Conquer Club

The Great Eagle River, Rev 1
Ok, it's been a while since I had a chance to look at this. Here's my first revisions based on the comments above. Love to hear your feedback.

Thanks,

J




ORIGINAL
The Great Eagle River - Just a working title.


Hello,

My name is Jesse and I am kind of new around here. This is the first draft of my first map. Below are some notes about the idea behind it, why I think it is unique, and about some of the XML rules:

Purpose:
I set out to creat a map that was both visually attractive and easily playable. The more complex maps are fun, but someitmes it's nice to play a more straight forward game.

However, there are a few tricks behind this map. I've set up the XML to allow attackers who border the river to attack either accross, or down stream. Thus, the terrain effects game play for a little twist. Since this is the case, the Delta region has an extra high bonus, since it would be hard to hold.

Another place where the landscape effects the game is at H01 in the Highlands. This position can make attacks down the mountainside, but those at the bottom in E07 and E10 cannot mount an attack up the cliff.

One more obvious observation is that I didn't paint borders, but rather showed the paths of possible land attacks with the connecting lines. With the exception of the river, standard barriers apply, rocks, trees, etc...

Here's the XML. I hope it's in the right order:

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<map>
   <title>Terrepel</title>
   <smallwidth>600</smallwidth>
   <smallheight>571</smallheight>
   <largewidth>800</largewidth>
   <largeheight>762</largeheight>
   <filetype>jpg</filetype>
      <continent>
      <name>Highlands</name>
      <bonus>5</bonus>
      <components>
            <territory>H01</territory>
         <territory>H02</territory>
         <territory>H03</territory>
         <territory>H04</territory>
         <territory>H05</territory>
         <territory>H06</territory>         
      </components>
   </continent>
   <continent>
      <name>Expanse</name>
      <bonus>9</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>E01</territory>
         <territory>E02</territory>
         <territory>E03</territory>
         <territory>E04</territory>
         <territory>E05</territory>
         <territory>E06</territory>
         <territory>E07</territory>
         <territory>E08</territory>
         <territory>E09</territory>
         <territory>E10</territory>
         <territory>E11</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>
      <continent>
      <name>Delta</name>
      <bonus>9</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>D01</territory>
         <territory>D02</territory>
         <territory>D03</territory>
         <territory>D04</territory>
         <territory>D05</territory>
         <territory>D06</territory>
         <territory>D07</territory>
         <territory>D08</territory>
         <territory>D09</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>
   <continent>
      <name>Wetlands</name>
      <bonus>3</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>W01</territory>
         <territory>W02</territory>
         <territory>W03</territory>
         <territory>W04</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>
   <continent>
      <name>Plains</name>
      <bonus>6</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>P01</territory>
         <territory>P02</territory>
         <territory>P03</territory>
         <territory>P04</territory>
         <territory>P05</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>
   <continent>
      <name>Dry_Summit</name>
      <bonus>3</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>S01</territory>
         <territory>S02</territory>
         <territory>S03</territory>
         <territory>S04</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>
   <territory>
      <name>H01</name>
      <borders>
         <border>H02</border>
         <border>E07</border>
         <border>E10</border>
      </borders>
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   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>H02</name>
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      </borders>
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   </territory>
   <territory>
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   </territory>   
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         <border>P04</border>
         <border>S01</border>
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>531</smallx>
         <smally>217</smally>
         <largex>709</largex>
         <largey>290</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   
   <territory>
      <name>P04</name>
      <borders>
         <border>P03</border>
         <border>P05</border>
         <border>S01</border>
         <border>S02</border>
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>474</smallx>
         <smally>337</smally>
         <largex>633</largex>
         <largey>451</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   
   <territory>
      <name>P05</name>
      <borders>
         <border>P04</border>
         <border>S02</border>
         <border>S03</border>
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>356</smallx>
         <smally>411</smally>
         <largex>475</largex>
         <largey>549</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   
   <territory>
      <name>S01</name>
      <borders>
         <border>S02</border>
         <border>P03</border>
         <border>P04</border>
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>550</smallx>
         <smally>341</smally>
         <largex>734</largex>
         <largey>455</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   
   <territory>
      <name>S02</name>
      <borders>
         <border>S01</border>
         <border>S03</border>
         <border>P04</border>
         <border>P05</border>
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>469</smallx>
         <smally>434</smally>
         <largex>626</largex>
         <largey>579</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   
   <territory>
      <name>S03</name>
      <borders>
         <border>S02</border>
         <border>S04</border>
         <border>P05</border>
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>409</smallx>
         <smally>516</smally>
         <largex>545</largex>
         <largey>688</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   
   <territory>
      <name>S04</name>
      <borders>
         <border>S03</border>
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>547</smallx>
         <smally>528</smally>
         <largex>730</largex>
         <largey>704</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   </map>



Thanks for looking it over! Big fan of Conquer Club!


