as TON and NOT. how would you reward that? what would you name that bonus, ton or not?
This map just seems like a nightmare to balance out because of all the different possibilities and conflicts.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:10 pm**

The second draft is up.

Changes:
-Outer tray beveled instead of stroked
-Cube shadows darkened
-Dictionary website put on the side of the tray
-Dictionary cited in the instructions box
-Example words and tray are shown, with their bonus values
-Letters changed

Now, each letter on the edge is part of several words. The example should clear up any confusion about the bonuses.

wcaclimbing wrote:or palindromes, such as TON and NOT. how would you reward that? what would you name that bonus, ton or not?
This map just seems like a nightmare to balance out because of all the different possibilities and conflicts.

Doesn't matter.

I believe XML works by simply identifying the countries needed for the continent. So, if someone was going for "NOW", they would get "OWN" instead. The starting letter and subsequent letters will be the ones higher and to the left in case of a conflict (because that's how English is read).

Finding all of the words will not be that hard. Just start with a letter and make a tree of all possible paths. It takes about 1 second to recognize a word, so assuming the squares have 7 borders on average, that's 42(7^2+7^3+7^4) = 2793 seconds, or less than an hour, for words that are 5 letters or less. Going down every 5 letter path will probably make it easy to spot words that are 6 letters or more. All in all, it will probably take only a few hours.

Also, I forgot to mention that the Qu counts as two letters, like in Boggle. "QUAD" is four letters, "QUART" and "QUEST" are five letters, and "QUESTION" is eight letters.

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:07 am**

longest i've found so far is questioned.... but i'll be looking, and back later

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:29 pm**

Good work on the map so far. I see great potential in this map

In order to avoid unbalanced starting positions, each player should have a fixed starting position away from the letters with the ability to attack some or all of the letters.

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:46 am**

Emperor_Metalman wrote:Good work on the map so far. I see great potential in this map

In order to avoid unbalanced starting positions, each player should have a fixed starting position away from the letters with the ability to attack some or all of the letters.

I thought about that. The problem becomes whether you can eliminate the other players. There would have to be some way for the starting positions to attack each other. If there's not some kind of neutral barrier between them, there could be some unfair early eliminations.

I think it would be more fun to have to actually find words based on your starting position. Otherwise, in a game of experienced players, everyone will be going for the spots on the map with the most words, and it becomes a dice war.

Is there a way that you can get around this?

Posted: **Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:31 pm**

john9blue wrote:
Emperor_Metalman wrote:Good work on the map so far. I see great potential in this map

In order to avoid unbalanced starting positions, each player should have a fixed starting position away from the letters with the ability to attack some or all of the letters.

I thought about that. The problem becomes whether you can eliminate the other players. There would have to be some way for the starting positions to attack each other. If there's not some kind of neutral barrier between them, there could be some unfair early eliminations.
Having neutrals between the starting positions will work. Or you could just make the objective to conquer all the letters

I think it would be more fun to have to actually find words based on your starting position. Otherwise, in a game of experienced players, everyone will be going for the spots on the map with the most words, and it becomes a dice war.
Multiple players fighting over one spot would not happen because then other players would gain easy bonuses by going for a less contested area of the map.

Is there a way that you can get around this?

Posted: **Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:16 pm**

Emperor_Metalman wrote:Having neutrals between the starting positions will work. Or you could just make the objective to conquer all the letters

Holding every letter for one turn against players who can attack any spot on the map would be really hard. And, if there was a neutral barrier between players, large escalating games would work drastically differently. The card values would get enormous, until someone decided to break the barrier. Then, it all just depends on the dice. Not a very fair game if you ask me.

Emperor_Metalman wrote: Multiple players fighting over one spot would not happen because then other players would gain easy bonuses by going for a less contested area of the map.

Then the person who goes first will have an advantage if they know the spot on the map with the most words. It's like starting off with 3 on Australia, except much less obvious and much easier to counter.

Posted: **Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:25 pm**

[Moved]

It would appear that development of this map has stalled. If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the CAs will be able to help put the thread back into the Foundry system, after an update has been made. ;-)

Mr B

Conquer Club

Baffle (12/15/08: Draft 2 Page 2)

Baffle (12/15/08: Draft 2 Page 2)

Re: Baffle

Re: Baffle

Re: Baffle

Re: Baffle

Re: Baffle

Re: Baffle

Re: Baffle

Re: Baffle (12/15/08 Draft 1 Page 1)

Re: Baffle (12/15/08 Draft 1 Page 1)

Re: Baffle (12/15/08 Draft 1 Page 1)

Re: Baffle (12/15/08 Draft 1 Page 1)

Re: Baffle (12/15/08 Draft 1 Page 1)

Re: Baffle (12/15/08 Draft 1 Page 1)

Re: Baffle (12/15/08 Draft 1 Page 1)

Re: Baffle (12/15/08 Draft 1 Page 1)

Re: Baffle (12/15/08 Draft 1 Page 1)

Re: Baffle (12/15/08: Draft 2 Page 2)

Re: Baffle (12/15/08: Draft 2 Page 2)

Re: Baffle (12/15/08: Draft 2 Page 2)

Re: Baffle (12/15/08: Draft 2 Page 2)

Re: Baffle (12/15/08: Draft 2 Page 2)

Re: Baffle (12/15/08: Draft 2 Page 2)