Jesse

im not much of an xml guy, but i like the idea for gameplay and the graphics -some might say they need upgrading a bit, but i like them atm

only thing id say is to reduce the value of highlands as if you take all 6 then you only need to stack on H6 to hold it whereas on dry sumit you need to protect 3 of the 4 territories to get a measly 3 bonus

3mp3r0r wrote:im not much of an xml guy, but i like the idea for gameplay and the graphics -some might say they need upgrading a bit, but i like them atm

only thing id say is to reduce the value of highlands as if you take all 6 then you only need to stack on H6 to hold it whereas on dry sumit you need to protect 3 of the 4 territories to get a measly 3 bonus

Ahh. Good point. I'll make that change, but I'll wiat to see what else to change. Thanks for getting back so quick.

Looks like I have some time to spend with the map testing tool. All of my numbers are off. I thought the coords were top left pixel, but it was like bottom left or something like that.

hey jyor, this is a really nice effort for a first draft. Since you seem to be fairly well advanced I'm going to hope that you're ready for a bit of constructive criticism that I would normally reserve for a later draft...

As it currently is, a game on this map will be fun for only one player: the guy who grabs Highlands. That is the only region that can be defended early as it has only one border while everything else has at least three, and in the plains everything is a border. And +5 is a knock-out of a bonus for such a small region. Whoever nabs the highlands wins, because everybody else will be duking it out for the Plains and Summit. As it is the map could work for a two-player game in which the other player is able to couple Summit and Plains, which when coupled give you a +9 with only two borders.

Hmm, the Summit/Plains combo is troubling, actually... only one way in and out of that part of the map. I'd still rather start in the highlands, because once you hold 01 there's no looking back - easy progression without a rear guard to wrap up that bonus.

The river is a nice idea, but it will need a lot more explanation in both the legend and the map itself. You'll have to somehow indicate which way is down-stream. I at first assumed it is toward the delta, but now I see that little arm of the river that goes to nowhere, perhaps suggesting that it is a river source. You either have rivers to nowhere, or a strange up-river delta. I could probably read the XML and figure out who attacks whom, but 99% of your players won't know how to do that, so they'll just be guessing.

If the river indeed flows down, it seems that Delta 08 has nowhere to go. Dead-end territories are just frustrating. And if the river flows up, Delta 08 can't be attacked, which is even worse. Whoever starts there can't lose, leading to endless stalemate games.

The other element of the rivers is that you will need to explain exactly what you mean by "across" the river - are the Delta 3 and 4 across from each other? The 4 and 9 at the bottom of the map? And is the Delta 02 considered to be on the river?

You may also want to consider different territory nomenclature. I already blew a game on Feudal because I attacked one "6" when I thought I was attacking another "6" and here you've got multiple places where numbers border more than one of the same number. One of the "1" territories can attack three other 1s! I can see it now... "damn, I attacked 1 from 1, when I meant to hit 1!"

Finally, you will find that with every change you make to the map - and there will be plenty over the next few weeks as you navigate the Foundry - you will have to make a correspondong change to the XML. I would highly recommend that you set the XML aside for a while, since it is the last piece of this puzzle and the last element that we'll require from you. Work on the map and get it right, then pump out the code.

oaktown wrote:you're ready for a bit of constructive criticism

Thanks Oaktown. This is good stuff. Let me bounce a few proposals to address these issues off of you:

1. Highlands :: Could I solve this issue by a.) allowing attacks from E10 to H01, modifying the graphic to show continuity and b.) lowing the bonus for Highlands to 3?
2. One way in and out of Plains :: What if I put one territory in the forest that would represent the forest and would not be a part of any region? This territory could attack W02, W01, P05, and P04.
3. River direction :: The direction is from top right to bottom left (toward the delta). I'll cut that branch of the river to the end of the map. I'll try to come up with some way to show how attacks can be made using the river, and what attacks can be made. Maybe accross the river attacks just causes too much confusion.
4. Delta - Dead ends :: There were no dead ends, though D08 looks that way it was inteded to be able to attack D09. I could remove that branch of the river that goes between them and then draw a direct line.
5. Bonuses :: Do you have any general rule for what bonus to give a region based on number of territories and bordering threats?
6. Territory Names :: Do you think naming the territories

   H01

   or

   P04

   rather than just the numbers would do away with unnecessary confusion?
7. Title :: Any title suggestions?
8. XML :: Sorry for including this. I was under the impression that this was required for the map to be examined.

Thanks for the feed back. Before I go making any of these changes, I'd like to see if this is the direction you'd like me to go in.

Jesse

There's links to some bonus calculator spreadsheets in the mapmaking tools thread... These will help you get a starting point for rough bonus values, and can always be tweaked by the nature of how you want games to pan out.

Link to the mapmaking tools http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1410

Yup, I've been there. Good stuff on that page. But is there a general principal that one could go by to calculate bonus numbers? For instence, if a region has x territories but borders y territories from other regions the bonus should be z?

jyor0385 wrote:Yup, I've been there. Good stuff on that page. But is there a general principal that one could go by to calculate bonus numbers? For instence, if a region has x territories but borders y territories from other regions the bonus should be z?

Each of the Excel spreadsheets on the above link has a slightly different formula. Or you could come up with your own, as long as it is used consistently across the map. Every map will play slightly differently, and the value of a region will depend as much on it's stats as much as it will on how it will play with everything else on the map. On a map with four similarly-sized, small regions, you can pump their bonuses up a bit because you figure many players will have access to one of them - Portugal is a good example of this. On a map like this one with only one or two attractive starts you may want to scale down the bonuses of those smaller regions, since the player that is lucky enough to start in one of them shouldn't be given a free ticket to victory.

As for the specifics of what you should do next, that's entirely up to you. I was just trying to point out the trouble spots I saw. There are hundreds of ways you can address them; adding/redrawing connections, adjusting bonuses, breaking up large regions, planting some strategic starting neutrals, territories that bleed armies, bombardments, territories with auto-deployments, etc.

I would suggest that you first work out how you want the river to work - the river seems to be the most original aspect of this map, and how that eventually shakes down could shape the rest of the map. Just making the river work right and bringing clarity to its workings could take some time all by itself, but I think it would be worth it.

Excellent. Thanks for the feedback. I'll get to work on it. I didn't see in any of the XML tutorials how to allow "bleeding" or autogeneration of armies. I don't know that I would use this feature for this map, but it would be good to know how for the future. Is there a full list somewhere of all the commands the engine can handle?

[Moved]

It would appear that development of this map has stalled. If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the CAs will be able to help put the thread back into the Foundry system, after an update has been made.

Mr B

Hey MrBenn,

I just posted an update right before you moved it. I put a new revision right above the original. Please have another look. Thanks,

J

[Moved]

ian.

Thanks again!

Rev 1
Per request, I thought I'd add this as its own post as well.

Love to hear your feedback - Thanks!

j

Just looking at it in the browser makes me thing that the smaller version should be the larger one and an even smaller-yet version should be made.

j

jyor0385 wrote:Hey MrBenn,

I just posted an update right before you moved it. I put a new revision right above the original. Please have another look. Thanks,

J

I missed it, as there was nothing in the thread to say it had been updated - it really helps to add the update to the end of the thread, so people can follow the development through. The first post is important to help people new to a map when there are too many pages to read through the whole thread!

MrBenn wrote:I missed it, as there was...

Thanks, I'll be sure to do both. That makes sense. So beyond all that, any thoughts toward the map?

J

...anyone?...

Hello,

I have no experience at all in the mapmaking business, but since nobody is posting any replies...

I like the map, the river is a quite original idea and the gameplay isn't to difficult.

Glad you changed the possible entries to the highlands, because it would have caused endless stacking.
I would like to know why you haven't made that forest territory, because the plains and the dry summit are way to easely defendable. There are only two borders, and those borders are high upstream. Perhaps it would even be enough to just add a passage trough the forest, it doesn't has to be a special territory. And when you do that, perhaps add 1 to the bonus of the wetlands? 2 seems so little compared to the big continents tha get 7...

These are just my thoughts.... even if they don't help you out at all, it's just to show you that people are still interested in the map.

tauno wrote:I would like to know why you haven't made that forest territory, because the plains and the dry summit are way to easely defendable. There are only two borders, and those borders are high upstream. Perhaps it would even be enough to just add a passage trough the forest, it doesn't has to be a special territory. And when you do that, perhaps add 1 to the bonus of the wetlands? 2 seems so little compared to the big continents tha get 7...

Thanks tauno for looking it over. You've got a good point about the lack of borders into the wetlands/drys summit area. I'd like to keep the forests as "unpassable" since it would be to dificult to move an actual army through a forest. But what if I cut a little pass between the forest and the rocky area near the bottom of the map? That would allow for one more way in. The bonus was low because of the defensability (if it's so easliy defensable then it wouldn't be fair to have a large bonus). After creating the pass, I could bump the bonus up one (but I probably wouldn't want to go higher than that).

As I said, much appreciate your feedback.

jyor0385

Where is this place and why do you not make full territs, why are you using squares?

sailorseal wrote:Where is this place and why do you not make full territs, why are you using squares?

Thanks for taking a look. To answer your questions, the location is ficticious and I thought the borders might take away from the look. http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24037 is another example of where this has been done.

I see but could you make them blend a little better because they detract from the overall apeall

sailorseal wrote:I see but could you make them blend a little better because they detract from the overall apeall

I understand your point, but I'd like to here what some others think about it because the colors were carefully chosen to bring some seperation between regions. Any other opinions on this?